General Discussion Thread #4

[Deleted member 102539]

All the witnesses who will be called by either side should not allow loyalty or fear to stop them from coming forth with the absolute truth. There should be no hampering of witnesses now in a premeditated murder trial since that would be a serious offence in itself. A young woman's life has been violently taken, so why would any law abiding person want to hold back anything that would impede justice for the victim or her family. There are a minority of people on the social network or otherwise who will attack others no matter what they say or do but this should not deter anyone from being truthful and in doing so live their lives with a clear conscience.

Whiterum, of course and without question ST has to do her duty and will do so.

 

[Interested Bystander]

A little news that is new to me, possibly you too.

"Oscar Pistorius hires American forensic experts in bid to prove he didn't murder girlfriend"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-hires-forensic-experts-2327362#ixzz2glppd7Aw


Any idea why? My opinion is maybe he is unhappy with his forensice team in SA. Does this tell us anything or is it considered normal in his circumstances.

 

[Interested Bystander]

A little more meat on the bone in this report though we have no way of knowing whether any of these reports are truly accurate. The following is the last sentence of the piece - interesting!!

“Prosecution spokesman Medupe Simasiku told AP that the state’s assertion that Pistorius was on his plastic prosthetics “will be proven in court once the evidence is presented in court.”


http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013...ces-forensic-experts-reconstruct-crime-scene/

 

[Pisto_lius]

Some more reports regarding the news posted before by Interested Bystander - he was faster


Oscar Pistorius' defense team using American forensic experts to prepare for murder trial

Published October 01, 2013

Oscar Pistorius' lawyers have called in a team of American forensic experts to help prepare the double-amputee Olympian's defense for his murder trial next year.

Pistorius' spokeswoman, Anneliese Burgess, says the specialists from the U.S. are currently in South Africa working with the athlete's lawyers.

Burges said she couldn't give details of the forensic team's identities or areas of expertise. She told The Associated Press it is "very standard practice to work with specialists from various fields in preparation for any trial."

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/...d:+foxnews/sports+(Internal+-+Sports+-+Mixed)

Forensics scour Oscar Pistorius' home and toilet door

October 03, 2013

FORENSIC experts working for Oscar Pistorius have visited the double-amputee Olympian's upscale villa where he shot and killed his girlfriend, examining the toilet door through which the fatal shots were fired, police say.

The South African Police Service said in a statement today the specialists made prior arrangements with police to visit the athlete's house on Monday in Pretoria, where model and reality TV star Reeva Steenkamp was shot and killed on February 14.

[….]

The visit suggests that the toilet door will form a key part of the evidence in the trial.

[….]

It was the second time investigators acting for Pistorius had visited the scene accompanied by the police's team, the statement said.

Police also said Pistorius' villa in the gated Silverwoods estate in the eastern suburbs of the South African capital was "no longer a crime scene and was handed back to him long ago".

The investigating officer and a police ballistics expert were present while Pistorius' forensic team carried out their work on Monday. Police said no other physical evidence was examined.

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/f.../story-fndir2ev-1226732558374?from=public_rss

Related reports

Oscar Pistorius’ Home Visited By Forensic Team
http://www.dailyguideghana.com/?p=97457

Oscar Pistorius' defence examine scene
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/9242336/Oscar-Pistorius-defence-examine-scene

Oscar Pistorius investigators focus on bathroom door
http://metronews.ca/news/world/813547/pistorius-investigators-focus-on-toilet-door/

SA polisie help Oscar se forensiese spesialiste
http://www.beeld.com/nuus/2013-10-03-sa-polisie-help-oscar-se-forensiese-spesialiste
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[Pisto_lius]

A little news that is new to me, possibly you too.

"Oscar Pistorius hires American forensic experts in bid to prove he didn't murder girlfriend"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-hires-forensic-experts-2327362#ixzz2glppd7Aw


Any idea why? My opinion is maybe he is unhappy with his forensice team in SA. Does this tell us anything or is it considered normal in his circumstances.

BIB - Maybe you're right and he's unhappy with his forensic team in SA

But for me, at present, it appears as if his defence is still standing on feet of clay - much more than they admitted before.

Roux said (in BH) his forensic experts went through the toilet carefully on the afternoon after the shooting. At this time the toilet door wasn't moved (by Botha) so they could see the whole original crime scene including the holes in the door.

Didn't they made their own photos of this key part of the evidence? And didn't they measured the hight of the bullet holes this day?

The fact they focus on the door eight months after the shooting by the help of a foreign forensic team can only mean, they know that the version they gave in OP's affidavit isn't convincing. And now they are desperately looking for another explanation.


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[Pisto_lius]

Supplement to the above item:

And what's about the "leaked ballistics report" that claimed on August 18th "ballistics evidence now backs up Mr Pistorius’s claim that he was on his stumps" ?

The latest claim in the sensational case is reportedly made in a leaked ballistics report that is said to form part of the police investigations dossier handed to Mr Pistorius’s defence team last week.

[.....]

According to a report in the Sunday Times, ballistics evidence now backs up Mr Pistorius’s claim that he was on his stumps.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-prosthetic-legs-when-he-shot-girlfriend.html

Already at the time I had doubts as to this reports and now it seems I was right - this was (not the first) untruthful report leaked by OP's DT for their benefit.

A trial by media? Yes ! But initiated only by the DT, not by prosecutors or others.


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[whiterum]

A little news that is new to me, possibly you too.

"Oscar Pistorius hires American forensic experts in bid to prove he didn't murder girlfriend"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-hires-forensic-experts-2327362#ixzz2glppd7Aw


Any idea why? My opinion is maybe he is unhappy with his forensice team in SA. Does this tell us anything or is it considered normal in his circumstances.

Maybe his forensic team cannot dispute that he was on his prosthetics and he is demanding a second opinion lol. I also think they are worried because if it can be proven as Botha originally determined that he was on his prosthetics, he will be proven a liar. If proven a liar on this point, in order to claim he felt vulnerable, then his entire implausible story will collapse around his ears!

 

[Interested Bystander]

One wonders, given the current statement by Medupe Simasiku, whether his SA forensic team have told him that the evidence for him wearing his prosthetics is overwhelming and he is, therefore, clutching at straws with a new team.

 

[whiterum]

One wonders, given the current statement by Medupe Simasiku, whether his SA forensic team have told him that the evidence for him wearing his prosthetics is overwhelming and he is, therefore, clutching at straws with a new team.

The only thing his DT could not examine at the time his affidavit was prepared was the toilet door because Botha had it removed before the DT examined the crime scene. So maybe they had to take OP at his word on that point LOL .

 

[whiterum]

Supplement to the above item:

And what's about the "leaked ballistics report" that claimed on August 18th "ballistics evidence now backs up Mr Pistorius’s claim that he was on his stumps" ?




Already at the time I had doubts as to this reports and now it seems I was right - this was (not the first) untruthful report leaked by OP's DT for their benefit.

A trial by media? Yes ! But initiated only by the DT, not by prosecutors or others.


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Exactly, you cannot believe anything in the media reports, the so-called leaks from unnamed police sources, ballistic experts etc. written as if they were officially proven fact. All appear to be in favour of OP of course, so there is no doubt as to the identity of the nameless source behind these lies.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Some more detailed information regarding OP's US "assistance team":


SAPS assisted Pistorius's US forensic investigation team

US forensic investigators appointed by murder-accused Paralympian and Olympian Oscar Pistorius's defence team were assisted by South African police when examining evidence, the police said on Thursday.

[…..]

Makgale said Pistorius's investigators visited the scene of the crime, Silverwood Estate, Pistorius's home at the time, on Monday. They had made arrangements with the police beforehand.

"The purpose of this visit was to enable them to have access to the toilet door and to reconstruct the crime scene."

The investigating officer and a ballistic expert from the police were present.

[…..]

Makgale said that Pistorius's team was given controlled access to the evidence.

"The forensic team of Mr Pistorius did not take any evidence from the [South African Police Service] storage facilities nor did they have any evidence in their sole possession at any time.

"In terms of South African law, the state is however obliged to make any exhibit or evidence in its possession available to an accused or defence council, upon request, in order for the accused to prepare for his or her defence."

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-10-03-saps-assisted-pistoriuss-us-forensic-investigators

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[Pisto_lius]

And here is a short video - published on 01.10.2013, reporting by Karyn Maughan:

A team of US forensic experts has attempted to recreate the scene at Oscar Pistorius's home on the day Reeva Steenkamp was killed. The team, which Pistorius hired, will return to America to compile a report that the Pistorius family believes will clear his name.

US crime scene experts recreate Reeva Steenkamp's last moments - YouTube
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[Interested Bystander]

And here is a short video - published on 01.10.2013, reporting by Karyn Maughan:




US crime scene experts recreate Reeva Steenkamp's last moments - YouTube
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Anyone wish to comment on the measurements given in the video? I am not quite sure exactly to what they are referring Given the variation between the lowest and highest it would seem that OP would have had to be wearing his prostheses for the highest but not the lowest. Are the measurements where bullets entered the door or from the origin of the shot? Was the lowest shot a clever afterthought? I am assuming here he would have been using one outstretched arm supported by the other as in a fairly typical firing range exercise. I maybe really off course here as I have absolutely no experience of using a firearm. Anyone have experience of firing ranges, which (as far as we know) is where he seemed to do all his practising? We know his height from the Wiki on him. At what height would he be firing if wearing his prostheses? Nowhere can I find his height without prostheses.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Anyone wish to comment on the measurements given in the video? I am not quite sure exactly to what they are referring Given the variation between the lowest and highest it would seem that OP would have had to be wearing his prostheses for the highest but not the lowest. Are the measurements where bullets entered the door or from the origin of the shot? Was the lowest shot a clever afterthought? I am assuming here he would have been using one outstretched arm supported by the other as in a fairly typical firing range exercise. I maybe really off course here as I have absolutely no experience of using a firearm. Anyone have experience of firing ranges, which (as far as we know) is where he seemed to do all his practising? We know his height from the Wiki on him. At what height would he be firing if wearing his prostheses? Nowhere can I find his height without prostheses.

1. Until now no one knows the exact height of each of the bullet holes - and because there are four bullet holes in the door I assume every hole would show a different height.

The crime scene photos only showed two of the bullet holes and these two holes show different heights.

It could be the other two holes are close beside this two holes but it also could be they are higher or lower - no one knows.

Given Reeva's wounds at her head and her hip theoretically there should be a difference of around 60 cm in the heights of the holes (only my personal estimate).

But if OP changed the angles of his shots during he fired, the bullet holes could equally well been close to each other and could nevertheless hit Reeva's head and hip.


2. Maybe I'm wrong but as I understand the measurements given in the video

a) the elevation of 1.84 m (6 ft 1⁄2 in) means OP's body height WHITH prostheses

His representatives say Pistorius always stands 1.84 meters, whether racing or not [.....]

http://summergames.ap.org/article/column-history-maker-pistorius-hypocrite-too

b) the mentioned height of 1.75 m could therefore be the height of the bullet holes one would expect if OP wore his prostheses.

c) the mentioned height of 1.35 m could be the height of the bullet holes one would expect if OP DIDN'T wear his prostheses.

But as I said before: until now no one knows the exact height of each of the bullet holes and for this reason I guess the measurements given in the video are nothing more than speculations made by eNCAnews.



Finally - this picture of Reeva at a firing range shows her when shooting with a pistol similar to the one that OP used to kill her

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[Pisto_lius]

I found this very interesting detail of Botha's BH testimony regarding the shots that I never heard or read in this form before:

But Detective Warrant Officer Hilton Botha, a 16-year police veteran, said the trajectory of the bullets showed the gun was fired pointed down and from a height of five feet.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/...n-alleged-fight-at-blade-runner-bail-hearing/

Further report with the same detail
http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2013/02/oscar-pistorius-bail-hearing-reeva-steenkamp-video-photos/

If it's true that the shots went through the door at a height of five feet this also would fit to this information

Sprinting height – 6ft 1in (185.4cm)
Everyday walking height – 6ft 1in (185.4cm)
Blade: 42cm (measured in a straight line from top of blade to floor)
Height he is allowed to run at – 6ft 3in (190.5cm)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...ebate-rages-Oscar-Pistorius-blades-claim.html

Even if this above information indicates his body height 1,4cm higher than OP's representatives say, one can assume that his (normal) prosthetic legs would have nearly the same length as his blades. And that would mean OP's body height would be maximum 145cm when he is on his stumps.


This raises a new question for me:

OP had dated Reeva for only two and a half months. Had he become so comfortable with her despite this short space of time that he was willing to let her see him moving around his home on his stumps with such reduced mobility that he felt himself to be extremely vulnerable without his prosthetic legs (like he said in his affidavit)? I doubt it.


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[Lemon Tree]

Snipped for brevity:
...Even if this above information indicates his body height 1,4cm higher than OP's representatives say, one can assume that his (normal) prosthetic legs would have nearly the same length as his blades. And that would mean OP's body height would be maximum 145cm when he is on his stumps.

OP's stumps extend quite far into his blades, so I think OP may be ~20cm taller (165cm) if he is standing on the tip of his stumps, but if he's standing on his knees then 145cm is more likely.

 

[Pisto_lius]

OP's stumps extend quite far into his blades, so I think OP may be ~20cm taller (165cm) if he is standing on the tip of his stumps, but if he's standing on his knees then 145cm is more likely.

I appreciate your well reasoned objection and agree with you that OP's stumps extend rather far into his blades.

But as can be seen at this picture



his stumps below the knees are very thin and it needs an internal lining of his blades/prothesis or wrapping for a safe fixation of the stumps.

Furthermore, there seems to be a physiologically factor: it looks like his stumps don't have sufficient muscles to stand (and move) on the tip of them.

The next picture seems to confirm that OP moves/stands on his knees




Finally, the last picture confirms my speculation that his (normal) prosthetic legs have nearly the same length as his blades




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[Estelle]

My gut feeling is that OP was on his prosthetic legs when he fired the shots as IMO they never went to bed as they had been arguing all night.

 

[Interested Bystander]

My gut feeling is that OP was on his prosthetic legs when he fired the shots as IMO they never went to bed as they had been arguing all night.

I agree 100 per cent. Interesting that after playing down the closet door issue, the PT team now say that they are confident he was on his prosthetics. Clever move to take the heat out of that situation at the beginning and reintroduce it now, IMO. The DT may well have been taken by surprise and now find the need to fly in experts to try to make their case for OP's quite unbelievable affidavit.

 

[Estelle]

I agree 100 per cent. Interesting that after playing down the closet door issue, the PT team now say that they are confident he was on his prosthetics. Clever move to take the heat out of that situation at the beginning and reintroduce it now, IMO. The DT may well have been taken by surprise and now find the need to fly in experts to try to make their case for OP's quite unbelievable affidavit.

Otherwise, if I was the prosecution, I would argue that he knelt down to fire the shots to pretend that he was not on his prosthetics.