George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #2

[iluvmua]

Don't forget she didn't give her story to Crump until 3 weeks after the incident if I remember correctly (when the story blew up).

That's correct

Rachel also refused interviews with LE.

 

[Nymeria]

I don't believe that. Nose injuries and head injuries always look worse the next day. I had a kid who got hit in the head with a bat last year at little league. Kids swung and had no idea DS was coming out of the dug out. It looked bad that day.. It looked much worse the next!

I believe his injuries are completely consistent with what he looked like that night and what he reported happened.

Nothing you have to believe, again I was just supposing :fence:

My point also was that what if his injuries were not that bad to begin with, and he did things overnight to make them look much worse. *NOT SAYING HE DID THIS*

I recall seeing some pictures but isn't there issue with the timing of when they were taken? Some at scene, some at police station?
I would like to see all pics taken in a timeline to get a better grip on how bad they all are.

Are there any theories out there that GZ could have slipped in a scuffle on the wet grass and fell back on the sidewalk and hit the back of his head?
That scenario keeps popping into my head.
But if someone actually saw TM hitting his head on cement I guess that can not be the case....waiting anxiously to hear from "John".

 

[corundogs]

So if the girlfriend lied about something...she can't be found credible.

We know GZ lied about something...so he can't be found credible.

Right?

 

[DIBSY]

I understand what you are saying, but since TM is the one that is dead, IMHO, he also had reason to fear for his life. How do we know that TM did not see the gun and feel terrified of a strange man with a gun?

Of course and I believe that is exactly why TM began to scream. He knew the man who was pursuing him with a large gun meant to shoot him. He was alone, unarmed and in a hopeless situation. He desparatgely needed help.

TM made a thoroughly innocent trip to the 7/11. The store clerk certainly wasn't suspicious of him or his childish purchase of tea and candy. TM paid in cash and was in the process of going back to his family home when GZ decided to go after him with a gun. He could have left the fire arm in the truck given he had no reason to fear a guy who didn't pay any attention to him, until after GZ targetted him.

On HLN last night they established from evidence that TM was actually standing on his father's/ father's girlfriend's property when GZ confronted him. Most likely he stopped under the tree to ascertain why he was being watched by a stranger. For all TM knew, GZ was the one who didn't belong in the neighborhood. TM may have thought GZ was a <modsnip> who might possibly cause troubles for his family as GZ was hanging about their home.

The tree on his family's property provided a slight respite from the rain...but TM was wearing a hoodie and that gave him protection against the wet as well, to some degree...Then too there are those of us who love the rain and like to be out in it. Yet I think he was concerned about his family when GZ focused on him on their property.

BTW, I think GZ phoned 911 again ( it was a longstanding habit of his ) to be sure he got the credit for capturing or taking down the " bad guy."

 

[m00c0w]

IANAL, but I think it's different in Florida and the burden of proof is still on the prosecution.

Link:

In Florida, once self-defense is invoked, the burden is on the prosecution to disprove the claim.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/...eeping-self-defense-laws-just-like-florida’s/

Yeah. There is some burden on the defense to give a plausible story and make it convincing, but the prosecution still ultimately has to show that it was a malicious murder.

IMO

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Popping in again to say: at this point in the court proceeding and in seeing GZ injuries, I do believe he was physically harmed during this encounter.

I'd also like to state that not every influction of injury will result in blood or broken bones. One bash to the back if the head will not automatically result in a bloody injury. It may, it may not.

Not every punch in the face will result in a bloody or broken nose.

Also, it would only take one injury to make me respond in defense. Not multiple. Did TM show any other injury, other than the gunshot wound? If not, why would we presume that TM is screaming for help? People who are winning a fight wouldn't normally scream for help, in my estimation. I'm presuming that the injuries to GZ would have occurred before the shot and not after.

How long did it take for to police to arrive from the time of the gunshot? I assume they were already on their way due to GZ's initial call.

Just thinking out loud here. I'm trying to keep a really open mind. I sometimes see that there are a lot of people that would argue with a video of a crime because it doesn't fit the position that they have passionately defended (I've been guilty of that too - both for and against a defendant). So I reserve defending my opinion before hearing everything. Saving face is sometimes more important than objectively evaluating, listening and learning. I do not pre-suppose that I know everything there is to know!

Thanks for all the opinions and links, you guys rock!

yes. And this.. HE knows police are on the way.. for all he knows they are watching him from the walk and are coming in his direction. He has no idea what they could have seen, which is why his telling of events has a lot of credibility for me.

 

[iluvmua]

Nothing you have to believe, again I was just supposing :fence:

My point also was that what if his injuries were not that bad to begin with, and he did things overnight to make them look much worse. *NOT SAYING HE DID THIS*

I recall seeing some pictures but isn't there issue with the timing of when they were taken? Some at scene, some at police station?
I would like to see all pics taken in a timeline to get a better grip on how bad they all are.

Are there any theories out there that GZ could have slipped in a scuffle on the wet grass and fell back on the sidewalk and hit the back of his head?
That scenario keeps popping into my head.
But if someone actually saw TM hitting his head on cement I guess that can not be the case....waiting anxiously to hear from "John".

there is no evidence to suggest that happened.

 

[gxm]

So if the girlfriend lied about something...she can't be found credible.

We know GZ lied about something...so he can't be found credible.

Right?

I seriously doubt GZ will be testifying. We don't have to believe him. If the prosecution can't prove beyond a reasonable that GZ did not act in self defense then, by law, he should be found not guilty.

ETA: Sheaffer believes that GZ will take the stand.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

This is what I don't think people take into account. HE Called the police. He knows they are coming. They could be there already.. So why would he start something.

He wouldn't. It makes no sense.

 

[popsicle]

Of course and I believe that is exactly why TM began to scream. He knew the man who was pursuing him with a large gun meant to shoot him. He was alone, unarmed and in a hopeless situation. He desparatgely needed help.

TM made a thoroughly innocent trip to the 7/11. The store clerk certainly wasn't suspicious of him or his childish purchase of tea and candy. TM paid in cash and was in the process of going back to his family home when GZ decided to go after him with a gun. He could have left the fire arm in the truck given he had no reason to fear a guy who didn't pay any attention to him, until after GZ targetted him.

On HLN last night they established from evidence that TM was actually standing on his father's/ father's girlfriend's property when GZ confronted him. Most likely he stopped under the tree to ascertain why he was being watched by a stranger. For all TM knew, GZ was the one who didn't belong in the neighborhood. TM may have thought GZ was a <modsnip> who might possibly cause troubles for his family as GZ was hanging about their home.

The tree on his family's property provided a slight respite from the rain...but TM was wearing a hoodie and that gave him protection against the wet as well, to some degree...Then too there are those of us who love the rain and like to be out in it. Yet I think he was concerned about his family when GZ focused on him on their property.

BTW, I think GZ phoned 911 again ( it was a longstanding habit of his ) to be sure he got the credit for capturing or taking down the " bad guy."

Do you have links for any of that or is it all HLN?

 

[m00c0w]

Of course and I believe that is exactly why TM began to scream. He knew the man who was pursuing him with a large gun meant to shoot him. He was alone, unarmed and in a hopeless situation. He desparatgely needed help.

What evidence is there that Zimmerman's weapon was visible at any point before he was allegedly on the ground with his head being pounded into concrete?

TM made a thoroughly innocent trip to the 7/11. The store clerk certainly wasn't suspicious of him or his childish purchase of tea and candy. TM paid in cash and was in the process of going back to his family home when GZ decided to go after him with a gun. He could have left the fire arm in the truck given he had no reason to fear a guy who didn't pay any attention to him, until after GZ targetted him.

Your phrasing here disturbs me. It does not appear that Zimmerman strapped on a gun to go hunt down a little black kid. He already had the gun on his person, and simply left the truck with it. The way you paint the picture makes it sound like he was just out looking for trouble and had the gun in his glove compartment or something and stuck it in his waistband to go confront Martin. None of the evidence points to this.

On HLN last night they established from evidence that TM was actually standing on his father's/ father's girlfriend's property when GZ confronted him. Most likely he stopped under the tree to ascertain why he was being watched by a stranger. For all TM knew, GZ was the one who didn't belong in the neighborhood. TM may have thought GZ was a drug dealer or skinhead who might possibly cause troubles for his family as GZ was hanging about their home.

I did not see HLN last night, but I would wonder why, how if he was on that property, he wound up ~700 feet to the north (and that can't be disputed).

The tree on his family's property provided a slight respite from the rain...but TM was wearing a hoodie and that gave him protection against the wet as well, to some degree...Then too there are those of us who love the rain and like to be out in it. Yet I think he was concerned about his family when GZ focused on him on their property.

BTW, I think GZ phoned 911 again ( it was a longstanding habit of his ) to be sure he got the credit for capturing or taking down the " bad guy."

When in the past has he wanted to make sure he gets credit for capturing individuals? Since you say it's a longstanding habit of his...

MOO

 

[corundogs]

Has anyone here ever fallen on concrete?

Just having a skin exposed body part hit it ONE TIME?

There is abrasion. A large one, depending on how big the area is that strikes the concrete. If it's an area where bone hits (no fat pad) the abrasion will most likely be greater because it's hard surface on hard surface.

I have hit many things on concrete - ankles, hands, elbows, knees, butt. LOL!! I have seen others who have done the same.

I have never seen the type of injury I see on GZ's head. And DEFINITELY not the way I would look after being hit repeatedly, as GZ stated in his own words.

And if the injury didn't happen the way GZ stated, then there is a reason he is saying it happened differently.

That should be an issue for everyone.

 

[Words2Serve]

BBM.

It does not need to be proven that it was self defense. The state has to prove that it was not self defense. The defendant is presumed innocent. The burden of proof is on the state.

MY UNDERSTANDING ONLY... In order for their to be an acquittal the jury needs to BELIEVE he acted in self-defense which is the 'goal' of the defense. If they can not get the jury to see self-defense, even if the state can not prove murder, the best they could hope for is manslaughter. So the defense does have a burden to make it clear that his actions were made in self-defense.

It is not 'assumed' that if it was not murder than it must have been self-defense. There is an in-between because GZ did pull the trigger, so there is no reasonable doubt about who caused the death. The reasonable doubt is the WHY

 

[missmazzy]

That's correct

Rachel also refused interviews with LE.

Too bad JM won't be cross examining her.

 

[iluvmua]

This is what I don't think people take into account. HE Called the police. He knows they are coming. They could be there already.. So why would he start something.

He wouldn't. It makes no sense.

exactly!

So I guess the prosecution thinks he broke his own nose and hit his head on the pavement himself ALL without anyone seeing or hearing him doing this?

Total BS........ they have no case and they know it.

The police were on their way and they could have been there at any minute.

Angela Corey needs to be disbarred and so does Ben Crump for this farce of a trial. The prosecutors need to as well.

 

[gxm]

Has anyone here ever fallen on concrete?

Just having a skin exposed body part hit it ONE TIME?

There is abrasion. A large one, depending on how big the area is that strikes the concrete. If it's an area where bone hits (no fat pad) the abrasion will most likely be greater because it's hard surface on hard surface.

I have hit many things on concrete - ankles, hands, elbows, knees, butt. LOL!! I have seen others who have done the same.

I have never seen the type of injury I see on GZ's head. And DEFINITELY not the way I would look after being hit repeatedly, as GZ stated in his own words.

And if the injury didn't happen the way GZ stated, then there is a reason he is saying it happened differently.

That should be an issue for everyone.

Actually, it's because I was beaten in a similar manner that I find GZ's story believable. It rings true to me. Especially the fear that you will suffer permanent damage.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I wonder what this officer is here for? Was he at the scene?

 

[iluvmua]

Too bad JM won't be cross examining her.

I know, That would be something.

 

[SilkySifaka]

police officer on, should be interesting

 

[m00c0w]

MY UNDERSTANDING ONLY... In order for their to be an acquittal the jury needs to BELIEVE he acted in self-defense which is the 'goal' of the defense. If they can not get the jury to see self-defense, even if the state can not prove murder, the best they could hope for is manslaughter. So the defense does have a burden to make it clear that his actions were made in self-defense.

It is not 'assumed' that if it was not murder than it must have been self-defense. There is an in-between because GZ did pull the trigger, so there is no reasonable doubt about who caused the death. The reasonable doubt is the WHY

This is not entirely true, but I think you have the jist of it.

The florida law for 2nd degree murder requires evidence of "depraved mind", which the prosecutor would also have to prove.

I am not sure if there are provisions in Florida law/jury instructions for them to convict him of manslaughter rather than the charges filed against him.

MOO