Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Patrick Jane]

A journalist (Lambropoulos?) brought up one of the first questions we raised here in the thread in the early days after the murder made the news. It involves the tape on Babis, which did not apparently leave the redness etc... that comes after the covered skin is freed from the tape. Since I don't speak a word of Greek, I'm getting this from the poorly translated comments section, so I'm not sure, but I'm guessing L is saying in essence that the tape appeared to have been put on shortly before the police arrived, rather than a few hours before, when this tragedy started?

Question about baby L: If her mum, Caroline, was killed at aprox 4:30, and her father, Babis, was unable to get to her or comfort her because he was tied up etc... until roughly 6:20, wouldn't the distraught almost-toddler have cried/screamed herself to sleep within 20 to 30 minutes of her mother's death? If only she spoke more than baby gibberish.

Here is the Lambropoulos interview you're referring to:

Good question. Police and crime reporters are asking the same question. I was just about to post this and I saw your question, so I'm including it in this post.

same crime reporter from yesterday and the day before yesterday, reiterates that no DNA of the alleged perps was found, and asks some more questions

including why weren't there marks and skin trauma/damage on the husband if his mouth was covered with packaging tape for an hour or more (1.5 hrs)? and suggests there are problems in the duration and timeline of events. He posits, in the husband's defense, that maybe the husband doesn't remember things (in regard to the timeline) correctly and the period he was covered and bound was much shorter.

 

[Lola68]

Good I was a bit worried when I read the post about closing the investigation. For me they are just starting haha

Sorry - agree! I interpreted it as close to being able to bring charges

 

[Lola68]

[deleted by me]

 

[Lola68]

This is total speculation, but I wonder if CC was struggling with PND, she might have been on medication and/or having difficulty sleeping so took something to help her sleep. So would be easier to overpower her/suffocate her if she was drowsy. Or something could have made her similarly incapacitated

 

[Dotta]

Sorry - agree! I interpreted it as close to being able to bring charges

Nothing to be sorry about Greek language is a foreign one for us and we struggle with google translator (bless it nevertheless). Its good that charges are coming! After charges it is still hard work for police to complete the evidence and tie all things to present a clear and convincing picture. Im glad that so many people all over the world want the monster/s pay!!!

 

[Silverlinging89]

**to clarify re tape. I am not saying tape does not leave marks because of course it does, but in the case of sweating, such as in fear for your life, tape really does not stick to skin. I know this from first hand daily experience, and it's why medics stitch important devices like drips in, when people are unwell or clammy - nothing sticks properly. It is completely feasible not not be marked from tape if it never stuck in the first place. Tape being waterproof on the outside does not mean it sticks through a layer of saltwater. The way tape seals boats and kayaks (we use) is the tape adheres to the plastic and expels air. The water is not coming from the surface the adherent of the tape is stuck to in waterproof sealing. In skin, the skin itself is producing saltwater between the skin cells and the tape - therefore when tape is removed it is no longer attached to cells to rip them off. If it doesn't disclose epidermis, you will not get histamine release, which is the inflammatory mediator that makes skin erythematous.

I know it is difficult to believe, but I pull tape off people probably 10-20x a day and it does not always leave a mark and sometimes falls off by itself - including durable surgical dressings.

****that is not to say I can comment at all on the likelihood of it as pertains to the case, but I take issue with any arguments based on the impossibility of tape leaving a mark, because that is evidentially not true, and I have first hand experience, sweat comes up through the skin and forces it's way underneath the tape, making it no longer stuck to the upper layer of the dermis****

I promise sticky things just do not stick to sweaty skin, and as I said, it's such an issue, we sew our important things into skin with needle and thread, for this exact reason.

I will stop talking about tape now

hope we hear soon, and the evidence is strong enough to put these demons away forever.

 

[Silverlinging89]

Ps thank you to ace translations!

 

[Dotta]

It's so interesting what you write about tapes and sewing stuff into the skin. I never knew!

 

[Patrick Jane]

"Police are close to closing the investigation"
Εγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: «Είμαστε κοντά σε εξιχνίαση» – Ερωτήματα και αντιφατικά στοιχεία | ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

There's a video embedded in that article which has more information.

 

[Patrick Jane]

The same policeman who I have posted some of his media interviews before in this thread is the one in this video and also the one mentioned in the article. His name is George Kalliakmanis. I'll refer to him as K to make it easier. According to the article, K is the president/chairman of the police officers.

 

[Dotta]

Do you mean Police Union?

 

[Patrick Jane]

Translation by google

"At the same time, he pointed out that it is contradictory that the perpetrators tied the 32-year-old with a string that they found inside the house, while they closed his mouth with insulating tape that they also found in the area, while the woman was tied with a dress."

Εγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: «Είμαστε κοντά σε εξιχνίαση» – Ερωτήματα και αντιφατικά στοιχεία | ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

Confirmation that all materials used in the crime came from the house.

K confirms this today in the video embedded in today's Ta Nea article.

He describes the things which the alleged perpetrators used and then says at 2:40 that they used "whatever they found inside the house."

 

[Patrick Jane]

Do you mean Police Union?

I believe the other LE who was speaking to media on this case was the head of the union, but I'd have to see it again to be sure.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Ok, I found K's full title:

Πρόεδρος του Συλλόγου Αστυνομικών Υπαλλήλων Νοτιοανατολικής Αττικής
President of the Association of Police Officers (in the region of) Southeast Attica

I'd link the source but the Greek characters in the URL aren't able to be posted (to serve as a usable link) for some reason

 

[Dotta]

So it seems that all important police officials are keen to solve this crime. A kind of matter of pride and honour for them. Good!

 

[Patrick Jane]

The other LE who was speaking to media (earlier in the thread) was Stavros Balaskas, who's listed as a senior level union official of the Greek Police.

 

[Dotta]

I think this announcement of imminent charges is the effect of therapist revelations (known only to LE). I mean investigating mafias: Georgian, Albanian, Greek etc could take months if not years.

 

[Patrick Jane]

In the video K starts off by stating that police are close to solving the case. He then describes hypotheses about the crime which one could make if one were relying on the witness testimony of the husband. And he then states that there are numerous unanswered questions which flow from these hypotheses (which rely on the husband's statements). Such as, if the alleged perpetrators went to the house armed, then this wasn't a simple burglary, but the intention (at a minimum) was a (serious) robbery. Yet if this was a robbery, why did the alleged perpetrators come unprepared? Why did they use only materials that they found in the home? He emphasizes that the husband was tied up with string*. Why did the alleged perpetrators remove memory cards from cameras but leave the mobile phone next to the husband?

A lawyer is on the program with K and she states that it appears that the (alleged) perpetrators have committed the perfect crime as they have seemingly vanished without a trace (of evidence), but, as we all know, there is no perfect crime.

*σπάγγος: string, twine, packing thread (to tie up parcels)
**edit to add: listening again, K further clarifies the string by describing it as "thin, like . . . kite string"
note: K's use of this word confirms the early reporting which used the same word

 

[Patrick Jane]

And we have clarity on the type of tape used: in the video, K says it was μονωτική ταινία, which I'd translate as "electrical tape."

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

Any unusual odours reported by the husband? Don’t these kind of more prolonged crimes have a whiff of something or other that can jog a memory or help link crimes?