Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Patrick Jane]

Are you saying electrical tape and string are suitable? Maybe the thieves simply forgot their thick black pillowcases and zip ties back in their vehicle?

...Was the dog crying or barking? Did the killer know Caroline and as such, killed Bruno out of spite? Do we know for a fact that the baby was on the bed for the entire time? Even LE found it odd if she was. How could Caroline be asleep when murdered, since Babis said that they were both pleading for their baby's life?

re: the dog, the word used was cries* not barking

*κλάμα: cry, weeping, tears (when in reference to a human)

 

[Patrick Jane]

I really don't know how to reconcile "initially moved to resist her attackers" with "no struggle appeared to have ensued"?

Maybe media merging statements from the husband and statements from LE into one narrative? MOO

 

[everybodhi]

Maybe media merging statements from the husband and statements from LE into one narrative? MOO

Your earlier suggestion to separate the evidence presented by LE from the evidence presented by BA really helped me with my confusion over media reports on this case.
Thank you for that.

 

[Dotta]

re: the dog, the word used was cries* not barking

*κλάμα: cry, weeping, tears (when in reference to a human)

Whine, whimper, yelp????

 

[Winterbells]

CC’s time of death, 4:20am-4:30am, came from K, the police officer in the interview.
Translated by Patrick Jane:
“K says the timeline is very important. the time of death is important.”
Bringing this forward from previous page.

Ok, but K said that the time of death they were working with was only based on information that he's received. I'm not sure what this means.

 

[everybodhi]

Ok, but K said that the time of death they were working with was only based on information that he's received. I'm not sure what this means.

Where would the ASPO, the Assistant Chief Constable, normally receive time of death in a murder investigation?
I think the medical examiner’s autopsy report.
It can’t be from the husband, he said he didn’t even know she was dead until after the police arrived at 6:20am and removed his blindfold.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Ok, but K said that the time of death they were working with was only based on information that he's received. I'm not sure what this means.

He's not telling us exactly where he got it from. Was it from the autopsy report as everybodhi suggests? Was it from another LE? Was it a reliable source or not? We don't know. The main thing is he doesn't want this information to be used in court, so he's just having a friendly conversation with media (which he cautions media repeatedly much of the conversation is hypothetical), but he doesn't want media to think he's literally reading from the autopsy report as if he's in court. Why would he do this? Maybe he's bluffing. Maybe he wants the murderer to think that there are problems in the timeline. Maybe he's being truthful. Either way, he's leaving his source vague on purpose.

JMO

 

[Winterbells]

Where would the ASPO, the Assistant Chief Constable, normally receive time of death in a murder investigation?
I think the medical examiner’s autopsy report.

Why doesn't he just say so, then @everybodhi ?

 

[everybodhi]

Why doesn't he just say so, then @everybodhi ?

He said the time of death was 4:20-4:30, since when have authorities ever played all their cards during an ongoing murder investigation before any arrests, to the press?
Maybe he’s lying about her time of death but I don’t know why he would lie and I tend to believe him and take him at his word regarding the little hints of evidence he’s doling out.

 

[Winterbells]

He said the time of death was 4:20-4:30, since when have authorities ever played all their cards during an ongoing murder investigation before any arrests, to the press?
Maybe he’s lying about her time of death but I don’t know why he would lie and I tend to believe him and take him at his word regarding the little hints of evidence he’s doling out.

He's not lying. That would be stupid. But he's being very coy about this particular detail.
I can think of several reasons why the police wouldn't want to reveal CC's time of death at this stage of the investigation.

 

[everybodhi]

He's not lying. That would be stupid. But he's being very coy about this particular detail.
I can think of several reasons why the police wouldn't want to reveal CC's time of death at this stage of the investigation.

He clearly revealed the time of death, that is enough.
And as he said, “the timeline is very important. the time of death is important.”

 

[Lola68]

He clearly revealed the time of death, that is enough.
And as he said, “the timeline is very important. the time of death is important.”

It's important because it contradicts B's statements.

Either the information, or B's statement, is incorrect.

 

[everybodhi]

It's important because it contradicts B's statements.

Either the information, or B's statement, is incorrect.

Who can you believe, the Constable or the husband?

 

[Winterbells]

He clearly revealed the time of death, that is enough.
And as he said, “the timeline is very important. the time of death is important.”

'enough' for what?
He wasn't willing to link the info he's received about the time of death to the alleged timing of the alleged break in.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Your earlier suggestion to separate the evidence presented by LE from the evidence presented by BA really helped me with my confusion over media reports on this case.
Thank you for that.

You're welcome. And I want to thank you for this suggestion, as it led me back to the "Light in the Tunnel" interview.

The neighbor who reported hearing the dog bark is possibly a second witness to the timeline. jmo

 

[Polly Graf]

I really don't know how to reconcile "initially moved to resist her attackers" with "no struggle appeared to have ensued"?

I think that could be explained by her jumping off the bed to confront them, then stopping dead in her tracks when a gun was pointed at her? Not really saying I believe that’s what happened though, just a possibility. There are other things bothering me much more, it’s getting rather hard to say anything.

Can they really determine a TOD that accurately? Maybe they can if they arrive at the scene soon enough….

In those previous robberies in Athens, do we know if the perps came prepared with ties on those occasions? Or did they use things they found in the house too?

Have we heard any confirmation about the shoes he had on in the reconstruction? That made me wonder if he’d got up to let the dog out.

Do we know if that dog was more Caroline’s pet than B’s?

 

[everybodhi]

'enough' for what?
He wasn't willing to link the info he's received about the time of death to the alleged timing of the alleged break in.

Enough to let us know this murder has rather large inconsistencies from the story we were told, and they are being investigated.
Do you think he should try this before the press at this stage? Lay all his evidence out in a TV interview?
I don’t really understand your questions of me. I’ve only stated what the investigator presented on the record as evidence, I have no agenda in this murder outside of a curiosity of what really happened to Caroline.

 

[Dotta]

Who can you believe, the Constable or the husband?

No comment

 

[Dotta]

It's no good when police say too much in the media - I'm really against it. K is an official and not in the investigating team I guess. Police officers shouldn't be treated like media stars. Better stay in shadows and investigate diligently.

 

[Winterbells]

Enough to let us know this murder has rather large inconsistencies from the story we were told, and they are being investigated.
Do you think he should try this before the press at this stage? Lay all his evidence out in a TV interview?
I don’t really understand your questions of me. I’ve only stated what the investigator presented on the record as evidence, I have no agenda in this murder outside of a curiosity of what really happened to Caroline.

@everybodhi I think you'll find you asked me a question about my post in which I said we don't know where the time of death came from. You said it came from the police officer K, then asked me where I think it came from.
I know it came from police officer K, but I am noting that K, for some reason, doesn't want to reveal the source of that information
No intelligent, logical, rational thinking person would wish for the case to be tried before the press, nor expect the police to reveal all the evidence they have collected. But as someone who is also curious to know what really happened to CC, and indeed when it really happened, I find what absolute facts the police aren't willing to reveal, just as noteworthy as those that they are.