Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[HollyHunter9]

It would be interesting to find out what type of phone (mobile or land line) was used to call his neighbour for help. I'm sure I read one of the translated reports that he used re-dial to phone the last number called not the police? This is fairly plausible until you think if it were a mobile phone, most phones these days have some kind of 'lock' system on them. Mine uses my fingerprint to open up my main menu, now how would you input your fingerprint with your nose? Or enter a code with your eyes shut and your hands tied up? Perhaps it is just bad reporting and translating from the media so I'm not victim bashing. Just genuinely curious as to how he called for help as some of the current details still don't quite add up.

 

[Mistyjks]

I have not read every post, but wanted to respond on the comments regarding making the call hands/eyes not available. If he is using an iPhone you can have a Siri activated. As long as my phone is within distance to “hear” me, I just say “hey Siri” to activate it. From there it’s like an assistant to pretty much do whatever I want. “Can you call 911” “can you send a text to John smith” “can you read my last text received”. I use it when I’m driving if I need to message someone or get a text response. I never knew about this feature till a couple years ago when I read about a tragic incident where a high school boy was driving a minivan and went to his school for a tennis match. He went to the back of the van and went to reach over the seats for his racket and ended up getting wedged between the car wall and the end of the row seat. He couldn’t get out and uses this feature to call for help. Horrible story with mistakes made by 911 op (thought it was a joke), and cops went to wrong school, etc - he ended up passing away. Heartbreaking.

so anyways, hands/eyes free call can be made as such.

 

[Mistyjks]

I have not read every post, but wanted to respond on the comments regarding making the call hands/eyes not available. If he is using an iPhone you can have Siri activated. As long as my phone is within distance to “hear” me, I just say “hey Siri” to activate it. From there it’s like an assistant to pretty much do whatever I want. “Can you call 911” “can you send a text to John smith” “can you read my last text received”. I use it when I’m driving if I need to message someone or get a text response. I never knew about this feature till a couple years ago when I read about a tragic incident where a high school boy was driving a minivan and went to his school for a tennis match. He went to the back of the van and went to reach over the seats for his racket and ended up getting wedged between the car wall and the end of the row seat. He couldn’t get out and uses this feature to call for help. Horrible story with mistakes made by 911 op (thought it was a joke), and cops went to wrong school, etc - he ended up passing away. Heartbreaking.

so anyways, hands/eyes free call can be made as such.

 

[caylee17799]

Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Σπείρα Αλβανών και Ελλήνων πίσω από τη φρικτή δολοφονία της Καρολάιν

"A gang consisting of Albanian and Greek citizens seems to be behind Caroline's murder. Homicide profilers concluded that said gang consists of a large number of people that carry out robberies, using a different combination of members each time, in order to fool the authorities."
"Their MO is use of excessive violence, beatings, and tying their victims with ropes. Their escape route is specific and constists of primarily narrow streets, staying away from highways and big avenues, in order to avoid police blocks and getting caught by traffic cameras. Within the next few hours, it's expected that the crime lab will release information about the primarily results of their investigation, which will greatly facilitate the work of the police and help them rule out suspects from their list of about 100 persons of interest."
"Everything points to the couple's house being chosen at random, and getting surveilled, along with the owners' routine and habits, for days, before the horrific crime was committed."
"In fact, since the robbers killed the 20-year old mother, crime analysts speculate that they wouldn't spare the husband's life. However, judging by the way they had tied up, "like a sausage" , both his feet and hands, had gagged him, and taped shut his eyes and mouth, to the point of him losing consciousness from hypoxia every now and then, the perpetrators believed he was also dead, and left him behind, passed out and tied up."

 

[caylee17799]

Sorry in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors, it took me forever to translate this and I just didn't check very thoroughly before posting it

 

[sandy_80]

almost every crime possible survivor that doesn't show the right kind of emotions is called into question...

 

[SandyQLS]

Sorry in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors, it took me forever to translate this and I just didn't check very thoroughly before posting it

You did a wonderful job translating, and thank you. That article is the first that I have read that provides details that tend to exonerate the husband. imo

 

[beatrixpotter]

I wonder why he was left relatively unscathed? He would know the location of valuables as well as she did. It seems odd to me that they would torture and kill her (and even the dog) but “only” tie him to a chair.
Disclaimer: have only read the posts so far, not the linked articles

Just read the news article and these are the same thoughts I'm having. It's very odd they separated her and the baby from the husband and focused on torturing her specifically. Something about this does not add up to me.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

..that's in the psychopath style and he looks like he is normal

SBM: psychopaths come in all shapes and sizes and colors and many are well groomed, hold jobs, have families, go shopping, drive cars, etc. Be careful assuming that the way someone looks dictates their ability to commit a crime. IMO.

 

[Polly Graf]

If I remember correctly some older landline phones had buttons for redial, recall etc down the side, if it’s one of those he’s only got to knock the receiver off and push the top left button!?

Do we know what kind of dog it was? I can understand intruders getting rid of a large or noisy dog quickly, but otherwise it’s just an act of spite which seems more personal than a robbery to me!

I don’t actually think the husband had anything to do with planning this but I’m not convinced he’s telling the whole truth either!
I might be miles off but I’m still stuck on him being a helicopter pilot! If the baby is 8 months old it would have been conceived right around the start of COVID! I’m just thinking he could have been mixed up in something dodgy before that and now that everything is starting to reopen again his former “acquaintances” wanted him to continue and he maybe refused, different priorities now with the baby!? That might also explain them expecting a good amount of cash in the house if they’ve paid him a lot in the past!

It all feels like it was meant to terrorise the husband as much as possible while still leaving him unharmed, I think keeping Caroline in another room for so long and blocking her mouth may have all been to make the husband more frantic about what’s happening in there. I seriously hope she wasn’t sexually assaulted but if I’d been in the husbands position and a couple of these guys had stayed in another bedroom with her for 40 odd minutes, that’s exactly what I’d be thinking!

MOO

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

if it was random, and the assailants surveilled the family prior, I have to wonder how did they know there was money in the house just from surveillance unless they were inside the home when the money was discussed or hidden? What if there was no hidden money in the home, what then? They had to know. IMO.

 

[Herat]

Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Σπείρα Αλβανών και Ελλήνων πίσω από τη φρικτή δολοφονία της Καρολάιν

"A gang consisting of Albanian and Greek citizens seems to be behind Caroline's murder. Homicide profilers concluded that said gang consists of a large number of people that carry out robberies, using a different combination of members each time, in order to fool the authorities."
"Their MO is use of excessive violence, beatings, and tying their victims with ropes. Their escape route is specific and constists of primarily narrow streets, staying away from highways and big avenues, in order to avoid police blocks and getting caught by traffic cameras. Within the next few hours, it's expected that the crime lab will release information about the primarily results of their investigation, which will greatly facilitate the work of the police and help them rule out suspects from their list of about 100 persons of interest."
"Everything points to the couple's house being chosen at random, and getting surveilled, along with the owners' routine and habits, for days, before the horrific crime was committed."
"In fact, since the robbers killed the 20-year old mother, crime analysts speculate that they wouldn't spare the husband's life. However, judging by the way they had tied up, "like a sausage" , both his feet and hands, had gagged him, and taped shut his eyes and mouth, to the point of him losing consciousness from hypoxia every now and then, the perpetrators believed he was also dead, and left him behind, passed out and tied up."

Terrible, terrible people. How do you keep yourself and your family safe with savage consciousless beasts like this around, watching you for days, as they chose their next victim.

 

[Mrs Marple]

almost every crime possible survivor that doesn't show the right kind of emotions is called into question...

It made me think of the McCanns. Everyone was convinced they did it because they kept running and weren't distraught enough and look where that investigation is now. They've been put through hell in the media, no one should be put through that without being found guilty in a court of law.

 

[EvaGreen]

I wonder why he was left relatively unscathed? He would know the location of valuables as well as she did. It seems odd to me that they would torture and kill her (and even the dog) but “only” tie him to a chair.
Disclaimer: have only read the posts so far, not the linked articles

Hmmmmmm

 

[Patrick Jane]

if it was random, and the assailants surveilled the family prior, I have to wonder how did they know there was money in the house just from surveillance unless they were inside the home when the money was discussed or hidden? What if there was no hidden money in the home, what then? They had to know. IMO.

I agree with your analysis. Either it was random, and somehow the surveillance uncovered some intel about the money or it wasn't random and the intel led them to conduct the surveillance.

That excerpt from the media report in Thema posted earlier suggesting that:

Όλα δείχνουν οτι η συμμορία επέλεξε τυχαία το σπίτι

Everything points to the couple's house being chosen at random

(caylee17799's translation)

is contradicted by other media reports. Such as this one:

Γλυκά Νερά: Εκτεταμένες οι έρευνες τον Αρχών – Τα στοιχεία που θα φωτίσουν την υπόθεση | MEGA TV

Το βέβαιο είναι ότι δεν «χτύπησαν» τυχαία.

It's certain that they (the perps) didn't do this "hit" by chance/randomly.

Γνώριζαν επίσης, ότι στο σπίτι υπήρχαν μετρητά και κοσμήματα και έτσι επέλεξαν μέρα όπου το ζευγάρι βρισκόταν στην σπίτι του, προκειμένου να ομολογήσουν πού κρύβεται ο… θησαυρός.

They also knew that in the house there was cash and jewelry and that's why they chose a day (to "hit" the house) when (they knew that) the couple would be at their home, in order to (get them) to confess where they had hidden the . . . treasure.

(my translation only)

 

[caylee17799]

I guess that by "at random" the author of the article means that there was no personal connection between the victims and the perpetrators maybe? It kinda confused me as well. Or maybe that there was not a 3rd party involved (a worker, gardener, housekeeper, anyone that could have tipped the robbers about them having cash inside the house etc) as many were suggesting, and instead the robbers "stumbled upon them" and chose them as easy targets (it's reported that the house didn't have an alarm system installed), for example?

 

[Kaykedi]

Sorry in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors, it took me forever to translate this and I just didn't check very thoroughly before posting it

Thank you so much for translating this, you've done a fantastic job

 

[Kitkat28]

Everyone who is saying they can redial their last number with their nose, or use Siri, or press a button on the landline phone - how do you explain even being able to access your phone if you are in this predicament:

However, judging by the way they had tied up, "like a sausage" , both his feet and hands, had gagged him, and taped shut his eyes and mouth, to the point of him losing consciousness from hypoxia every now and then

 

[Patrick Jane]

I guess that by "at random" the author of the article means that there was no personal connection between the victims and the perpetrators maybe? It kinda confused me as well. Or maybe that there was not a 3rd party involved (a worker, gardener, housekeeper, anyone that could have tipped the robbers about them having cash inside the house etc) as many were suggesting, and instead the robbers "stumbled upon them" and chose them as easy targets (it's reported that the house didn't have an alarm system installed), for example?

That's a good point you bring up about maybe the perps viewed them as easy targets. I've watched some videos of the crime scene and I'd call this maisonette tactically advantageous from a burglar's perspective because they were able to access the property unseen from an empty lot, and there was no fence preventing access to the property from the empty lot.

If this is why they were selected for surveillance we still have the question of how did they uncover intel on the money during their surveillance. As you point out, some are speculating that perhaps the perps communicated with a 3rd party, like a worker, gardener, housekeeper who tipped them off to the money. But how likely would this type of information be uncovered in just a few days of surveillance? Even if we do a thought experiment and say that the perps were Albanian and one of the workers was Albanian, you can't just go up to a stranger (even if you're from the same country) and find out in a few days that there is "treasure" stored in the house. That seems improbable. It would be highly risky. Unless during the course of the surveillance it was discovered that there was some lucky connection between the worker and one of the perps, and they were not actually strangers, but knew each other. This is possible, but seems unlikely.

Which is why I'm wondering whether it might be more probable that they had the intel first, from a friend or someone that they trusted, and then they decided to do the surveillance.

JMO

 

[Satchie]

That's a good point you bring up about maybe the perps viewed them as easy targets. I've watched some videos of the crime scene and I'd call this maisonette tactically advantageous from a burglar's perspective because they were able to access the property unseen from an empty lot, and there was no fence preventing access to the property from the empty lot.

If this is why they were selected for surveillance we still have the question of how did they uncover intel on the money during their surveillance. As you point out, some are speculating that perhaps the perps communicated with a 3rd party, like a worker, gardener, housekeeper who tipped them off to the money. But how likely would this type of information be uncovered in just a few days of surveillance? Even if we do a thought experiment and say that the perps were Albanian and one of the workers was Albanian, you can't just go up to a stranger (even if you're from the same country) and find out in a few days that there is "treasure" stored in the house. That seems improbable. It would be highly risky. Unless during the course of the surveillance it was discovered that there was some lucky connection between the worker and one of the perps, and they were not actually strangers, but knew each other. This is possible, but seems unlikely.

Which is why I'm wondering whether it might be more probable that they had the intel first, from a friend or someone that they trusted, and then they decided to do the surveillance.

JMO

I agree, for eg, what if one of them was noticed getting a lot of cash at a bank, and they were followed home. Maybe by a gang member, or by someone who would get money for passing on a tip.

But as well, it was only a few years ago that the government lifted the severe limits on cash withdrawls, and many people may still not trust that they can quickly get cash when they need it, so perhaps the gang often lucks out when they demand cash. Possibly, their good fortune in stumbling on this unexpectedly large stash, just convinced them there must be more. People get all sorts of crazy ideas.