Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Ellmau]

if it was random, and the assailants surveilled the family prior, I have to wonder how did they know there was money in the house just from surveillance unless they were inside the home when the money was discussed or hidden? What if there was no hidden money in the home, what then? They had to know. IMO.

I believe a lot of Greeks keep cash in the house. Tax evasion, cash economy, distrust of banks.

The daughter of friends of my parents lives in Greece with her Greek partner, in a tourist area, and they have guard dogs and a gun in the house because they're concerned about security (and have large amounts of cash stashed from their business).

 

[Frannie]

Article from Daily Mail with a short English video of her mother and of her husband but in Greek with English subtitles.

Did killers of British mother know she had £10k in house? | Daily Mail Online

 

[Mistyjks]

Everyone who is saying they can redial their last number with their nose, or use Siri, or press a button on the landline phone - how do you explain even being able to access your phone if you are in this predicament:

In the case of what I mentioned, the “hey Siri” feature you’d have to be able to speak only. So if he was able to do that and the phone was in distance to “hear” someone saying that it would be all that is needed. If his mouth was gagged or otherwise prevented this, coupled with all the other reported tape/tied, etc up I couldn’t understand how one would be able to make a call. Moo

 

[asmi106082]

Are land sales public record like in the U.S.? If so, it’s possible that the thieves monitored public records and saw that this family had recently purchased land, and assumed they would have significant cash on hand?
I feel like this would be a real stretch but I’m born and raised in the U.S. so I’m not familiar with keeping cash on hand for such large expenditures.
All MOO

 

[Mrs Marple]

Could have face recognition enabled. If it was on a table he would just to wake it up and lean over it. As he dialled a neighbour it was most likely last number dialled.

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

Would face recognition work when there is tape covering eyes and mouth?

 

[dotr]

Would face recognition work when there is tape covering eyes and mouth?

If Face ID isn't working on your iPhone or iPad Pro
''Make sure that nothing is covering your face
Make sure that your eyes, nose, and mouth are fully visible to the TrueDepth camera. Face ID doesn't work if anything is covering your mouth and nose, like a face mask. If you're wearing a face mask, you'll be asked to enter your passcode automatically after swiping up.''

 

[caylee17799]

If this is why they were selected for surveillance we still have the question of how did they uncover intel on the money during their surveillance. As you point out, some are speculating that perhaps the perps communicated with a 3rd party, like a worker, gardener, housekeeper who tipped them off to the money. But how likely would this type of information be uncovered in just a few days of surveillance? Even if we do a thought experiment and say that the perps were Albanian and one of the workers was Albanian, you can't just go up to a stranger (even if you're from the same country) and find out in a few days that there is "treasure" stored in the house. That seems improbable. It would be highly risky. Unless during the course of the surveillance it was discovered that there was some lucky connection between the worker and one of the perps, and they were not actually strangers, but knew each other. This is possible, but seems unlikely.

Which is why I'm wondering whether it might be more probable that they had the intel first, from a friend or someone that they trusted, and then they decided to do the surveillance.

JMO

I can't speak about other countries, but here in Greece these types of crimes are not uncommon. In our own flat, a few years ago, a streak of burglaries took place, involving multiple apartments. The perps would break into the apartment, always when the owners were absent, and had a very good knowledge of the outline of the building, as well as the surrounding area. As it turned out, they were tipped off by the housekeeper that worked in one of the apartments, who would inform them about the owners' movements and when it would be best to break in without getting noticed. It's quite usual for gangs to send in members (that don't take part in the burglary itself) under the guise of a specific type of worker (gardener, cleaner, even babysitter) to get specifics about the family's valuables, security systems, routines, etc. Not saying that this is essentially what happened here, of course. But it is possible that the following happened: the couple hired someone, a cleaner for example (big house+ new baby, so it's likely the wife needed help with the house chores), cleaner was involved with some gang of criminals, noticed that there were valuables stored at the house, informed the others, the house was subsequently surveilled, and the rest is history. We'll have to wait a few days to see if this is a likely scenario, as I'm sure the police will be looking into possible involvement of workers the couple had hired, if there were any.

 

[caylee17799]

Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Πολυπληθής σπείρα που χρησιμοποιεί υπερβολική βία πίσω από τη δολοφονία της Καρολάιν

"The violent and hasty way the perpetrators placed the duct tape on the 32-year old's face, allowing him to have some vision from one eye, was what saved his life. And that's because he had sense of what was happening around him, and when the robbers left, he managed to get aware of his surroundings and reach the nightstand, get his cellphone, and call the police. Otherwise, the way they had placed the duct tape around his neck-they wrapped his entire head, from the neck to the eyes, leaving only his nose uncovered- causing him asphyxia and at moments loss of consciousness, would definitely kill him, if he hadn't managed to untie himself on time"

 

[caylee17799]

Once more, something doesn't sit right...the perps took the time to wrap his entire face, but didn't notice he could still see a bit? Also, I can't help but wonder, if he was tied up so badly-both by ropes and the duct tape, wouldn't there be some kind of mark visible on his face, at least on the first day? I hate to be speculating on that, but the guy, on the video from that day, does not look-physically- like someone who, a few hours earlier, was all gagged and tied up, fighting to get free from ropes and duct tapes etc.

 

[Marg from Oz]

How did he get the duct tape off without pulling some of that beard out? MOO

 

[Tortoise]

Just noting Mothers Day in Greece was 9th May.

Are there any photos of Caroline on her social media, of her first Mothers Day? I've seen a short beach video of her with baby but not sure of the date of that.

 

[everybodhi]

Article from Daily Mail with a short English video of her mother and of her husband but in Greek with English subtitles.

Did killers of British mother know she had £10k in house? | Daily Mail Online

I don’t think that is her mother in the second video, it leads right into it after the interview with the husband so it’s confusing, but it’s a different mother talking about a different child. Caroline’s mother is Filipina.

 

[tayaway]

Once more, something doesn't sit right...the perps took the time to wrap his entire face, but didn't notice he could still see a bit? Also, I can't help but wonder, if he was tied up so badly-both by ropes and the duct tape, wouldn't there be some kind of mark visible on his face, at least on the first day? I hate to be speculating on that, but the guy, on the video from that day, does not look-physically- like someone who, a few hours earlier, was all gagged and tied up, fighting to get free from ropes and duct tapes etc.

Ya, you'd think, since people use duct tape to remove everything from body hair to warts, that he'd at least be showing some signs of skin irritation, like redness or rash. ETA According to news outlets like The Mirror, the police are the ones who removed the duct tape:

"The husband of a Brit murdered in Greece says he didn't know she was dead until the police removed duct tape that was covering his eyes."

 

[Tortoise]

In this video he is asked by a reporter when he realised his wife was dead and he says it was "when police untied me, when the police came into the room and took the material covering my face off me" gesturing at the same time with his hand as if to remove something that was covering his mouth.

Greece burglary murder: Woman's daughter was 'trying to wake her up' as police arrived | Daily Mail Online

 

[Tortoise]

DM has the house wrong, it's the one on the left, going by the forensic markings on the door and windows at the back of the house.

Pictured: the house (right) where the murder took place

Forensic marks seen on the door and windows in the rear yard of the house where the burglars are believed to have entered

Greece burglary murder: Woman's daughter was 'trying to wake her up' as police arrived | Daily Mail Online

 

[everybodhi]

So many inconsistencies..

“Mr Anagnostopoulos, speaking outside the house today, said he did not know Caroline was dead until officers arrived and took off tape that was covering his eyes.

“A neighbour who was the first to be alerted to the tragedy after being called by Babis, described what happened as the baby was brought out.
She told MailOnline: 'I came outside and I saw the police were here. Babis was in shock and could not speak”
'Babis was holding the baby. I went inside and got a blanket to wrap up the baby.
The grandmother came and took the baby.”
“‘Babis and the baby are being cared for by the mother.'”

“The neighbour added that Babis had been able to raise the alarm by using his nose to dial his phone and call the most recent dialled number, which was hers.”

“Police were called to the scene by Mr Anagnostopoulos who managed to get to a phone and dial the emergency number with his nose.”
Daughter of Briton murdered in Greece 'was trying to wake her up'

One more..

Her husband, Charalambos 'Babis' Anagnostopoulos, 32, has flown from helping the police in Athens to be at the funeral in Alonisso - where shops and businesses will close as a mark of respect as the funeral takes place.

Babis has spoken at length to detectives since the murder. They hope their inquiries will help to jog his memory for even the slightest details of the horrific attack that will lead them to the perpetrators.

Officers cannot work out why the robbers killed 20-year-old Caroline after husband Babis had directed them to his stash of money and he and his wife had been tied up as they had apparently already obtained what they came for and gained nothing from her death.

Babis was so tightly bound with tape around his neck that he lost consciousness due to lack of oxygen and the gang believed they had also left him for dead. However there was a tiny gap in his tape blindfold that enabled to see through a tiny gap in the tape and this enabled him to find his phone and call the police.

Funeral of murdered British mother is held today on Greek island

edited to shorten this ridiculously long post

 

[tayaway]

Can one of our Greek speaking members give this Ta Nea article, from today, a read, if you've got time? Apparently the couple took much more money out of the bank but the thieves didn't know they'd already given most of it over to the contractors? The husband may have survived because the murderers thought he was already dead?

 

[Orgona]

I have no idea why the reporting is still so inconsistent. It does begin to make more sense except the phone story. After reading now the husband’s whole head was covered in tape that makes even less sense. Maybe that’s just some sensationalist reporting.
Hopefully LE finds the perps really soon that nobody else has to go through something so horrible.

Sometimes there are Albanian gangs robbing houses in my country too, but they are mostly non violent. They are watching the rhythm of the household for a while, then when nobody is home they brake in turning everything upside down. The violent gangs we hear of are in the drug underworld. I’m not in Greece, though.

May this case be solved quickly.
RIP CC

 

[everybodhi]

I have no idea why the reporting is still so inconsistent. It does begin to make more sense except the phone story. After reading now the husband’s whole head was covered in tape that makes even less sense. Maybe that’s just some sensationalist reporting.
Hopefully LE finds the perps really soon that nobody else has to go through something so horrible.

Sometimes there are Albanian gangs robbing houses in my country too, but they are mostly non violent. They are watching the rhythm of the household for a while, then when nobody is home they brake in turning everything upside down. The violent gangs we hear of are in the drug underworld. I’m not in Greece, though.

May this case be solved quickly.
RIP CC

I did post the Daily Mail who are notorious for racing to be the first to get things wrong but even the Greek media, along with everyone else, has given the Mail a run for their money with this case.
I remember when this story broke and he was on an entirely different floor during the entire ordeal and she was in the attic bedroom with the baby, now it turns out he was tied up on the floor, next to her tied up in the bed, with the baby next to her. All together in the attic master bedroom the entire time.
I’ve rarely seen a crime report change so drastically.

How it started:

“When I managed to break free, I rushed upstairs to the attic to find my wife on the floor facing down, and the baby next to her wailing,” he reportedly told cops.