Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Tortoise]

All quoted from the article:


"The British mother murdered in Athens in front of her 11-month-old daughter by robbers was laid to rest today on the idyllic Greek island where she grew up.

Almost every inhabitant of Alonnisos flocked to the island's Agia Paraskevi church to pay their respects to Caroline Crouch, the young Briton who they had adopted as their own.

Caroline's widower Babis and their 11 month old daughter Lydia had flown by helicopter to the island, where shops and businesses closed as a mark of respect as the funeral takes place.

Her heart-broken parents – former British serviceman David Crouch and Filippino Susan Dela Cuesta – were supported by friends and relatives in their moment of grief. "

[...]

"Caroline is believed to have been born in Athens, where her ex-pat parents set up home, while her dad was working for an international oil company following a career in the armed forces.

The family moved to Alonnisos when Caroline was eight years old and attended the local school, where she joined a younger class to help her improve her Greek.

She graduated from Alonnisos High School aged 18 and was known for her love of sports. She was a member the Hammerhead Kick-Boxing Club.

Caroline was also into amateur dramatics and took part in school plays and island entertainment events.

She enrolled in the University of Piraeus on the Greek mainland, to study statistics.

Caroline met her future husband Babis on Alonnisos where his mother worked as a High School teacher.

The helicopter was a frequent visitor to the island to visit his parents.

The couple met during the summer of 2016. They married in July 2019. Their daughter Lydia was born in June 2020."

[...]

"The first test results of samples of DNA taken from the scene – including traces of blood and skin taken from under Caroline's finger nails – are expected later today."

Funeral of murdered Briton held on Greek island where she grew up as relatives support parents | Daily Mail Online

 

[caylee17799]

Can one of our Greek speaking members give this Ta Nea article, from today, a read, if you've got time? Apparently the couple took much more money out of the bank but the thieves didn't know they'd already given most of it over to the contractors? The husband may have survived because the murderers thought he was already dead?

At first it says the usual stuff, about him being untied by the police, realizing his wife was dead etc. Then, it adds that the police are speculating that someone above suspicion, nicknamed "the contractor" who would have known the couple had money, ordered the robbery, and in order to find out who he is, the police are following the route of the couple's money, from the moment they withdrew it from the bank. They came to this conclusion primarily thanks to the fact that the house was targeted, as well as that the robbers spent so much time inside, torturing the couple and asking for more money, not knowing that most of it had been used.
At some point towards the end, the author also states that the police are looking into three other recent robberies, that took place between December 29th and April 15th, in Koropi, Artemida, and Agia Paraskevi. In all three of those cases, the perpetrators broke in through an unsecured window, tied up the owners and used excessive violence to forced them to reveal where the money was.

 

[Patrick Jane]

I can't speak about other countries, but here in Greece these types of crimes are not uncommon. In our own flat, a few years ago, a streak of burglaries took place, involving multiple apartments. The perps would break into the apartment, always when the owners were absent, and had a very good knowledge of the outline of the building, as well as the surrounding area. As it turned out, they were tipped off by the housekeeper that worked in one of the apartments, who would inform them about the owners' movements and when it would be best to break in without getting noticed. It's quite usual for gangs to send in members (that don't take part in the burglary itself) under the guise of a specific type of worker (gardener, cleaner, even babysitter) to get specifics about the family's valuables, security systems, routines, etc. Not saying that this is essentially what happened here, of course. But it is possible that the following happened: the couple hired someone, a cleaner for example (big house+ new baby, so it's likely the wife needed help with the house chores), cleaner was involved with some gang of criminals, noticed that there were valuables stored at the house, informed the others, the house was subsequently surveilled, and the rest is history. We'll have to wait a few days to see if this is a likely scenario, as I'm sure the police will be looking into possible involvement of workers the couple had hired, if there were any.

Under this type of scenario though you'd normally have the perps leave once they had the money and jewelry. The perps would not continue interrogation and possible torture of the victims insisting on finding more money. Also the perps would not commit murder. This is why this case is unusual for Greece.

 

[Satchie]

At first it says the usual stuff, about him being untied by the police, realizing his wife was dead etc. Then, it adds that the police are speculating that someone above suspicion, nicknamed "the contractor" who would have known the couple had money, ordered the robbery, and in order to find out who he is, the police are following the route of the couple's money, from the moment they withdrew it from the bank. They came to this conclusion primarily thanks to the fact that the house was targeted, as well as that the robbers spent so much time inside, torturing the couple and asking for more money, not knowing that most of it had been used.
At some point towards the end, the author also states that the police are looking into three other recent robberies, that took place between December 29th and April 15th, in Koropi, Artemida, and Agia Paraskevi. In all three of those cases, the perpetrators broke in through an unsecured window, tied up the owners and used excessive violence to forced them to reveal where the money was.

Thanks very much for translating.

Hard to know whether there's any fact to this, IMO it could be just speculation.

It does seem like the kind of scenario that could result in so much violence: if the robbers (not burglars!) had been hired to retrieve a lot more money than what they found, they could face serious repercussions if they reported back to the boss without it all. They might be accused of having kept it for themselves, and killed.

 

[caylee17799]

The extended stay can be explained by the fact that they expected to steal more money. The murder cannot (even by the "really violent gang" scenario), since it makes "sense" in only two cases: fear of identification (but they were wearing masks, hoods etc) and having happened by accident during the torture/interrogation.

Under this type of scenario though you'd normally have the perps leave once they had the money and jewelry. The perps would not continue interrogation and possible torture of the victims insisting on finding more money. Also the perps would not commit murder. This is why this case is unusual for Greece.

 

[Satchie]

The extended stay can be explained by the fact that they expected to steal more money. The murder cannot (even by the "really violent gang" scenario), since it makes "sense" in only two cases: fear of identification (but they were wearing masks, hoods etc) and having happened by accident during the torture/interrogation.

I would include torture under the general category of 'extreme violence'.

 

[Polly Graf]

The extended stay can be explained by the fact that they expected to steal more money. The murder cannot (even by the "really violent gang" scenario), since it makes "sense" in only two cases: fear of identification (but they were wearing masks, hoods etc) and having happened by accident during the torture/interrogation.

Agreed! Even hardened criminals don’t want unnecessary murder charges added to their list of crimes!

It all seems so messy for experienced robbers though, DNA, wrapping someone’s head with duct tape, gagging someone with her own clothes and even killing her when they didn’t need to!

I don’t really get them putting cloth in her mouth, weren’t they supposed to be trying to make her talk?
Unless suffocation was the method of torture they were using and it went too far when they didn’t get the answers they wanted!

 

[Tortoise]

"In a moving eulogy, he [Babis] said: 'I was very lucky that I knew Caroline and that she loved me. I was very lucky for all the moments we shared.

'One thing that makes me even more sad than her death is the fact that our daughter will grow up without remembering her beautiful mother who was the joy of my life.

'But through her daughter, Caroline will always be with me and with all of us. Our loved ones are the most important people to us all.'

After wiping away his tears, he added: 'You should always look after your loved ones and enjoy your time together.'

During the funeral helicopter pilot Babis carried baby Lydia over to lay a singer flower on her mother's coffin and carried her in his arms throughout the day.

The congregation could see him holding her during the moment the pair said their final goodbyes to Caroline as her body was laid to rest in the hilltop cemetery."

Funeral of murdered Briton held on Greek island where she grew up as relatives support parents | Daily Mail Online

 

[Patrick Jane]

Can one of our Greek speaking members give this Ta Nea article, from today, a read, if you've got time? Apparently the couple took much more money out of the bank but the thieves didn't know they'd already given most of it over to the contractors? The husband may have survived because the murderers thought he was already dead?

At first it says the usual stuff, about him being untied by the police, realizing his wife was dead etc. Then, it adds that the police are speculating that someone above suspicion, nicknamed "the contractor" who would have known the couple had money, ordered the robbery, and in order to find out who he is, the police are following the route of the couple's money, from the moment they withdrew it from the bank. They came to this conclusion primarily thanks to the fact that the house was targeted, as well as that the robbers spent so much time inside, torturing the couple and asking for more money, not knowing that most of it had been used.
At some point towards the end, the author also states that the police are looking into three other recent robberies, that took place between December 29th and April 15th, in Koropi, Artemida, and Agia Paraskevi. In all three of those cases, the perpetrators broke in through an unsecured window, tied up the owners and used excessive violence to forced them to reveal where the money was.

just to add to the translation a bit:

υπεράνω πάσης υποψίας
above all suspicion
(my translation, literal)

(Oxford dictionary definition) above suspicion: too obviously good or honest to be thought capable of wrongdoing.

So I might translate this non-literally as "someone that they'd never suspect"

 

[caylee17799]

just to add to the translation a bit:

υπεράνω πάσης υποψίας
above all suspicion
(my translation, literal)

(Oxford dictionary definition) above suspicion: too obviously good or honest to be thought capable of wrongdoing.

So I might translate this non-literally as "someone that they'd never suspect"

Thanks such phrases are difficult to translate from one language to another while maintaining their full meaning and in greek we have a lot of them

 

[Satchie]

just to add to the translation a bit:

υπεράνω πάσης υποψίας
above all suspicion
(my translation, literal)

(Oxford dictionary definition) above suspicion: too obviously good or honest to be thought capable of wrongdoing.

So I might translate this non-literally as "someone that they'd never suspect"

Yes, it would also mean 'someone they trusted'. I assume that, not from reading Greek, but because that's so often the story behind murder.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

‘I was very lucky that I knew Caroline and that she loved me’
Not loved Caroline but just knew Caroline.
This story stinks. Sorry I have to say it, there is something very wrong here and I am concerned for the safety of Caroline’s baby. MOO

 

[caylee17799]

‘I was very lucky that I knew Caroline and that she loved me’
Not loved Caroline but just knew Caroline.
This story stinks. Sorry I have to say it, there is something very wrong here and I am concerned for the safety of Caroline’s baby. MOO

It does sound weird in english. In greek, however , the verb he used (γνωρισα) does not only mean "knew" (as in "I knew someone"). The way he used it, it should have been translated as "I was very lucky to have met you, I was very lucky you loved me, and I'm even luckier you're the mother of my child" (his exact words). Not that it means or proves anything, just a clarification

 

[TexLil]

DBM

 

[Patrick Jane]

It does sound weird in english. In greek, however , the verb he used (γνωρισα) does not only mean "knew" (as in "I knew someone"). The way he used it, it should have been translated as "I was very lucky to have met you, I was very lucky you loved me, and I'm even luckier you're the mother of my child" (his exact words). Not that it means or proves anything, just a clarification

Yes, it's important that we give these clarifications so we don't let the richness of the Greek language be lost in these cold, literal, algorithm-derived Google translations which strip the words of their context and sometimes deprive the speakers of the nuance and meaning of what they're truly trying to say.

 

[tayaway]

Yes, it's important that we give these clarifications so we don't let the richness of the Greek language be lost in these cold, literal, algorithm-derived Google translations which strip the words of their context and sometimes deprive the speakers of the nuance and meaning of what they're truly trying to say.

I for one appreciate all the work you guys are doing for us non-speakers. I imagine other members feel the same! Thanks so much!

 

[Satchie]

It does sound weird in english. In greek, however , the verb he used (γνωρισα) does not only mean "knew" (as in "I knew someone"). The way he used it, it should have been translated as "I was very lucky to have met you, I was very lucky you loved me, and I'm even luckier you're the mother of my child" (his exact words). Not that it means or proves anything, just a clarification

I found this:

"Ginosko – which is most often translated as “know” or “known” is a word that means so much more than that. This word implies a certain type of knowing that is perhaps best explained in several English words. In English the best way to translate it would probably be to personally, intimately, and experientially know something. As you can see it doesn’t really just mean to know about something but to have known it through personal experience."
Ginosko- A Greek Word Study

Yes, it's important that we give these clarifications so we don't let the richness of the Greek language be lost in these cold, literal, algorithm-derived Google translations which strip the words of their context and sometimes deprive the speakers of the nuance and meaning of what they're truly trying to say.

IMO it's not just google translate, English is a very shallow language, it has more words for types of money than it does for types of love.

 

[Orgona]

Yes, it's important that we give these clarifications so we don't let the richness of the Greek language be lost in these cold, literal, algorithm-derived Google translations which strip the words of their context and sometimes deprive the speakers of the nuance and meaning of what they're truly trying to say.

Let’s be honest, google translate not only misses nuances, but often gives a whole other meaning to expressions than what was originally intended.

Thanks everyone who is helping us understand what is said.

 

[Cryptic]

IMO it's not just google translate, English is a very shallow language, it has more words for types of money than it does for types of love.

I have an interest in linguistics and a learned fluency in a language other than English (my native language). In my experience "shallow" languages dont exist.

Off the top of my head, I can think of several descriptive words for love in English. Some, or many have been borrowed from other languages. But, that is common as English is a hybrid language that draws from many others.

- Unconditional, Brotherly, Passionate, Agape (from Greek), Erotic (possibly from latin), Puppy Love, Crush, infatuation, Platonic, Motherly.

Like the Greek verb, the English verb "know" can be expanded on in ways that others might not understand:

- "I know her" (casual friendship knowledge. And on occasion a polite way of saying "sexually" depending on the context).

- "I know her as a person" (Deeper, more intimate knowledge of her true personality or personhood). A non English speaker would probably think: "What the heck does that mean? Of course she is a person!"

Likewise, English verbs can have similar nuances as the Greek ones. For example, "want", "take, and "need" in English can mean a sexual desire or sexual action that is usually romantic / passionate based, but can at times be purely erotic.

 

[TexLil]

Above I read the word "contractor" was used in regard to the alleged perpetrator. It seemed like it was a nickname but could it be his former occupation? He could be connected to their remodeling contractor and thus was aware of the money? But I still don't understand why they had to kill her. How does a human being get so evil as to be able to kill a mother of a baby right there in front of the child who was presumably crying? MOO