Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[caylee17799]

It is. To be honest, almost all men I know with that name are being called Babis, and the vast majority of them are in their forties or older.

 

[Dotta]

It is. To be honest, almost all men I know with that name are being called Babis, and the vast majority of them are in their forties or older.

Sorry I didn't intend to be disrespectful. Its that just for me it sounds like a baby name

 

[caylee17799]

Sorry I didn't intend to be disrespectful. Its that just for me sounds like a baby name

Oh, don't worry, I wasn't suggesting you were being disrespectful at all! It's true, Greek diminutives (Babis, Lakis, Makis, Takis...we have a lot of them!) can sound a little childish to a non-Greek. Actually many of them come from what we would call the "little" version of the name they derive from. So the nickname Lakis, for example, derives from ApostoLakis which literally means "Little/Young Apostolos".

 

[Lola68]

Daily Mail reporting that B "caught a glimpse" of one of the perps. I appreciate the reporting of this story has a multitude of inconsistencies (and DM not the most reliable source) but IMO if this is true, I would expect the police to withhold this info because B immediately becomes an endangered witness. And B has a very clear memory of what happened less than 24 hours later despite falling unconscious. It doesn't add up.

 

[Dotta]

Oh, don't worry, I wasn't suggesting you were being disrespectful at all! It's true, Greek diminutives (Babis, Lakis, Makis, Takis...we have a lot of them!) can sound a little childish to a non-Greek. Actually many of them come from what we would call the "little" version of the name they derive from. So the nickname Lakis, for example, derives from ApostoLakis which literally means "Little/Young Apostolos".

My favourite Greek name is MIKIS and his Zorba dance I love Greece! Im your faithful tourist.

 

[Orgona]

Daily Mail reporting that B "caught a glimpse" of one of the perps. I appreciate the reporting of this story has a multitude of inconsistencies (and DM not the most reliable source) but IMO if this is true, I would expect the police to withhold this info because B immediately becomes an endangered witness. And B has a very clear memory of what happened less than 24 hours later despite falling unconscious. It doesn't add up.

I too find releasing the info that B saw them dangerous. It puts a target on his back. I can’t understand why a journalist would even think to do that when obviously we are talking about very dangerous people.

 

[caylee17799]

I too find releasing the info that B saw them dangerous. It puts a target on his back. I can’t understand why a journalist would even think to do that when obviously we are talking about very dangerous people.

I hope his safety (and his daughter's) has been ensured, otherwise what the hell....

 

[Silverlinging89]

Why on Earth would they release that he has seen the face? Jesus.

I can understand him fleeing home ASAP to get back to private life and normal surroundings. No indication he is going to stay in the house where it all happened anyway.

still not convinced relationship is nefarious when put into context of potentially religious girl, raised on an island, with a large age gap in her parents own marriage. Yes potential for exploitation but in some cultures that's still how things go - for example on Mongolian steppes no reason women would delay to 35 to have babies to chase career, yet we frequently do that in the west. Have to be careful not to judge other cultures against what we are familiar with, think we do that a lot in the west! Does make it harder to get a feel for this. I wouldn't be surprised if husband has some dodgy contacts but equally just not sure he did this. There's no reason you wouldn't remember events between being unconscious - I work in anaesthetics, and people could tell you if they'd been awake during an operation, even if they went to sleep when the error was noticed. (Not from personal experience )

 

[Dotta]

Im sorry to write this but I just dont seem to convince myself about the reality of this "gang of foreigners speaking broken Greek". The very phrase seems so contrived, almost ridiculous. What I feel is that strangulation is a crime of passion. It takes rage and effort to kill sb this way. Now the dog - what an absolutely weird way to kill the poor thing. Burglars could poison the dog, but hanging the animal is almost symbolic to me. I can see rage again in this act. Im just speculating of course and these are my feelings concerning this horrid crime.

 

[Lola68]

still not convinced relationship is nefarious when put into context of potentially religious girl, raised on an island, with a large age gap in her parents own marriage. Yes potential for exploitation but in some cultures that's still how things go - for example on Mongolian steppes no reason women would delay to 35 to have babies to chase career, yet we frequently do that in the west. Have to be careful not to judge other cultures against what we are familiar with, think we do that a lot in the west!

Thank you and totally agree - I admit to fleeting unease when I saw how young she was/age difference, but then disregarded. It's the other elements of the case I'm uncomfortable with - not to the extent that I feel it's a lie, just there's more to it (as always...)

 

[caylee17799]

Δολοφονία στα Γλυκά Νερά: Στο «μικροσκόπιο» 30 σεσημασμένοι κακοποιοί
"The three perpetrators left behind traces of DNA in the couple's house in Glyka Nera, which are expected to shed some light on the murder of the young mother."
'The authorities, after going through many cases of burglaries and robberies in the North suburbs of Athens, have focused on 12 specific incidents. More than 30 people have been involved in them, all of which will be investigated by the police, regarding their whereabouts on Monday (this must be a mistake, since the crime occurred on Tuesday) morning."
"Another possibility is that the three robbers were communicating with another member of the gang, who was out of the house, acting as a lookout man. It's expected that the cell phone antennas of the area will also be investigated, in order to pinpoint the location of cellphones transmitting during that time at Glyka Nera."

Note: Sorry in advance, but the last sentence was kinda difficult for me to translate to the point... I hope you understand what I wanna say

 

[Silverlinging89]

Thanks for translation efforts!
Yes there's a few bits that don't make sense.

personally I think that the strangler is a psychopath who enjoys killing. Strangling women, and animals, is literally textbook. It's intimate, prolonged, and gives the killer a sense of power.

if they've been torturing victims, we aren't dealing with normal burglers - but people with anti social personalities. They enjoy killing! They don't need to feel personally slighted to do it. We will probably find they've been in Jail before for violence, rape, etc, rather than theft.

 

[Angleterre]

I know things don't always add up, and I should keep an open mind, but this sounds so wrong to me.

1. She was asleep in another room than the master br
2. He gave up the location of the money "immediately" however his wife was tortured for an hour. Did he sleep through that? Did they not come to him for info until after an hour? Did they continue torturing her after they had the money?
3. I don't think I ever heard of a case where the wife was killed in a home invasion but the husband left relatively unscathed
4. Perps spoke "broken Greek" plays into xenophobia. Greece is being flooded with refugees and immigrants which brings a lot of problems but also leaves fertile ground for racist/extreme right parties

I won't be surprised if this turns out to be an escalated paid hit on the wife.
MOO

The circumstances of this remind me of the details of Jennifer PAN who arranged a burglary of her home and she was tied up and her parents were supposed to die. Mum did but Dad survived his shotgun injuries. But again there was a time of perceived torture and yet Jennifer survived unscathed. It transpired that she arranged it all. I’m certainly not saying that the husband is involved as I don’t have enough information yet to make a considered decision but something is ‘off ‘ here . I’m only just catching up here so as I read on, my comments may be futile !

 

[Angleterre]

Why on Earth would they release that he has seen the face? Jesus.

I can understand him fleeing home ASAP to get back to private life and normal surroundings. No indication he is going to stay in the house where it all happened anyway.

still not convinced relationship is nefarious when put into context of potentially religious girl, raised on an island, with a large age gap in her parents own marriage. Yes potential for exploitation but in some cultures that's still how things go - for example on Mongolian steppes no reason women would delay to 35 to have babies to chase career, yet we frequently do that in the west. Have to be careful not to judge other cultures against what we are familiar with, think we do that a lot in the west! Does make it harder to get a feel for this. I wouldn't be surprised if husband has some dodgy contacts but equally just not sure he did this. There's no reason you wouldn't remember events between being unconscious - I work in anaesthetics, and people could tell you if they'd been awake during an operation, even if they went to sleep when the error was noticed. (Not from personal experience )

Unless of course they have released the details of him being able to identify the perps because they believe he’s not in any danger of retribution because it’s believed he’s involved and it’s been done purposely to gauge a reaction and it’s been balanced against the risk and deemed worthwhile? Who knows? The police have far more details about the whole investigation than us

 

[Satchie]

The circumstances of this remind me of the details of Jennifer PAN who arranged a burglary of her home and she was tied up and her parents were supposed to die. Mum did but Dad survived his shotgun injuries. But again there was a time of perceived torture and yet Jennifer survived unscathed. It transpired that she arranged it all. I’m certainly not saying that the husband is involved as I don’t have enough information yet to make a considered decision but something is ‘off ‘ here . I’m only just catching up here so as I read on, my comments may be futile !

I guess that case is really memorable, whereas the thousands of cases where people are killed by home invaders are forgotten.

Suspect Arrested for Home Invasion, Murder of Woman and 8-Year-Old Daughter

Killer who made family listen to him murder them one by one 'to die in jail'

7-year-old boy tortured, held under water during home invasion, Texas authorities say

Dad rebuilds life after family was bound, tortured and murdered

I could do this all day

 

[Polly Graf]

Very true!

The description is yet another inconsistency though, to start with it was just that one was tall. I don’t call 1.72 Metres particularly tall....

The murder itself yet again seems sloppy, I don’t think it was intended unless one of them snapped while torturing her, a T-shirt doesn’t strike me as anyone’s first choice of a ligature and surely a psycho that wants to kill women is going to use his bare hands..

 

[Dotta]

Δολοφονία στα Γλυκά Νερά: Στο «μικροσκόπιο» 30 σεσημασμένοι κακοποιοί
"The three perpetrators left behind traces of DNA in the couple's house in Glyka Nera, which are expected to shed some light on the murder of the young mother."
'The authorities, after going through many cases of burglaries and robberies in the North suburbs of Athens, have focused on 12 specific incidents. More than 30 people have been involved in them, all of which will be investigated by the police, regarding their whereabouts on Monday (this must be a mistake, since the crime occurred on Tuesday) morning."
"Another possibility is that the three robbers were communicating with another member of the gang, who was out of the house, acting as a lookout man. It's expected that the cell phone antennas of the area will also be investigated, in order to pinpoint the location of cellphones transmitting during that time at Glyka Nera."

Note: Sorry in advance, but the last sentence was kinda difficult for me to translate to the point... I hope you understand what I wanna say

I must say I dont envy the police - they work under the extreme pressure as the case caught international attention. Just today I read info about this tragedy in media in my country, Poland. The comments were interesting - people blamed illegal immigrants. I bet the police consider solving this case as a point of honour. I mean it is not a good PR for the country if sadistic gangs run amok scaring the Greeks and the tourists. I also read that Greek Minister of Justice decided to toughen sentences for burglaries and sex crimes. I just hope for justice for Caroline!

 

[Patrick Jane]

Im sorry to write this but I just dont seem to convince myself about the reality of this "gang of foreigners speaking broken Greek". The very phrase seems so contrived, almost ridiculous. What I feel is that strangulation is a crime of passion. It takes rage and effort to kill sb this way. Now the dog - what an absolutely weird way to kill the poor thing. Burglars could poison the dog, but hanging the animal is almost symbolic to me. I can see rage again in this act. Im just speculating of course and these are my feelings concerning this horrid crime.

Thanks for translation efforts!
Yes there's a few bits that don't make sense.

personally I think that the strangler is a psychopath who enjoys killing. Strangling women, and animals, is literally textbook. It's intimate, prolonged, and gives the killer a sense of power.

if they've been torturing victims, we aren't dealing with normal burglers - but people with anti social personalities. They enjoy killing! They don't need to feel personally slighted to do it. We will probably find they've been in Jail before for violence, rape, etc, rather than theft.

I've seen some English news sources use the word strangulation in this case, but I haven't seen it used in Greek media. So I think this detail is being misreported, possibly because of a mistranslation.

Here's an example from the Greek media:

Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Πού επικεντρώνεται η έρευνα της ΕΛ.ΑΣ. | Η ΚΑΘΗΜΕΡΙΝΗ

Στην έκθεσή του ο ιατροδικαστής επιβεβαίωσε ότι ο θάνατος της 20χρονης Καρολάιν επήλθε από ασφυξία
The report of the medical examiner confirmed that the death of 20 year old Caroline occurred from asphyxiation/suffocation
(my translation)

 

[Patrick Jane]

Very true!

The description is yet another inconsistency though, to start with it was just that one was tall. I don’t call 1.72 Metres particularly tall....

The murder itself yet again seems sloppy, I don’t think it was intended unless one of them snapped while torturing her, a T-shirt doesn’t strike me as anyone’s first choice of a ligature and surely a psycho that wants to kill women is going to use his bare hands..

To be more specific in my translation, you would say, "the murderer is 1.72 meters tall". It's a description of his height, it's not saying that he was a relatively tall person.

 

[caylee17799]

I must say I dont envy the police - they work under the extreme pressure as the case caught international attention. Just today I read info about this tragedy in media in my country, Poland. The comments were interesting - people blamed illegal immigrants. I bet the police consider solving this case as a point of honour. I mean it is not a good PR for the country if sadistic gangs run amok scaring the Greeks and the tourists. I also read that Greek Minister of Justice decided to toughen sentences for burglaries and sex crimes. I just hope for justice for Caroline!

Yes, the Minister of Justice proposed that convicted felons serve 80% of their sentence, instead of 60%, before they're eligible to be released. I hope it gets put into effect. Most people here are enraged, because criminals more often than not get a slap on the wrist as a punishment, and are able to reoffend many times, which is often unfortunately the case.
Slightly off topic, I just saw on the news that a 58 year old man was shot and killed an hour or so ago outside a souvlaki restaurant in another suburb of Athens-Metamorfosi. Allegedly it was a contract killing. Jesus, the criminal activity in Greece these past weeks...