Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Orgona]

I agree, @Orgona that the presence of shoes in the re-enacted scene is very strange.

Regarding tied or not tied hands... I guess if the perps were holding a gun to the child's head, CC would comply with whatever they demanded of her and she wouldn't have put up a fight.

I agree @Winterbells but then there would be no need to suffocate her either, just say be quiet because I shoot your baby. In that case they just would need to tape her hand and mouth before they leave to delay their call to the police. Or knock her unconscious.

But I understand that being a criminal does not equal being smart.

 

[Tortoise]

Another interesting snippet from an earlier article - Bruno the dog was kept in a crate (or wire cage) in the house at night. So he first had to be removed from the crate and then his lead attached. That is quite a bold move, to approach an unknown caged dog in a darkened house, IMO.



"Then they go up to the ground floor, where they find the family dog in a metal house. A medium-sized half-bred dog, very friendly, but starting to bark.

The robbers grab it from the cage and with the leash drag it to the built staircase that leads to the upper floors and in the second turn they pass the leash through the metal handrail. [...]

The time is 4.20 according to the testimony of the neighbor of the unfortunate couple who heard the barking and looked at the clock."

Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Η συγκλονιστική κατάθεση του άντρα της Καρολάιν

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder how they managed to restrain and suffocate CC if her hands weren’t tied?

rsbm

It's reported that her hands were tied:

"...to immobilize her, they turn her face upside down and tie her hands with a pair of trousers."

Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Η συγκλονιστική κατάθεση του άντρα της Καρολάιν

 

[Dotta]

Another interesting snippet from an earlier article - Bruno the dog was kept in a crate (or wire cage) in the house at night. So he first had to be removed from the crate and then his lead attached. That is quite a bold move, to approach an unknown caged dog in a darkened house, IMO.



"Then they go up to the ground floor, where they find the family dog in a metal house. A medium-sized half-bred dog, very friendly, but starting to bark.

The robbers grab it from the cage and with the leash drag it to the built staircase that leads to the upper floors and in the second turn they pass the leash through the metal handrail. [...]

The time is 4.20 according to the testimony of the neighbor of the unfortunate couple who heard the barking and looked at the clock."

Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Η συγκλονιστική κατάθεση του άντρα της Καρολάιν

I have never heard it. How awful! Poor poor doggie

 

[Orgona]

rsbm

It's reported that her hands were tied:

"...to immobilize her, they turn her face upside down and tie her hands with a pair of trousers."

Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Η συγκλονιστική κατάθεση του άντρα της Καρολάιν

Yes, I do remember that, but on the re-enactment video her hands were next to her.
This is also one of the many things why I’m wondering if that video is correctly depicting the truth.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Wow, I can’t help but agree with others that this re-enactment doesn’t seem right.
Never mind the clothes, maybe it’s just sloppy graphic work and they wanted to depict a sleeping dress and pajamas. I can’t find explanation for the shoes, though, so that must be wrong. Actually I could, but...

I wonder how they managed to restrain and suffocate CC if her hands weren’t tied?
I also can’t help but notice that one doesn’t need the nose to dial any number if the actual hands were free.
Another strange thing is if the upper arms are taped to the body, one can still reach their head to remove some of the tape when the head is bowed down unless their underarm is strangely short or their upper body is way to long.

This is so wrong on so many levels that I’m wondering how trustworthy this source is.
What are the odds that they have excess to the real report or to policemen working on the case?
Would this be normal in Greece?

If this is truly how LE found the scene, this could be the stupidest staging right down to how someone forgot to take off their shoes. That would be really stupid and can’t be right?

I suspect the reports are sensationalized for more views and wanting to report any information first without really making sure how true it is.

Or is this a respected channel which vets their information carefully?

All IMHO

I wouldn't think this source is reliable as to specific details (e.g. clothing, shoes, etc), but would suspect that the general picture is somewhat accurate as to what they have learned from police sources. This channel had another recreation (this one of the purported robbery as alleged by the husband) a week or so ago and had some specific details wrong, such as not including a revolver, which, according to the husband, was one of the weapons used by the alleged perpetrators.

So, I'd say it'd be best to have confirmation from other media sources before relying too much on this report, especially as to how it pertains to specific details.

 

[Patrick Jane]

One thing I'd take from the media re-enactment is that the baby was next to the mother.

And so we can confirm this from a second media source, maybe @Tortoise can locate this, and I believe that it's been posted in this thread, there are reports that a policeman said that the sight of the baby trying to "wake" its dead mother was the most troubling thing he's ever seen in his entire career as a policeman.

 

[Winterbells]

I agree @Winterbells but then there would be no need to suffocate her either, just say be quiet because I shoot your baby. In that case they just would need to tape her hand and mouth before they leave to delay their call to the police. Or knock her unconscious.

But I understand that being a criminal does not equal being smart.

You're right.

 

[tayaway]

One thing I'd take from the media re-enactment is that the baby was next to the mother.

And so we can confirm this from a second media source, maybe @Tortoise can locate this, and I believe that it's been posted in this thread, there are reports that a policeman said that the sight of the baby trying to "wake" its dead mother was the most troubling thing he's ever seen in his entire career as a policeman.

So the baby was on the bed with her mother from the approximate time of Caroline's death around 4:30 until 6:20 or so, when the police showed up? Would the baby have sat there for an hour and a half? Wouldn't it be strange for Babis to hear her crying and screaming, but no sounds from Caroline? Did he try to climb on the bed to help his daughter, or to see what was wrong?

 

[Orgona]

I wouldn't think this source is reliable as to specific details (e.g. clothing, shoes, etc), but would suspect that the general picture is somewhat accurate as to what they have learned from police sources. This channel had another recreation (this one of the purported robbery as alleged by the husband) a week or so ago and had some specific details wrong, such as not including a revolver, which, according to the husband, was one of the weapons used by the alleged perpetrators.

So, I'd say it'd be best to have confirmation from other media sources before relying too much on this report, especially as to how it pertains to specific details.

Thanks, I suspected as much.
We are so lucky with you @Patrick Jane and @caylee17799 and @Tortoise and all the others who can translate and/or can help us to put whatever we read in perspective.
I for one appreciate it very much and I know others do too.

 

[Patrick Jane]

So the baby was on the bed with her mother from the approximate time of Caroline's death around 4:30 until 6ish, when the police showed up? Would the baby have sat there for an hour and a half? Wouldn't it be strange for Babis to hear her crying and screaming, but no sounds from Caroline? Did he try to climb on the bed to help his daughter, or to see what was wrong?

We can now say that, according to the police, the police arrived at the scene around 6:20 a.m. The policeman states this in the video I posted earlier (see below). He makes this statement around the 1:10 mark in the video.

this is a policeman on a segment of a Greek morning show

around 6:00 the policeman rejects the journalist's statement that "no DNA has been found" and corrects him to say we can't say for sure that "no DNA has been found" as apparently "a little (bit of) DNA" was found

at 2:30 they discuss that, as of yesterday, the husband has returned to live at the house

 

[Patrick Jane]

from an early media report:

"Police called to the Athens home of a British mother who was murdered during a horror break-in found her 11-month-old daughter 'hitting' the body and 'trying to wake her up'."

Greece burglary murder: Woman's daughter was 'trying to wake her up' as police arrived | Daily Mail Online

 

[Patrick Jane]

Γλυκά Νερά: Εγκαταλείπει για πάντα τη μεζονέτα ο πιλότος – Στο σημείο «μηδέν» οι έρευνες - ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

there's a lot here in this report

let me start by saying, according to this reporting, the husband has decided to soon "empty out" (i.e. move out) of the house, and move somewhere away from there.

there are no signs of forced entry on the window either

there's much more here and in the video, that I'll talk about later when I can

 

[Omasa4]

I’ve been looking at the time line of their relationship and what stands out for me is that it would seem they eloped or even that CC might not even know she was travelling to Portugal for their wedding. On her SM she says “vacay time finally” as they fly out to Portugal On 13 July 2019 and it seems they got married on 15 July 2019 which was one day before their second anniversary. Nothing really to read into this but it stood out to me as interesting timelines especially as there doesn’t seem to be any pics of family or friends at the wedding either . Wonder if when they arrived in Portugal, they both decided (or one of them convinced the other) that they should get married ASAP - hence her post “when you find the person you want to spend the rest of your life with you want your life to start as soon as possible” .

She must have then got pregnant very soon after for her to have had the baby in June 2020 so it could be that she was overwhelmed with everything and therefore need for therapy.

all MOO

 

[Dotta]

I’ve been looking at the time line of their relationship and what stands out for me is that it would seem they eloped or even that CC might not even know she was travelling to Portugal for their wedding. On her SM she says “vacay time finally” as they fly out to Portugal On 13 July 2019 and it seems they got married on 15 July 2019 which was one day before their second anniversary. Nothing really to read into this but it stood out to me as interesting timelines especially as there doesn’t seem to be any pics of family or friends at the wedding either . Wonder if when they arrived in Portugal, they both decided (or one of them convinced the other) that they should get married ASAP - hence her post “when you find the person you want to spend the rest of your life with you want your life to start as soon as possible” .

She must have then got pregnant very soon after for her to have had the baby in June 2020 so it could be that she was overwhelmed with everything and therefore need for therapy.

all MOO

Wedding in Portugal??? How extraordinary! I thought it was on her beloved Greek Island with family and friends.

 

[Orgona]

Γλυκά Νερά: Εγκαταλείπει για πάντα τη μεζονέτα ο πιλότος – Στο σημείο «μηδέν» οι έρευνες - ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

there's a lot here in this report

let me start by saying, according to this reporting, the husband has decided to soon "empty out" (i.e. move out) of the house, and move somewhere away from there.

there are no signs of forced entry on the window either

there's much more here and in the video, that I'll talk about later when I can

I had a go with DeepL translate and found this interesting:

“According to exclusive information from MEGA:

The window had no signs of forced entry, no glass was broken underneath, nor did the glass have any screwdriver marks
It was pulled out and resting on the floor, in the middle of the room in the basement and there were scattered discarded screws around.”

And also this:

“At the same time, according to the police editor of the newspapers "To Vima" and "Ta Nea", Vassilis Lambropoulos, the only findings that the scientists of the forensic laboratories of the Hellenic Police are a fingerprint -unrelated to the crime- of a foreign worker and a... palmar imprint of the 32-year-old pilot on the adhesive tape with which he was tied to his face, body and legs.”

And this:

“It is also noteworthy that no traces of gloves were found in this film (there may have been a pasting of part of plastic gloves, fibers of cloth, etc.) that were obviously worn by the robbers, since they left no other trace in the house.“

On the other hand somewhere in the article it says LE hasn’t found much biological evidence at the place of the other 10 robberies either.
Is this correct? Because then it would place the statements above in a different light again. Then the question would arise just how good the forensics team really is, or are those some genius robbers?

I’m sure that I’m not sure what to think.

All IMHO

 

[Lindsay Lou Who]

One thing I'd take from the media re-enactment is that the baby was next to the mother.

And so we can confirm this from a second media source, maybe @Tortoise can locate this, and I believe that it's been posted in this thread, there are reports that a policeman said that the sight of the baby trying to "wake" its dead mother was the most troubling thing he's ever seen in his entire career as a policeman.

The thought of what this poor baby witnessed is heartbreaking

 

[everybodhi]

Would shutters perhaps need to be opened in order to let light in (whilst hiding money in the Monopoly box?). Most careless though, to not close them again.

The murderer had no problem allegedly finding the money in the monopoly box without benefit of any sunshine whatsoever.

 

[Kemug]

It was pulled out and resting on the floor, in the middle of the room in the basement and there were scattered discarded screws around.”

Does that mean that the window was pulled out from the inside? Hmm.

 

[everybodhi]

BBM

Snipped
The window had no signs of forced entry, no glass was broken underneath, nor did the glass have any screwdriver marks
It was pulled out and resting on the floor, in the middle of the room in the basement and there were scattered discarded screws around.”

And also this:

“At the same time, according to the police editor of the newspapers "To Vima" and "Ta Nea", Vassilis Lambropoulos, the only findings that the scientists of the forensic laboratories of the Hellenic Police are a fingerprint -unrelated to the crime- of a foreign worker and a... palmar imprint of the 32-year-old pilot on the adhesive tape with which he was tied to his face, body and legs.”

And this:

“It is also noteworthy that no traces of gloves were found in this film (there may have been a pasting of part of plastic gloves, fibers of cloth, etc.) that were obviously worn by the robbers, since they left no other trace in the house.“

On the other hand somewhere in the article it says LE hasn’t found much biological evidence at the place of the other 10 robberies either.
Is this correct? Because then it would place the statements above in a different light again. Then the question would arise just how good the forensics team really is, or are those some genius robbers?

I’m sure that I’m not sure what to think.

All IMHO

Any builder who installs windows that can be unscrewed and removed from the outside should not have a license, you may as well just tape a key onto the door. jmo
Strange that they would bring the window and the screws into the house after removal, what would be the reason? To hide it?
They already allegedly had a “look-out” accomplice outside the house, according to BA.
If the windows were unscrewed and removed from the inside, that’s another story.

I guess they had enough DNA to link the arrested Georgian suspect to a previous burglary.
Police investigating murder of British mum in Greece make arrest
“DNA analysis has linked him to a burglary in Pikermi on March 7 when an elderly couple were tied up while raiders ransacked their home.”