Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

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  • #761
I think we dont really know what police have up their sleeve, what they dismiss or dont dismiss. LE often bluff and watch for reactions. They also answer the questions of the media noncommittially, they are notoriously tight lipped and vague. Good! The less they talk to the media the better!
 
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  • #762
But would there be daylight outside? Perhaps there was a street light that helped light up the basement. Are we sure there was no light in the basement?
I checked on the sunrise times recently.

May 11th, Athens

Civil twilight 5:49am (just about light enough outside to see without artificial lighting)
Sunrise 6:18am (two minutes after BA called police)

Sunrise and sunset times in Athens
 
  • #763
But would there be daylight outside? Perhaps there was a street light that helped light up the basement. Are we sure there was no light in the basement?
We don't actually know what the lighting set up was in the basement.
I was just thinking out loud when I started talking about the basement lighting.
B has allegedly said that he thought that perhaps he'd accidentally left the shutters open in the basement.
This made me think several things.
Firstly, why not say 'one of us may have left the shutters open'?
Secondly, given the weight of what had happened that night, and the important role the shutters played, if this was me, I think I'd realise it was I who had made the fatal error of leaving them open, unless I frequently opened and sometimes forgot to close them, in which case, I'd have no idea. For example, I frequently don't lock the doors to my roof terrace because the cat is constantly wanting to come in, then go out, then come in again.... and I'm not on the ground floor, so I'm not too concerned.
SO, if he can't remember whether he left them open, this suggests to me that a) he's the only one who opens them and b) it's not rare for him to do so. So why does he open and (sometimes) close them? Is it that there's no light in the basement and he needs to open the shutters to let some light in so he can see what he's doing? (like hiding money in the Monopoly box, for example).
But it sounds like it would have been dark in the basement when the robbers struck and they managed to locate the money, so it does sound like there was a light in there.
And that leaves me with the question, why does B open the shutters at all?
But then there was another report somewhere that suggested that the shutters were faulty.
So I give up.
 
  • #764
The Monopoly Game - I played it many many years ago. I seem to remember the goal is to drive your adversary to bankrupcy. What irony! Like a sick joke of the Fate.
 
  • #765
There seems to be some confusion in the press about whether B has returned to his house to move his belongings out, or to remain there.

I don't think there's confusion, as these reports can be reconciled.

Based on the media reports:

We know that he authorized the cleaners to come and thoroughly clean the house. And we've seen video of this.
We know that he's moved back in.
He's apparently told the press that he intends to move out. When is that? A week? A month? We don't know. We'll see when that happens.
 
  • #766
I don't think there's confusion, as these reports can be reconciled.

Based on the media reports:

We know that he authorized the cleaners to come and thoroughly clean the house. And we've seen video of this.
We know that he's moved back in.
He's apparently told the press that he intends to move out. When is that? A week? A month? We don't know. We'll see when that happens.
Oh ok, I see.
 
  • #767
Apologies if this has already been posted, but interesting points from the article that @Patrick Jane originally referenced (BBM):

Γλυκά Νερά: Εγκαταλείπει για πάντα τη μεζονέτα ο πιλότος – Στο σημείο «μηδέν» οι έρευνες - ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

Police, with the initial basic assessment that this is a group of criminals who try not to leave traces and act without any hesitation, torturing the victims, etc. This is despite the fact that in the tragic incident in the Maisonette of Glikon Nero, several questions are raised about what exactly happened (ss. Reasons for the murder of Caroline, way of fainting of the 32-year-old pilot based on reports of medical examiners and other experts).

Authorities' investigation is now focusing on mobile data and scanning the area to determine if disposable phones were activated and which route the robbers-murderers followed.

As for the "electronic" sketch that is said to have been created based on the testimony of the 32-year-old pilot who stated that he saw one of the perpetrators who fell off the mask he was wearing, it is considered that it is not of great importance at the moment.
 
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  • #768
Πέπλο μυστηρίου για το έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά - ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

Veil of mystery for the crime in Glyka Nera

Concerns in EL.AS. for the rare case of bloody robbery with "invisible" perpetrators and no trace of genetic material n The search for "business" mobile phones, the comparison with the murder in Kifissia and the fingerprint analysis system

Unfortunately, you need an active subscription to view the full article, but will continue sleuthing

Murder in Kifissia (?)
https://www.thenationalherald.com/a...riend_in_kifissia_charged_with_murder-267353/
 
  • #769
In previous robberies criminals didn't kill anybody. Granted - they were brutal and beat the victims but cold blooded murder? No way. They got what they wanted and fled. And even left DNA (Georgian man). Murder in Caroline case is personal. I think she was attacked while sleeping. The same with the dog - he was peacefully snoring in his crate when the monster/s killed him. Speculating! JMO
 
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  • #770
In previous robberies criminals didn't kill anybody. Granted - they were brutal and beat the victims but cold blooded murder? No way. They got what they wanted and fled. And even left DNA (Georgian man). Murder in Caroline case is personal. I think she was attacked while sleeping. The same with the dog - he was peacefully snoring in his crate when the monster/s killed him. Speculating! JMO
I thought there was an older guy who got beaten and deceased at the hospital. Somewhere it was in an article many posts ago IIRC

ETA: found it
Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021
“In the same year, an elderly couple were targeted in Ioannina, the closest Greek city to Albania. The husband was tied up and attacked and died in hospital from head injuries sustained in the robbery. Cash and jewellery was stolen —just like the raid which ended with Caroline’s murder.”
 
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  • #771
I thought there was an older guy who got beaten and deceased at the hospital. Somewhere it was in an article many posts ago IIRC

ETA: found it
Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021
“In the same year, an elderly couple were targeted in Ioannina, the closest Greek city to Albania. The husband was tied up and attacked and died in hospital from head injuries sustained in the robbery. Cash and jewellery was stolen —just like the raid which ended with Caroline’s murder.”
Oh, I didn't know the man died. How tragic! RIP. Head injuries mean vicious beating. So the Modus Operandi is different. Albanian gangs are infamous for brutality (if they were the perpetrators in the case you mentioned). Caroline wasn't beaten, she suffocated (long and horrific death as they say). No bruising, scratches etc according to media reports (conflicting ones).
 
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  • #772
Oh, I didn't know the man died. How tragic! RIP. Head injuries mean viscious beating. So the Modus Operandi is different. Albanian gangs are infamous for brutality (if they were the perpetrators in the case you mentioned). Caroline wasn't beaten, she suffocated (long and horrific death as they say). No bruising, scratches etc according to media reports (conflicting ones).
Yes @Dotta , that seems definitely more brutal. (Well, except the dog in CC’s home)
 
  • #773
Well, one must always be on one's guard it seems. Being careful might save our lives. Carelessness regarding safety might prove lethal. I tell you what - I have the best security system in the world - my neighbours haha. They see and hear everything! :) I dont mind. When there is suspicious commotion all my neighbours leave their flats and investigate! They are better than cops. Any stranger in our block of flats is eyed with suspicion and interrogated hihi. I bet my neighbours would solve any crime. I love them, nosy and all!
 
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  • #774
In previous robberies criminals didn't kill anybody. Granted - they were brutal and beat the victims but cold blooded murder? No way. They got what they wanted and fled. And even left DNA (Georgian man). Murder in Caroline case is personal. I think she was attacked while sleeping. The same with the dog - he was peacefully snoring in his crate when the monster/s killed him. Speculating! JMO

I think I'd agree with your opinion that it appears that the victim was attacked while sleeping. According to the reporting I posted earlier, there was no evidence of DNA on the nails of the victim, which would imply that there was no initial struggle, which would imply that the victim was suffocated when she would be the most vulnerable, which would be when she was sleeping. JMO
 
  • #775
Sorry, but I don't understand your point? Apparently the shutters were open when the money was taken from the Monopoly box.
But it was in the dark of night
 
  • #776
Has there been anymore said about that reconstruction Patrick? Other journalists must have queried the obvious things like his shoes and Caroline unrestrained?

The fingernails are a real mystery, her hands must have been held or tied while she was suffocated, even if she was sound asleep she’d have woken up and at least managed to scratch surely and regardless who the murderer is you’d think there would be some trace of them, even B wouldn’t be able to explain his skin under her nails.

The tape is equally weird, same story, whether it’s truly a vicious gang or someone closer to home it’s still nearly impossible to use tape with gloves on and without them you’d never avoid leaving at least a partial print or 2.
I don’t buy robbers in PPE at all, or them doing a forensic clean up afterwards, I think if you’ve got shaved hair and gloves it’s quite possibly to not leave traces, but not when there’s a physical assault.
 
  • #777
One thing I'd take from the media re-enactment is that the baby was next to the mother.

And so we can confirm this from a second media source, maybe @Tortoise can locate this, and I believe that it's been posted in this thread, there are reports that a policeman said that the sight of the baby trying to "wake" its dead mother was the most troubling thing he's ever seen in his entire career as a policeman.

I think we can definitely confirm that the baby was in the bed next to the victim at the time LE arrived.

Here's another report of what I was referring to earlier. This is a media interview with a policeman.

at 0:55 the policeman describes talking to some of his fellow policemen (who were among those first on the scence) who told him that while on the job they've seen people die in front of them, they've seen people that have committed suicide, but this image shocked them/shook them up, this particular image of a baby "on top of" its (deceased) mother nudging/prodding her, trying to wake her up . . . (shifting from the plural tense to the singular tense) when one of his fellow policemen described this scene to him, that policeman (who had witnessed it) began sobbing.

 
  • #778
But it was in the dark of night
Yeah, sorry, I mistakenly thought it happened at around sunrise, but that wasn't until around 6.30am.
 
  • #779
Who are these people, thieving is bad enough but why the extreme cruelty, even to the dog! imo, rbbm.



LBC
Greece offers €300,000 reward for killers who strangled British-born student in front of baby
''The Greek government has offered a €300,000 (about £257,000) reward to try to track down the culprits behind the murder of a British-born student in her suburban Athens home.

The reward was publicised hours after Caroline Crouch, 20, was strangled in front of her baby daughter by armed burglars who had bound her husband, Babis Anagnostopoulos, to a chair after breaking in. The intruders also killed the family’s dog, leaving it hanging from a banister in the house.''

''Crouch is believed to have been tortured for up to an hour as the thieves tried to coerce her into revealing the location of thousands of pounds of cash and jewellery, which they then made off with.''

''The bounty is highly unusual in Greece – according to the broadcaster ERT there have only ever been four previously, in cases of terrorism or to catch hardened criminals.''
Strange. Looks like they could have gotten the information from the husband faster, especially since they were torturing his wife and was pointing a gun at the baby. How did the husband know what they were doing if he was downstairs, with tape over his eyes?
 
  • #780
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