Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #1

[Linda7NJ]

No one? If both parents are in prison, where do children go?

Prison? Who goes to prison for welfare fraud? I don't think you understand just how common it is.




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[mjak]

I think it would be in the child's best interest to at least have supervised visitation with the only family she knows.
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I agree with this assumption of course as long as there is no evidence of abuse of the child. I think many people are viewing the poverty and community which this child was found as being indicative of abuse. I don't agree with that. I think it is a culture which maybe an unacceptable way of life according to our western norms. Applying concepts such as kidnapping and child traffiking maybe inaccurate in this situation. Birthing a child makes you a parent in the scientific definition, but has nothing to do with being a mom or dad. These people are this child's mom and dad. This child was probably obtained in a manner in which many children are obtained in this culture, by taking in babies and young kids who's parents offer them for a variety of reasons. I don't doubt there is a financial incentive, but I also don't think it is the horrifying crime we would view it, but as a semi norm within the gypsy community. Does this make it okay? I don't know, and for this one little girl I do not think that is really the important issue. What matters is her wellbeing and if these are the only Mom and Dad she has known, and they have cared for her the best they could than abruptly removing her from them in this manner has to be psychologically horrific for her. Nope, I don't think children should be begging in the streets, I also don't think children should go naked or not be educated or be care givers to younger siblings by the age of 8. However, in many many cultures these things are the norm and needed to be respected even if we can't understand or condone it.

mjak

 

[Linda7NJ]

You really need it spelled out? Why do you think the woman had 14 children registered to her? Out of love for children?

Considering they typically marry very young it's not out if the realm of possibility they could be her grandchildren.


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[jjenny]

Considering they typically marry very young it's not out if the realm of possibility they could be her grandchildren.


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They are registered as her children so she gets benefits on them.

"The Gypsy camp suspects, Eleftheria Dimopoulou, 40, and Christos Salis, 39, received more than $3,420 in monthly welfare payments after declaring they had 14 children, eight of whom are unaccounted for and presumed not to exist, authorities said."

http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20131023/NEWS04/310239959

 

[Elley Mae]

Considering they typically marry very young it's not out if the realm of possibility they could be her grandchildren.


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Maybe you should read some of the articles, she has already claimed their her kids.

 

[Linda7NJ]

They are registered as her children so she gets benefits on them.

"The Gypsy camp suspects, Eleftheria Dimopoulou, 40, and Christos Salis, 39, received more than $3,420 in monthly welfare payments after declaring they had 14 children, eight of whom are unaccounted for and presumed not to exist, authorities said."

http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20131023/NEWS04/310239959

Is prison the norm for welfare fraud there? Is that why they're in prison?


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[jjenny]

I agree with this assumption of course as long as there is no evidence of abuse of the child. I think many people are viewing the poverty and community which this child was found as being indicative of abuse. I don't agree with that. I think it is a culture which maybe an unacceptable way of life according to our western norms. Applying concepts such as kidnapping and child traffiking maybe inaccurate in this situation. Birthing a child makes you a parent in the scientific definition, but has nothing to do with being a mom or dad. These people are this child's mom and dad. This child was probably obtained in a manner in which many children are obtained in this culture, by taking in babies and young kids who's parents offer them for a variety of reasons. I don't doubt there is a financial incentive, but I also don't think it is the horrifying crime we would view it, but as a semi norm within the gypsy community. Does this make it okay? I don't know, and for this one little girl I do not think that is really the important issue. What matters is her wellbeing and if these are the only Mom and Dad she has known, and they have cared for her the best they could than abruptly removing her from them in this manner has to be psychologically horrific for her. Nope, I don't think children should be begging in the streets, I also don't think children should go naked or not be educated or be care givers to younger siblings by the age of 8. However, in many many cultures these things are the norm and needed to be respected even if we can't understand or condone it.

mjak

Considering they are both in custody while awaiting trial, where do you think she should be if not removed from them? No, really?

 

[windstorm]

I'm just going to throw this out there. She isn't their child and they can't produce documentation that they have custody of her. They have also changed their story several times of how they got her. I would much MUCH rather have her taken by authorities and checked out to see if she does belong to someone - one of these cases we've been working diligently on - than to just turn our heads because "they love her like she were their own."

I also want to say that just because they apparently fed and clothed her, doesn't mean she wasn't being abused, neglected or used (the whole creepy dancing thing). Ariel Castro fed and clothed the 3 girls he kidnapped, too.

And, I can see people in a Roma gypsy camp letting her out in "public" regardless of how they got her. Nobody there is paying attention or obviously caring about where the little blond girl came from.

 

[gxm]

I don't think we know that this girl, in particular, has been singled out to be mistreated among the Romas. We don't know that this girl was singled out and mistreated among the family she was living with.

We know that the family did not have legal custody.

But I have no evidence that she was treated differently than the other Roma children.

So, the question is: are we going to remove all of them? (All the children?)

Are we removing her because of how she was treated?

Are we removing her because she is not related by blood to them? (Even if her blood relations dumped her and these people took her in out of charity (albeit without going through proper channels))

Or are we removing her because she is blonde?

I showed her photo to my daughter. My daughter thought she looked sad too. I asked her to imagine the police showing up at the door, arresting us, and taking her to another home, even if it was nice and clean and had new toys, but they said, "I'm sorry those are not your parents. You can't live with them any more."

All I'm saying is that we don't know how she was treated. And in regards to their other illegal activity: we don't remove children from their parents for just any crime.

I think we need to investigate. I think we need to absolutely understand this situation.

But we definitely should not assume that she MUST be removed from this home where she was found.

Yes. She must be removed. The "parents" have no legal right to keep her as a pet. She's a human child. She deserves to be adopted through the proper channels. IMO, that should include assessing the home environment of any and all prospective parents.

Further, parents can have a child removed due to criminal activity. It is not uncommon (but sadly not common enough).

 

[Linda7NJ]

Maybe you should read some of the articles, she has already claimed their her kids.

I have and IMO they are clearly biased against the Roma community.


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[jjenny]

Is prison the norm for welfare fraud there? Is that why they're in prison?


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What do you think is the norm for welfare fraud (or fraud in general) here? Nobody ends up in prison over it?

 

[jjenny]

Considering they typically marry very young it's not out if the realm of possibility they could be her grandchildren.


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Yea, marry young. She is five-six now, in another seven years she could be married off and "parents" would get a dowry for her.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm just going to throw this out there. She isn't their child and they can't produce documentation that they have custody of her. They have also changed their story several times of how they got her. I would much MUCH rather have her taken by authorities and checked out to see if she does belong to someone - one of these cases we've been working diligently on - than to just turn our heads because "they love her like she were their own."

I also want to say that just because they apparently fed and clothed her, doesn't mean she wasn't being abused, neglected or used (the whole creepy dancing thing). Ariel Castro fed and clothed the 3 girls he kidnapped, too.

And, I can see people in a Roma gypsy camp letting her out in "public" regardless of how they got her. Nobody there is paying attention or obviously caring about where the little blond girl came from.

I said they appeared to love her and I advocated they have supervised visitation.
I never said anyone should turn their heads. I believe it's being handled poorly and not in the child's best interest,


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[Elley Mae]

I have and IMO they are clearly biased against the Roma community.


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That's your opinion. The police in greece think differently thank goodness.

 

[jjenny]

I said they appeared to love her and I advocated they have supervised visitation.
I never said anyone should turn their heads. I believe it's being handled poorly and not in the child's best interest,


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So the child should be taken to visit them while they are in custody, even though she isn't related to them and they had a falsified birth certificate on her? That's not going to be damaging to a child?

 

[gxm]

I think the US media likes the Baby Lisa angle because it gives the story an American connection. News coverage of major stories in other countries are very scarce here. A little blonde baby kidnapped out of her home in Missouri, transported thousands of miles away, to live with a Roma family...That's a great story. I think that if they find out the child was abducted from some European country (unless it's maybe Britain), you won't hear much about this case anymore in the US media. It's the whole "Could this girl be an American?" that the US media loves.

Also, if they do put Maria and her siblings up for adoption, does anyone else think the number who want to adopt Maria compared to the number who want to adopt one of her siblings is going to be significantly higher? I think it is going to disturb us greatly. IMO...Only the families who offer to adopt any of the children (okay, I will make an exception if some are much older) should be allowed to adopt, since it shows they are truly desperate for a child, not just want one who is blonde-haired, blue-eyed and is all over the news.

ETA: One more thing...I also think that there's a good chance Maria sees herself as Roma if she's been living with this family for as long as she can remember. So I feel that a family adopting her, who wasn't interested in any of her Roma siblings, could be very problematic, especially if they raise her to believe they "saved" her from them. I don't think she could be adopted by anyone with any sort of anti-Roma prejudice, by people who are going to "deprogram" her as soon as gets to their home.

BBM.

Perhaps because she has received all the media attention but if you are insinuating that fair/blonde/blue-eyed children are more desirable than darker complected children, I would disagree. Personally, I love dark complexions and if given a choice, on looks alone, that would be my preference.

IMO, little M**** has not had a happy childhood so far and I doubt she'll miss the environment she was removed from. Hopefully she will find a home where she is loved and nurtured and allowed to be a little child, not a beggar or dancing bear.

 

[Linda7NJ]

So the child should be taken to visit them while they are in custody, even though she isn't related to them and they had a falsified birth certificate on her? That's not going to be damaging to a child?

They are her family,

The only family she has ever known. Blood and a piece of paper mean nothing to that 6 yr old child ripped away from the only family she's ever known. Put yourself in her shoes.


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[Strawberry Fields]

If these people who had Maria are really guilty of welfare fraud and seemingly raking in money for supposedly having 14 children, I cannot help but think that at some point they would be offered a large sum of money for their "unusual child" and since they have a penchant for money, if the price is right, she would have been sold "trafficked" eventually. In my opinion, they saw her as a money maker from day one, when they "acquired her". Wonder how they treat their own biological children or if this woman has ever really given birth.

Sadly, if the biological mother has not come forward by now, Maria's true identity may never be determined. MOO of course.

 

[jjenny]

There are a lot of trafficked women in Europe, apparently. Maria could be a child of one of them. In which case it's not likely parents would ever come forward.

 

[SweetT]

I agree with this assumption of course as long as there is no evidence of abuse of the child. I think many people are viewing the poverty and community which this child was found as being indicative of abuse. I don't agree with that. I think it is a culture which maybe an unacceptable way of life according to our western norms. Applying concepts such as kidnapping and child traffiking maybe inaccurate in this situation. Birthing a child makes you a parent in the scientific definition, but has nothing to do with being a mom or dad. These people are this child's mom and dad. This child was probably obtained in a manner in which many children are obtained in this culture, by taking in babies and young kids who's parents offer them for a variety of reasons. I don't doubt there is a financial incentive, but I also don't think it is the horrifying crime we would view it, but as a semi norm within the gypsy community. Does this make it okay? I don't know, and for this one little girl I do not think that is really the important issue. What matters is her wellbeing and if these are the only Mom and Dad she has known, and they have cared for her the best they could than abruptly removing her from them in this manner has to be psychologically horrific for her. Nope, I don't think children should be begging in the streets, I also don't think children should go naked or not be educated or be care givers to younger siblings by the age of 8. However, in many many cultures these things are the norm and needed to be respected even if we can't understand or condone it.

mjak

I agree with your post, I would also say that I have been to the border of the US and Mexico and there is pandering/begging from the Mexican children and has been going on for yrs and yrs. Does this mean that all those children are abused and should be taken from their parents? I think it is just their culture and it is very hard for those who are not like them to understand. I try very hard to see it from other perspectives as I know we/our culture is not the norm everywhere. I certainly do not condone kidnapping or child/human trafficking at all but I try not to judge someone because of how they are raised and what culture they are raised in.