Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #2

[jjenny]

Because they raised her as their child and they are the only family she has ever known and it would be horribly cruel and unnecessarily disruptive to uproot her and remove her from the only home she's ever had and assume that we are superior and know what is best for her.

You do realize they are in custody awaiting trial? Even if abduction charges go away, they are still facing fraud charges. And the child has already been removed.

 

[Oblio]

Why can't she be placed with her "siblings"? Were they removed? For all intents and purposes, she is part of a sibling group, and any home found suitable for them, should be suitable for her.

 

[greenpalm]

Not abused? Do you not see how filthy they are in the photos? She lives in one room home with no running water, and you think the child should be given to her? And then there is Mr. R who said he can't remember all his children names "because there are so many of them."

A one room home with no running water is not abuse. It's poverty. Loving poverty is a damn site better than wealthy abuse. We have no reason to believe Maria was abused in either her biological home (in which she lived briefly) or the home in which she was living - even if her adoption was not a legal one, that still does not mean she was kidnapped and it certainly does not lead me to conclude she was abused.

Poverty is not abuse.

 

[pieper4]

They haven't finished DNA testing yet. So it should be a potential biomom at this point.

Duly edited.

 

[jjenny]

A one room home with no running water is not abuse. It's poverty. Loving poverty is a damn site better than wealthy abuse. We have no reason to believe Maria was abused in either her biological home (in which she lived briefly) or the home in which she was living - even if her adoption was not a legal one, that still does not mean she was kidnapped and it certainly does not lead me to conclude she was abused.

Poverty is not abuse.

She never lived in that biological home. The supposed bio mom claimed she gave birth to her in Greece and couldn't take her home to Bulgaria.
As to not have running water and having filthy children, it might not be abuse in Bulgaria, but here in US I wouldn't surprised if CPS came in knocking if children were living under those conditions.

 

[lisser]

Why in the world would they return her to either? It wasn't a legal adoption and the proposed bio mom admits to giving her up (well, that's what she admits to with M, but she also reportedly admitted she sold some of her other children).

Because, from all that we have read about so far, with the stigma attached to the Roma people, if she is biologically Roma, she likely would not be adopted by a non-Roma family. I have a feeling that the "mother" will be released from custody, as there was no abduction. I imagine the other charges will be applied only to the father.

If the girl is going to be shuffled around and placed in families or an orphanage that would mistreat her simply because she is Roma, (and that definitely happens), she would be better cared for where she originally was.

 

[dotr]

My heart goes out to the parents who are still looking for their missing children . I imagine more than a few had their hopes dashed these last few days.
Hope some good comes out of all this.

 

[raeann]

You do realize they are in custody awaiting trial? Even if abduction charges go away, they are still facing fraud charges. And the child has already been removed.

I have been away for a few days and only able to be reading through tap a talk occasionally, but I also have been completely unable to grasp the advocacy for returning this child to criminals who are already in jail, who have a home that was full of stolen electronic goods, illegal drugs, illegal weapons, fraudulent and stolen credit cards, a history of multiple fraudulent government assistance claims, prior criminal records, evidence of child abuse and neglect in the home, AND OF COURSE participation in human trafficking--which is exactly what the buying and selling of HUMANS is called. I guess I missed something, because it sure doesn't sound like a place any child should be "sent" back to for any reason whatsoever.


jmo

 

[jjenny]

And then we have some advocating that child should be returned to the proposed bio home.
So far we have the proposed bio father quoted that he doesn't know the names of all his children because he has so many.
Proposed bio mom quoted that she sold and given away some of her children because she has so many.
Proposed brother quoted that he doesn't know how many sisters he has.
Proposed siblings looking very dirty (and mother knows full well they are dirty, based on what she is quoted as).
Looks like a perfect home to send a child to me.

 

[greenpalm]

You do realize they are in custody awaiting trial? Even if abduction charges go away, they are still facing fraud charges. And the child has already been removed.

Yes, I do, and that situation is temporary. Just as Maria is temporarily staying with a charity called "Smile of the Child" the pair of them have an attorney. I don't know a thing about Greek law, or Greek child custody, but I assume they will get a trial date, make bail, etc, pay a fine, be sentenced to community service or something? and eventually some kind of permanent arrangements will be decided upon for Maria. I assume once DNA testing is back for the other children who were living in the home (the real ones, not the paper dolls) those real children that are a DNA match to this couple will be returned to them.

In my opinion it's unnecessarily cruel and disruptive to rip Maria from the people who are effectively her parents and siblings. You don't have to agree.

 

[greenpalm]

She never lived in that biological home. The supposed bio mom claimed she gave birth to her in Greece and couldn't take her home to Bulgaria.
As to not have running water and having filthy children, it might not be abuse in Bulgaria, but here in US I wouldn't surprised if CPS came in knocking if children were living under those conditions.

Well, since they are in Bulgaria that's completely irrelevant, but thanks for adding that.

We cannot hold parents in 3rd world countries to our standards. That's ridiculous. CPS only knocks on US doors.

 

[pieper4]

I think the issue here may come down to the lesser of the evils. Many European countries have notoriously poor/cruel/uncaring reputations when it comes to orphanages and social services. The latter seems particularly true for Romas. Greece has massive infrastructure and economic issues. If the only pictures we ever saw of this little one were akin to those seen of alleged Bio Roma Mom's other children, I suspect there wouldn't be near the hubbub about this case. But she's blonde and 'white' and the outcry was about the possibility of stolen white babies. Stolen/bartered Roma babies seem to have a lower 'value' in the public eye.

 

[jjenny]

Well, since they are in Bulgaria that's completely irrelevant, but thanks for adding that.

We cannot hold parents in 3rd world countries to our standards. That's ridiculous. CPS only knocks on US doors.

Well, pardon me. I live in US so I have US standards.

 

[Oblio]

JJenny, I think the hardest thing to wrap ones brain around is perspective. What we see as child trafficking to them is cultural norm/their form of adoption. If she is Roma, then she is a part of them. At the very least, she should be adopted by another Roma family. Ideally she should be placed with the only siblings she's known in her almost five years on this planet. If authorities find their bio parents suitable to have them, I see no reason why they shouldn't have her, either. Even if the way they adopted her equals trafficking in our eyes. I can't shake my suspicions that this whole entire case is being handled differently from any other (illegally)adopted Roma child case solely because of the color of her skin.

 

[jjenny]

Because, from all that we have read about so far, with the stigma attached to the Roma people, if she is biologically Roma, she likely would not be adopted by a non-Roma family. I have a feeling that the "mother" will be released from custody, as there was no abduction. I imagine the other charges will be applied only to the father.

If the girl is going to be shuffled around and placed in families or an orphanage that would mistreat her simply because she is Roma, (and that definitely happens), she would be better cared for where she originally was.

People in Europe adopt children of other races/ethnicity. Some even adopt African-American babies from US. I have no doubt that given a chance somebody will adopt M.

 

[greenpalm]

Well, pardon me. I live in US so I have US standards.

Well, I wish you the very best of luck out there in the real world.

 

[Tugela]

What a miserable looking bunch of people, I can't imagine they would send her to that if this woman does turn out to be her mother. That woman has no business making babies, she can barely look after herself let alone 10 kids.

I have to wonder though if those two smaller kids are actually the children of that older blonde woman/girl.

These people are lying so much its hard to tell what might or might not be true. I think a paternity test is the only way to go, but either way, Maria needs to be removed from that whole situation entirely. Her best interests are not their best interests.

I have never seen or met a gypsy before, this case has been quite the eye opener. That community seriously needs to get their act together because the PR they are getting from all of this is horrible.

 

[concernedmother]

This sort of thing seems to have been a problem for a while now, wondering if they are keeping eyes open for the boys too.
From 2006
bbm.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/18/world/europe/18iht-babies.3939121.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


The police say that babies are being sold — mainly in Athens, northern and central Greece and the island of Crete — for up to $33,000, with male blue- eyed infants fetching the highest prices. According to Bulgarian officials, most of the mothers are from Roma, or Gypsy, settlements in Bulgaria and are paid about $4,000 for relinquishing their infants."

This is so sad and whichever family gets Maria its going to be a sad life for her. Its hard to imagine babies being sold like cattle. I almost wish Id never clicked on this thread.

 

[Oblio]

What a miserable looking bunch of people, I can't imagine they would send her to that if this woman does turn out to be her mother. That woman has no business making babies, she can barely look after herself let alone 10 kids.

I have to wonder though if those two smaller kids are actually the children of that older blonde woman/girl.

These people are lying so much its hard to tell what might or might not be true. I think a paternity test is the only way to go, but either way, Maria needs to be removed from that whole situation entirely. Her best interests are not their best interests.

I have never seen or met a gypsy before, this case has been quite the eye opener. That community seriously needs to get their act together because the PR they are getting from all of this is horrible.

I keep seeing this mentioned in this thread and I feel the need to speak up.

Chances are, "that woman", has no reproductive rights. No right to say no to her partner, no access to birth control, no knowledge of natural family planning, and may even belong to a religion that doesn't allow birth control.

In most of the world, it's not so simple for women to just stop having kids.

 

[lisser]

Well, pardon me. I live in US so I have US standards.

I get that, I really do. I do hope she gets placed for legal adoption and a family that could pass US standards and provide her with a clean, caring, loving home comes forward to adopt her. The reality though, in the country she lives in, and the one she was likely born in, if she is indeed a Roma child, is that she would be deemed unadoptable by the majority of the population. If she were to be placed in an orphanage with the stigma of being an unadoptable Roma, she would be far worse off than she ever could have been otherwise. Some of he orphanages in some of the countries over there are worse than concentration camps.

Her best hope, if it turns out she is this woman's bio child, is that she not be returned to either, and would be adopted internationally. I honestly don't see that happening though. I hope I am wrong, but I can see the authorities "washing their hands" of her, and returning her to where she was. In that case, the lesser of two evils would appear to be the family she's been with for most of her life.

I really would love to see her get saved from that fate though.