GZ Case - Defense Perspective

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Why would the first punch matter?

You are not allowed to kill people because they punched you. You are, with only a few exceptions, allowed to kill someone if you can convice a jury that you believed you were in danger of being killed or suffering a critical injury and that no other reasonable options were available to you.

The question in this case is not so much who hit who first, but rather does Zimmerman's decision to pursue Trayvon negate his right to employ deadly force in any subsequent physical altercation.

In my opinion, etc.

This guy pursued someone who was unarmed (unless you consider a bag of radios as 'armed'). This guy had a knife and stabbed and killed the guy with the bag. He was found innocent via SYG in florida.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/27/2717572/miami-dade-issues-ruling-in-stand.html
 
Why would the first punch matter?

You are not allowed to kill people because they punched you. You are, with only a few exceptions, allowed to kill someone if you can convice a jury that you believed you were in danger of being killed or suffering a critical injury and that no other reasonable options were available to you.

The question in this case is not so much who hit who first, but rather does Zimmerman's decision to pursue Trayvon negate his right to employ deadly force in any subsequent physical altercation.

In my opinion, etc.

We have discussed this in great detail, and the case law shows that it does NOT negate his right to employ deadly force in any subsequent altercation. I would go back and find the case law, but someone else here probably has a quick link at their fingertips and can post it for you.
 
But you do know that GZ is charged with 2nd degree murder? So how is that a witch hunt? He's been arrested and charged. jmo

Not every defendant who is charged with a crime in this country is guilty of what they are charged with.
 
Zimmerman stated on the 911 tape that Trayvon had run from him. Further, we know from the location of the killing that Trayvon very likely did run, just as Zimmerman claimed. Finally, we know from the girlfriend on the phone that she had urged him to run. Trayvon, likely playing the cool guy, said he wouldn't run and would just walk quickly, but according to Zimmerman he ran.

If TM were frightened and had run home (which was nearby and not a great distance), he would not have crossed paths with GZ again. IMO, a case can be made that TM ran to get out of GZ's sight with the intent to turn the tables on him. After all, GZ's story is that he was returning to his car when TM surprised him with a physical attack.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
BBM


Just to be clear, re: the bold: That is not a proven fact. That is clearly your opinion, but it is not a proven fact.

I'm not sure what Chris is referring to but I took his post to mean the witness Gilbreath mentioned who saw two men running in the direction of where TM's body ended up. Since GZ never admitted TM chasing him, or GZ chasing TM, it would lead some of us to believe it was GZ chasing TM. For SYG it would not help GZ's case to say he chased TM to detain him. jmo
 
Thank you for clarifying. I originally read your statement to mean for TM to finish the job meaning to kill GZ.

Absoultely thats correct - As long as TM reasonably believed that such force was necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself. I have seen no evidence that leads me to believe that.

Must... resist...

On the other hand - the fact that TM had no injuries other than bruising to his knuckles, and GZ DID have multiple injuries, leads ME to believe that at the time the trigger was pulled, GZ reasonably believed the force was necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.

This assumes that Zimmerman's decision to pursue does not negate his right to then claim self-defense. That's what the jury is going to have to decide.
 
But you do know that GZ is charged with 2nd degree murder? So how is that a witch hunt? He's been arrested and charged. jmo

This case was over-charged after a special prosecutor was brought in because the local authorities felt they didn't have enough evidence to bring even manslaughter charges. Add in the gross misinformation (that borders on fabrication) and, IMO, it's been a witch hunt from the moment the MSM put out those two photos that did not resemble either TM or GZ and began reporting Crump's stories as undisputed fact.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
If TM were frightened and had run home (which was nearby and not a great distance), he would not have crossed paths with GZ again. IMO, a case can be made that TM ran to get out of GZ's sight with the intent to turn the tables on him. After all, GZ's story is that he was returning to his car when TM surprised him with a physical attack.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

According to Papa's timeline GZ had plenty of time to get to the next street, walking, and back to his car before he ended his call, I believe. I also believe he doubled back and TM thought GZ had returned to his car and that is why he told his gf, "He found me". Does not sound like someone who was waiting to pounce on GZ. And if he were planning on doing so he would have confronted him on the way to the next street while GZ's back was to him not on the way back? GZ was still on the phone with LE when he claimed this all happened. Where the body was found is yards away from where GZ claims to have been attacked by TM.

I really do not think TM was doing anything other than trying to get home without this strange guy following him. jmo
 
Must... resist...



This assumes that Zimmerman's decision to pursue does not negate his right to then claim self-defense. That's what the jury is going to have to decide.

BBM.

Keep in mind that GZ claims he was not pursuing TM when he was attacked. He was heading back to his car.
 
But you do know that GZ is charged with 2nd degree murder? So how is that a witch hunt? He's been arrested and charged. jmo

He was arrested and charged AFTER the witch hunt began. That's the whole point of a successful witch hunt. jmo
 
According to Papa's timeline GZ had plenty of time to get to the next street, walking, and back to his car before he ended his call, I believe. I also believe he doubled back and TM thought GZ had returned to his car and that is why he told his gf, "He found me". Does not sound like someone who was waiting to pounce on GZ. And if he were planning on doing so he would have confronted him on the way to the next street while GZ's back was to him not on the way back? GZ was still on the phone with LE when he claimed this all happened. Where the body was found is yards away from where GZ claims to have been attacked by TM.

I really do not think TM was doing anything other than trying to get home without this strange guy following him. jmo

I do not recall the girlfriend stating Mr. Martin said "he found me." I do recall that the girlfriend made the statement that "the strange man was back" which says nothing about how the "strange man" got back. As far as we, including the girlfriend, know Mr. Martin could have approached Mr. Zimmerman.
 
According to Papa's timeline GZ had plenty of time to get to the next street, walking, and back to his car before he ended his call, I believe. I also believe he doubled back and TM thought GZ had returned to his car and that is why he told his gf, "He found me". Does not sound like someone who was waiting to pounce on GZ. And if he were planning on doing so he would have confronted him on the way to the next street while GZ's back was to him not on the way back? GZ was still on the phone with LE when he claimed this all happened. Where the body was found is yards away from where GZ claims to have been attacked by TM.

I really do not think TM was doing anything other than trying to get home without this strange guy following him. jmo


LambChop, Do you have a link to where TM told the GF "He found me"? That is news to me.
 
According to Papa's timeline GZ had plenty of time to get to the next street, walking, and back to his car before he ended his call, I believe. I also believe he doubled back and TM thought GZ had returned to his car and that is why he told his gf, "He found me". Does not sound like someone who was waiting to pounce on GZ. And if he were planning on doing so he would have confronted him on the way to the next street while GZ's back was to him not on the way back? GZ was still on the phone with LE when he claimed this all happened. Where the body was found is yards away from where GZ claims to have been attacked by TM.

I really do not think TM was doing anything other than trying to get home without this strange guy following him. jmo

TM had plenty of time to run home. GZ had plenty of time to walk to the next street over. But none of us know what either one actually did. So we come back to GZ saying he had stopped following TM, and he was looking for an address and returning to his car. For this reason, I speculate that the only "evidence" the prosecution has is the gf's "ear" testimony. And I agree with those WSers who believe a good defense attorney will tear her story apart on cross.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
What's not the law?

If, as so many seem to be claiming, Mr Zimmerman had the right to defend himself and "stand his ground" then Trayvon had that right as well. Two critical differences here however. The first is that Trayvon attempted to flee, he tried to avoid the conflict. Zimmerman did not. The second is that some do not believe that Trayvon had ANY rights here at all, including the right to be left alone.

The words 'stand your ground' have an absolute meaning in the english language. They mean, literally, to remain where you are. This, obviously, is something Zimmerman did not do. He advanced. His ground was somewhere a hundred yards behind him. He made the choice to leave it.

As I said, the sad part in all this is that Trayvon was unsuccessful in his efforts at self defense. Unfortunately he didn't have a gun or knife with which to defend himself from the advancing armed menace. He only had his hands, and that wasn't enough.

My question would be this... had Trayvon succeeded in defending himself, had he succeeded in 'standing his ground,' if he somehow pulled off the miracle and killed Zimmerman, would those defending Zimmerman and "stand your ground' today be as adamant in their support for Trayvon? The answer appears to be no.

Chris, it sounds to me as if people believe that Trayvon had no rights and no option but to surrender to GZ; no matter what GZ and anyone who may have assisted GZ did, said or intimated (IMO GZ is just the type to flash the semi-automatic pistol hidden under the jacket.)

It seems some people believe that even if GZ forced TM up against a house in the breezeway, after cornering him in a dark area, and even man handled him that TM could not and was not supposed to defend himself. It is getting so ridiculous.

THE KID WAS UNARMED!
 
TM had plenty of time to run home. GZ had plenty of time to walk to the next street over. But none of us know what either one actually did. So we come back to GZ saying he had stopped following TM, and he was looking for an address and returning to his car. For this reason, I speculate that the only "evidence" the prosecution has is the gf's "ear" testimony. And I agree with those WSers who believe a good defense attorney will tear her story apart on cross.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Just tossing in my opinion (because it was the first account that I read, actually) - I believe Mr. Zimmerman stopped at the next street over and did not start retreating to his vehicle until after he hung up with the 911 dispatcher. This would explain the mysterious "unaccounted for" time in various timelines also.
 
This case was over-charged after a special prosecutor was brought in because the local authorities felt they didn't have enough evidence to bring even manslaughter charges. Add in the gross misinformation (that borders on fabrication) and, IMO, it's been a witch hunt from the moment the MSM put out those two photos that did not resemble either TM or GZ and began reporting Crump's stories as undisputed fact.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Not sure why anyone would use the term witch hunt when an legal investigation was done and the results were 2nd degree murder changes brought against the defendant in this case. Certainly AC was not listings to rumors about this case and relied on the evidence as it was presented to her from her investigators solely. I'm pretty sure AC did not check with MSM before bringing her charges against GZ. jmo

Witch Hunt: An investigation carried out ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but actually used to harass and undermine those with differing views.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/witch-hunt
 
Chris, it sounds to me as if people believe that Trayvon had no rights and no option but to surrender to GZ; no matter what GZ and anyone who may have assisted GZ did, said or intimated (IMO GZ is just the type to flash the semi-automatic pistol hidden under the jacket.)

It seems some people believe that even if GZ forced TM up against a house in the breezeway, after cornering him in a dark area, and even man handled him that TM could not and was not supposed to defend himself. It is getting so ridiculous.

THE KID WAS UNARMED!

As per the Florida Stand Your Ground statute, Mr. Martin's duty WAS to retreat unless he felt a credible threat of serious bodily harm or death. Someone following you isn't a credible threat of either, if it were you'd think it would be illegal to follow someone.
 
Just tossing in my opinion (because it was the first account that I read, actually) - I believe Mr. Zimmerman stopped at the next street over and did not start retreating to his vehicle until after he hung up with the 911 dispatcher. This would explain the mysterious "unaccounted for" time in various timelines also.

Why would he lie to LE? He told them he had no address. And, you can hear him walking while he is talking. Then we would have to ask the question....he was clearly looking for TM and TM was not on Retreat View so why would he continue to talk to LE and stand in the rain at Retreat when he was asked by LE to meet the patrol officer at his vehicle???? jmo
 
Not sure why anyone would use the term witch hunt when an legal investigation was done and the results were 2nd degree murder changes brought against the defendant in this case. Certainly AC was not listings to rumors about this case and relied on the evidence as it was presented to her from her investigators solely. I'm pretty sure AC did not check with MSM before bringing her charges against GZ. jmo

Witch Hunt: An investigation carried out ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but actually used to harass and undermine those with differing views.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/witch-hunt

That is your opinion. Mine is that it's a political and/or public pressure charge. If she had been presented this case with no pressure from the public, and no political pressure, I believe she would not be filing charges.
 
According to Papa's timeline GZ had plenty of time to get to the next street, walking, and back to his car before he ended his call, I believe. I also believe he doubled back and TM thought GZ had returned to his car and that is why he told his gf, "He found me". Does not sound like someone who was waiting to pounce on GZ. And if he were planning on doing so he would have confronted him on the way to the next street while GZ's back was to him not on the way back? GZ was still on the phone with LE when he claimed this all happened. Where the body was found is yards away from where GZ claims to have been attacked by TM.

I really do not think TM was doing anything other than trying to get home without this strange guy following him. jmo

bbm I don't recall this, do you have a link that she said that? tia
 
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