GZ Case - Defense Perspective

[wowitsdark]

My son had glue instead of stitches when he fell down an escalator last year and busted his forehead up. You could see the glue and the blood/redness underneath it. Besides that, for the first day or so it had to be covered and taped with gauze...:twocents:

While I don't doubt your story, it is merely anecdotal. My own child had his hand 'stitched' with glue by an uncle with EMT training (we were in the mountains and it wasn't very handy to go in for a cut that might or might not need stitches), and it was barely visible. And he wore no gauze.

My daughter had a head injury after a run-in with a concrete sidewalk. Epidural hematoma. Skull fracture. Concussion. Brain surgery. But externally, there wasn't a scratch on her, and she never lost consciousness.

My point is that simply because we know of stories that prove something other than assertion made here could have happened, that does not mean that those stories represent the only possibility.

The question isn't whether a glued injury *might* show up. It's whether it might *not* show up on a grainy photo. Just because it possibly would does not mean that it did.

 

[HiHater]

While I don't doubt your story, it is merely anecdotal. My own child had his hand 'stitched' with glue by an uncle with EMT training (we were in the mountains and it wasn't very handy to go in for a cut that might or might not need stitches), and it was barely visible. And he wore no gauze.

My daughter had a head injury after a run-in with a concrete sidewalk. Epidural hematoma. Skull fracture. Concussion. Brain surgery. But externally, there wasn't a scratch on her, and she never lost consciousness.

My point is that simply because we know of stories that prove something other than assertion made here could have happened, that does not mean that those stories represent the only possibility.

The question isn't whether a glued injury *might* show up. It's whether it might *not* show up on a grainy photo. Just because it possibly would does not mean that it did.

I understand what you're saying, but you backed up your own assertion with more anecdotal evidence? ETA: And I was responding to YOU originally saying that the glue would likely NOT be visible.

 

[wowitsdark]

I understand what you're saying, but you backed up your own assertion with more anecdotal evidence? ETA: And I was responding to YOU originally saying that the glue would likely NOT be visible.

Yes - just driving home the point about the anecdotal.

Regardless... the possibility of the glue is something that I assume will come out in trial. Surely the EMT on the scene will testify to what treatments he applied, if any.

 

[katydid23]

Corey has tried hundreds of murder cases in her career, including many involving Florida's "stand your ground" self-defense law. Just two months ago, Stone says Corey's office made the decision not to charge Artur Veshti, who shot and killed Stone's client, Paulin Gavoci, after deciding Veshti acted in response to reasonable fear for his life.

Earlier this year, Stone says he was defending a woman charged with slashing a man she said attacked her, and Corey proceeded with charges until the judge dismissed the case finding that the woman had acted in self-defense.

I think you read that wrong. He's talking about 2 different cases.

I know it was two different cases. Sorry, I thought you were referring to the second one, when you said she dropped the charges.

 

[beach]

Yes, a lot of OFF TOPIC posts were removed.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7922835#post7922835"]I generated a topical thread here.[/ame]

 

[AJ Noiter]

It does seem odd

Are security cameras always stationary, or are there any types that are motion-sensitive?

Here're pics of the two southern facing cam poles, courtesy of Google Earth. The pole facing north is too distant to get a good pic of it. From the images I'd say they're stationary.

 

[mikeysmommom]

IMO With seeing GZ does have medical reports stating 2 black eyes,broken nose,back injury and head wounds sure does seem like GZ was telling the truth.IMO TM having cut knuckles sure seems like he was the attacker.If GZ attached him where are his bruises,black eyes,head wound?Only damaged area on TM was his knuckles and the bullet wound.IMO This will help GZ get this dismissed under the SYG Law.If GZ attached TM first where are his wounds from being hit?GZ's hands were fine no wounds that would show he did not hit or attack TM.Eye witnesses who said TM was on top of GZ hitting him also follow what GZ said happened.Seems like the evidence so far is going to help GZ and hurt the prosecutions case.

 

[Chris_Texas]

IMO With seeing GZ does have medical reports stating 2 black eyes,broken nose,back injury and head wounds sure does seem like GZ was telling the truth.IMO TM having cut knuckles sure seems like he was the attacker.If GZ attached him where are his bruises,black eyes,head wound?Only damaged area on TM was his knuckles and the bullet wound.IMO This will help GZ get this dismissed under the SYG Law.If GZ attached TM first where are his wounds from being hit?GZ's hands were fine no wounds that would show he did not hit or attack TM.Eye witnesses who said TM was on top of GZ hitting him also follow what GZ said happened.Seems like the evidence so far is going to help GZ and hurt the prosecutions case.

I guess we'll have to see what evidence the prosecution has managed to dig up. It would have been nice if the police had done a thorough job from the beginning, but there you go.

The other thing to consider is this: Zimmerman pursued a fleeing kid, and in so doing he provoked whatever conflict eventually occured. If Trayvon did manage to get a few hits in of his own, good for him. In my opinion, the only tragedy there is that he didn't manage to finish the job before Zimmerman gunned him down. In my opinion.

 

[lisalei321]

Seems to me, that TM was doing nothing but defending himself from a gun toting wanna be, who had no business being any where near TM.


JMO

 

[gxm]

IMO With seeing GZ does have medical reports stating 2 black eyes,broken nose,back injury and head wounds sure does seem like GZ was telling the truth.IMO TM having cut knuckles sure seems like he was the attacker.If GZ attached him where are his bruises,black eyes,head wound?Only damaged area on TM was his knuckles and the bullet wound.IMO This will help GZ get this dismissed under the SYG Law.If GZ attached TM first where are his wounds from being hit?GZ's hands were fine no wounds that would show he did not hit or attack TM.Eye witnesses who said TM was on top of GZ hitting him also follow what GZ said happened.Seems like the evidence so far is going to help GZ and hurt the prosecutions case.

I agree. Now we can understand why SPD did not press charges. And, the over charge is explained, AC's trying to bully GZ into a plea deal. If prosecution is pinning its case on inconsistent statements from GZ then, IMO, they are in a world of trouble because all MOM has to do is blame the head injury for any inconsistencies.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

OT: George Zimmerman broke WS! I couldn't get on last night. Finally just gave up and went to bed.

 

[gxm]

Seems to me, that TM was doing nothing but defending himself from a gun toting wanna be, who had no business being any where near TM.


JMO

I'm not sure if he was defending himself or was just annoyed by GZ keeping an eye on him. Regardless, if TM threw the first punch, then he is the one who escalated the situation into violence. Not GZ. GZ was not breaking any laws at that point.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[cityslick]

I guess we'll have to see what evidence the prosecution has managed to dig up. It would have been nice if the police had done a thorough job from the beginning, but there you go.

The other thing to consider is this: Zimmerman pursued a fleeing kid, and in so doing he provoked whatever conflict eventually occured. If Trayvon did manage to get a few hits in of his own, good for him. In my opinion, the only tragedy there is that he didn't manage to finish the job before Zimmerman gunned him down. In my opinion.

That is not the law though. It's also up for debate as to how much GZ 'pursued' TM.

 

[gxm]

I have said from the start that I'm more interested in what GZ looked like the next day. If he's anything like me, his bruises don't start to "bloom" till later. Now I have the answer. IMO, he was clearly attacked and that part of the puzzle has been put into place. With the medical record and TM's bruised knuckles, I think the defense has substantial evidence to build their case on. Of course, that's if this leaked information is accurate.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[lisalei321]

I'm not sure if he was defending himself or was just annoyed by GZ keeping an eye on him. Regardless, if TM threw the first punch, then he is the one who escalated the situation into violence. Not GZ. GZ was not breaking any laws at that point.
JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I believe that the situation escalated when GZ got out of his truck with a gun.

Following someone may not be "illegal", but if you get into a confrontation while you're doing it, well then, you might end up getting your butt kicked (unless you've got a gun :banghead: )

 

[cityslick]

I said from the beginning that the state needs to prove how GZ attacked TM. Not followed TM or asked TM a question, but physically attacked TM. Because past precedent in similar cases has favored the defendant if they are attacked or the confrontation is started by the victim.

 

[cityslick]

I believe that the situation escalated when GZ got out of his truck with a gun.

Following someone may not be "illegal", but if you get into a confrontation while you're doing it, well then, you might end up getting your butt kicked (unless you've got a gun :banghead: )

What human being starts a fight with someone holding a gun at them?

Answer: No one. TM wouldn't had gotten into a fight with GZ if he knew he had a gun IMO.

 

[wowitsdark]

I'm not sure if he was defending himself or was just annoyed by GZ keeping an eye on him. Regardless, if TM threw the first punch, then he is the one who escalated the situation into violence. Not GZ. GZ was not breaking any laws at that point.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I agree. If watching - or even following someone for a few blocks - was considered provocation worthy of an altercation, we would see a lot more police reports about this.

Anyone entering the complex would have passed by signs saying they had a neighborhood watch program, therefore, TM perhaps should have known that the neighborhood was patrolled by non-uniformed citizens. There is no way to know, however, if TM ever actually saw the signs.

The girlfriend's report, I believe, was that TM spoke to GZ first in asking him why he was following him. Even at that point in their exchanges, I don't believe provocation existed.

If TM came back to have an encounter with GZ it would have been because he found GZ to be suspicious because of his (GZ's) behavior.

 

[suzihawk]

I guess we'll have to see what evidence the prosecution has managed to dig up. It would have been nice if the police had done a thorough job from the beginning, but there you go.

The other thing to consider is this: Zimmerman pursued a fleeing kid, and in so doing he provoked whatever conflict eventually occured. If Trayvon did manage to get a few hits in of his own, good for him. In my opinion, the only tragedy there is that he didn't manage to finish the job before Zimmerman gunned him down. In my opinion.

ITA, Chris. Further, I believe GZ exposed or brandished his gun and grabbed hold of Trayvon in an effort to detain him and Trayvon was fighting for his very life. Perhaps he got the wounds on his hands from wrestling with the gun. But even if he pummeled GZ, he was justified as he was standing HIS ground out of fear for his life from this stranger who pursued and confronted him with a weapon.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Here're pics of the two southern facing cam poles, courtesy of Google Earth. The pole facing north is too distant to get a good pic of it. From the images I'd say they're stationary.

Great catch AJ.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I agree. If watching - or even following someone for a few blocks - was considered provocation worthy of an altercation, we would see a lot more police reports about this.

Anyone entering the complex would have passed by signs saying they had a neighborhood watch program, therefore, TM perhaps should have known that the neighborhood was patrolled by non-uniformed citizens. There is no way to know, however, if TM ever actually saw the signs.

The girlfriend's report, I believe, was that TM spoke to GZ first in asking him why he was following him. Even at that point in their exchanges, I don't believe provocation existed.

If TM came back to have an encounter with GZ it would have been because he found GZ to be suspicious because of his (GZ's) behavior.

BBM

Why would TM think George was with a neighborhood watch program when he walks right by him and George says nothing to him but just stares at him. How creepy would that be? imo