Halyna Hutchins Shot With Prop Gun - Alec Baldwin indicted & Hannah Gutierrez-Reed charged, 2021 #6

[Cryptic]

I don't see it as being sloppy. As long as you check each round before you put it in the gun it doesn't matter where you keep them.

True. But... certain storage "techniques" can greatly increase the chances of an error.

Decades ago, I had a law enforcement position. Our agency trained with live and blank rounds. As this was before ubber safety everything, we shot blank rounds very much towards, but not truly "at" each other in training.

The range masters and instructors had exacting and repetitive procedures for storing, issuing, and using this blank ammunition to ensure that blank and live ammunition were not mixed up.

Using the slang of the day, they were down right "anal". But.... we never had an accident. Nor, was I ever concerned about what was being shot towards me.

Not doing an unnecessary task, imo, does not equate to sloppy procedures.

I agree. But.... not performing unnecessary tasks can create environments where errors are more likely to occur.

The military prioritizes certain cleanings. At the same time, we routinely cleaned alot of gear at times when it did not truly need cleaning.

I later realized that part of the reason for needless cleanings is that little things were noticed and corrected before they became big things. With out a doubt, this allowed for some accidents to be avoided.

 

[10ofRods]

Overall, JMO it appears the armourer was careless and negligent in her job. She wasn’t paying attention nor keeping track of her equipment and supplies.

IMO, she wasn't allowed to do her job. The other armorer they interviewed said he would need to be hired full time plus have two full time assistants, as this was a very gun heavy film.

Hannah was hired to be armorer, and then part time armorer (which is against the industry standard, IMO) and then made part time props person.

She was supposed to be using her phone for remote viewing of the set, but on the day of the Halyna's death, the crew that operating the app for that walked off set in protest about safety.

It appears to me that someone much higher up than Hannah was careless and negligent. Specifically, who ever was the film runner (usually, one thinks of the Director as being in charge, which is what I learned in film school). If it is not the Director, then it has to be one of the producers (or all of them, IMO).

It was an oddly structured film, in any case, and Hannah had no control over the conditions of her employment.

IMO.

 

[PrairieWind]

To be fair, though, if the gun was only ever used for firing blanks there would be little reason to clean it over and above making sure it looked externally presentable.

The firearms were rented. So it would be interesting to know what condition they were in when HGR received them. I would assume (maybe not a good idea) that the rental company would have them in good condition and clean and expect them back in the same condition.

 

[10ofRods]

I find it so odd that gun ownership is regulated by at least some regulations, but it's okay to rent out a gun.

And the rental gun can apparently be used by anyone that the renter wishes to hand it to.

 

[PrairieWind]

I don't see it as being sloppy. As long as you check each round before you put it in the gun it doesn't matter where you keep them.

I don't see how it explains how live ammo got in the gun. Live ammo should have been no where near the set. That, however, doesn't mean that you shouldn't check what's in the gun and it doesn't absolve the shooter of their actions.

I agree to large degree, but it does raise some questions for me about her procedures. I would think a professional armor on a set would load and unload, prepare the firearms in one place. That is the only place the firearm is loaded and unloaded. Now, the reference to rounds in her pocket, as far I have seen, isn't well explained or at least not with much context from what I saw. But if she is carrying rounds in her pocket and loading/unloading out on the set, that is much less controlled/regimented process. It may not really have much to do with the accident, but it seems a little less controlled.

 

[ch_13]

IMO, she wasn't allowed to do her job. The other armorer they interviewed said he would need to be hired full time plus have two full time assistants, as this was a very gun heavy film.

Hannah was hired to be armorer, and then part time armorer (which is against the industry standard, IMO) and then made part time props person.

She was supposed to be using her phone for remote viewing of the set, but on the day of the Halyna's death, the crew that operating the app for that walked off set in protest about safety.

It appears to me that someone much higher up than Hannah was careless and negligent. Specifically, who ever was the film runner (usually, one thinks of the Director as being in charge, which is what I learned in film school). If it is not the Director, then it has to be one of the producers (or all of them, IMO).

It was an oddly structured film, in any case, and Hannah had no control over the conditions of her employment.

IMO.

I can't quite absolve HGR of responsibility. The fact that she loaded live ammunition into a prop gun still astounds me. It's like those internet memes that go "You had one job"!

Still, in general I agree with you. It's clear that the filmmakers were primarily interested in checking a box. They needed an armorer for legal and insurance reasons and they didn't much care about their knowledge, experience or competence. Safety was never a consideration. I assume it was the line producer who made the decision to hire her. The same person also berated Hannah during the production for spending too much time on her armorer duties and not enough assisting the props master.

And even the line producer was almost certainly acting on directives from the executive producers and money men to keep the budget down. It's a shame that none of them will see the inside of a courtroom. (If Baldwin is indicted it will likely be for his his role in pulling the trigger, and only tangentially for anything he did as producer.)

 

[Cryptic]

I agree to large degree, but it does raise some questions for me about her procedures. I would think a professional armor on a set would load and unload, prepare the firearms in one place. That is the only place the firearm is loaded and unloaded.

The insider camera man that I met told me that the following is the norm of good directors:

- Fire arm is issued and loaded in front of the actor. The actor verifies what it contains. If the actor is personally averse to handling weapons (fairly common), they are assigned a "shooting partner" for reverifications.

- Actors are not issued working weapons unless the scene calls for it. A rubber gun is still a weapon. In this case, the actor would re-verify that he / she was issued a rubber gun.

- Rubber guns and functional guns loaded with blanks or dummies are given different colored to signify what they are loaded with. Bands are invisible to cameras.

- Guns with live ammunition are "black guns" (no colored bands). The presence of a "black gun(s)" on the set is clearly announced. Black guns are only used for live ammunition. Guns used for blanks or dummies cannot later be used for live ammunition (avoid confusion by bands not being removed etc).

- Shooting live ammunition is done by: Armorer loads the weapon with one live round. Round is then fired. Armorer collects the cartridge. Armorer then reloads the weapon with one round. Weapon is fired. Cartridge picked up. Movie magic then blends it together.

Ubber high budget films can then do things that others cannot:

Live fire machine gun scenes are very rare. Such scenes on Saving Private Ryan would take him half a day to film. Functional German WWII pistols with quirky safety features? Spielburg had a separate armorer just for them.

 

[PrairieWind]

It is interesting that real, functional firearms are used in movies/tv. It certainly isn't necessary anymore.

 

[Cryptic]

It is interesting that real, functional firearms are used in movies/tv. It certainly isn't necessary anymore.

ooops I forgot to add, the camera crewman also told me that hi end airsoft (things can cost as much as the real weapon) are also used on sets. Airsofts can be pointed and shot at people- but are issued like a weapon.

I think the use of functional weapons is due to the wide range of effects that a director can want- well, with the right budget.

He also told me is that well run sets dont even issue airsoft pistols to actors unless the scene requires it. Rather, actors always have the "least" amount of weapon for the scene. For example:

- If the detective is chasing the bad guy with a pistol in his hand, but not firing it? Then he has a rubber pistol.
- The next action calls for firing at the bad guy? The rubber gun is taken up and he is issued an airsoft.
- The chase starts again with out firing? No more airsoft and its back to the re-issued rubber gun.

 

[DI_Isokawa]

The walls are closing in ..,

Alec Baldwin & ‘Rust’ Producers Ordered To Reveal Actor’s Full Role On Fatal Film; Criminal Charges Refiling Decision Could Come Soon, Prosecutor Says – Update

A New Mexico judge has ordered prosecutors to turn over agreements with Alec Baldwin that could be relevant to armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed's defense

deadline.com

 

[Betty P]

The walls are closing in ..,

Alec Baldwin & ‘Rust’ Producers Ordered To Reveal Actor’s Full Role On Fatal Film; Criminal Charges Refiling Decision Could Come Soon, Prosecutor Says – Update

A New Mexico judge has ordered prosecutors to turn over agreements with Alec Baldwin that could be relevant to armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed's defense

deadline.com

What is this hearing about? I thought the only person they brought charges against was the armorer? Is this hearing related to Hannah's upcoming trial? Very confusing.

Right, they're saying this hearing is supposedly about Hannah's trial

Livestreamed, today’s session in front of District Judge Mary Marlowe Sommer, was technically a part of the special prosecutor’s case against Rust armorer Hannah Gutierre

This is bizarre, but transparent. She's hijacking a hearing for Hannah to attack the producers when their attorneys aren't there to offer rebuttal. I don't think its going to work the way she thinks it is.

Rust Movie Productions LLC argued against turning over the documents, calling the state’s subpoena, “burdensome”, that charges have been dismissed and the records were not relevant in the case against Gutierrez-Reed.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It is interesting that real, functional firearms are used in movies/tv. It certainly isn't necessary anymore.

It is in some cases - although given modern technology and extremely good replicas it's a much reduced need.

 

[ch_13]

dbm.

 

[sds71]

Special prosecutors said Tuesday they are seeking to recharge actor Alec Baldwin with involuntary manslaughter in a 2021 fatal shooting on a movie set in New Mexico.

New Mexico-based prosecutors Kari Morrissey and Jason Lewis said they’ll present evidence grand jury within the next two months, noting that “additional facts” have come to light in the October 2021 fatal shooting on the set of western movie on the outskirts of Santa Fe.

Prosecutors seeking to recharge Alec Baldwin in fatal shooting on set of Western movie 'Rust'

Special prosecutors are seeking to recharge actor Alec Baldwin in the fatal shooting of a cinematographer on a Western movie set in New Mexico in 2021

abcnews.go.com

 

[Betty P]

Special prosecutors said Tuesday they are seeking to recharge actor Alec Baldwin with involuntary manslaughter in a 2021 fatal shooting on a movie set in New Mexico.

New Mexico-based prosecutors Kari Morrissey and Jason Lewis said they’ll present evidence grand jury within the next two months, noting that “additional facts” have come to light in the October 2021 fatal shooting on the set of western movie on the outskirts of Santa Fe.

Prosecutors seeking to recharge Alec Baldwin in fatal shooting on set of Western movie 'Rust'

Special prosecutors are seeking to recharge actor Alec Baldwin in the fatal shooting of a cinematographer on a Western movie set in New Mexico in 2021

abcnews.go.com

From the link:

“It is unfortunate that a terrible tragedy has been turned into this misguided prosecution. We will answer any charges in court,” Baldwin’s attorneys Luke Nikas and Alex Spiro said in an email.

I suppose the prosecutors think they can work around the special prosecutor's ruling by getting a Grand Jury to bring charges. It was a special prosecutor who denied their bid to bring manslaughter charges last time. The gun used by Baldwin was shown to be a broken down piece of junk. An FBI agent destroyed the trigger mechanism.

The tragic incident was preserved on video and still photos. Baldwin's attorneys proved that the prosecutors can't charge him with breaking a law that wasn't on the books when the accidental shooting took place. The assistant director already pleaded "no contest" to unsafe handling of a firearm.

Is there an election coming up down there?

 

[Cool Cats]

From the link:



I suppose the prosecutors think they can work around the special prosecutor's ruling by getting a Grand Jury to bring charges. It was a special prosecutor who denied their bid to bring manslaughter charges last time. The gun used by Baldwin was shown to be a broken down piece of junk. An FBI agent destroyed the trigger mechanism.

The tragic incident was preserved on video and still photos. Baldwin's attorneys proved that the prosecutors can't charge him with breaking a law that wasn't on the books when the accidental shooting took place. The assistant director already pleaded "no contest" to unsafe handling of a firearm.

Is there an election coming up down there?

The .45-caliber revolver was made by an Italian company that specializes in 19th century reproductions.

Not even an original gun.

An earlier FBI report on the agency’s analysis of the gun found that, as is common with firearms of that design, it could go off without pulling the trigger if force was applied to an uncocked hammer — such as by dropping the weapon.

The only way the testers could get it to fire was by striking the gun with a mallet while the hammer was down and resting on the cartridge, or by pulling the trigger while it was fully cocked. The gun eventually broke during testing.

 

[GatorFL]

The .45-caliber revolver was made by an Italian company that specializes in 19th century reproductions.

Not even an original gun.

An earlier FBI report on the agency’s analysis of the gun found that, as is common with firearms of that design, it could go off without pulling the trigger if force was applied to an uncocked hammer — such as by dropping the weapon.

The only way the testers could get it to fire was by striking the gun with a mallet while the hammer was down and resting on the cartridge, or by pulling the trigger while it was fully cocked. The gun eventually broke during testing.

Reproduction guns are pretty common. Thousands are made every year. To my knowledge most .45's and AR-15's are in fact repros produced by other companies and not the manufacturer who developed them.

BBM. Please provide a source for this claim. I looked and I could not find anything to corroborate what you said. I did find this from the original gun testing: "The gun used in the fatal shooting on the "Rust" movie set could not have been fired without pulling the trigger, according to an FBI forensic report obtained Friday by ABC News."

What forensic testing reveals about revolver in on-set 'Rust' shooting

The FBI conducted accidental discharge testing on the firearm used in the shooting.

abcnews.go.com

I think it is feasible the State could bring charges with new information, which is what they are claiming to have found:

"Special prosecutors in April initially dismissed an involuntary manslaughter charge against Baldwin, saying at the time that they were informed the gun might have been modified before the shooting and malfunctioned. They later pivoted and began weighing whether to refile a charge against Baldwin after receiving a new analysis of the gun.
https://www.4029tv.com/article/alec-baldwin-charged-involuntary-manslaughter-rust/42724024
The gun analysis from experts in ballistics and forensic testing based in Arizona and New Mexico relied on replacement parts to reassemble the gun fired by Baldwin — after parts of the pistol were broken during earlier testing by the FBI. The report examined the gun and markings it left on a spent cartridge to conclude that the trigger had to have been pulled or depressed.

The analysis led by Lucien Haag of Forensic Science Services in Arizona stated that although Baldwin repeatedly denies pulling the trigger, “given the tests, findings and observations reported here, the trigger had to be pulled or depressed sufficiently to release the fully cocked or retracted hammer of the evidence revolver.”"

Prosecutors seeking to recharge actor Alec Baldwin in fatal shooting on movie set

New Mexico-based prosecutors said they’ll present evidence grand jury within the next two months, noting that “additional facts” have come to light in the October 2021 fatal shooting on the set of western movie.

www.4029tv.com

 

[Cool Cats]

Reproduction guns are pretty common. Thousands are made every year. To my knowledge most .45's and AR-15's are in fact repros produced by other companies and not the manufacturer who developed them.

BBM. Please provide a source for this claim. I looked and I could not find anything to corroborate what you said. I did find this from the original gun testing: "The gun used in the fatal shooting on the "Rust" movie set could not have been fired without pulling the trigger, according to an FBI forensic report obtained Friday by ABC News."

What forensic testing reveals about revolver in on-set 'Rust' shooting

The FBI conducted accidental discharge testing on the firearm used in the shooting.

abcnews.go.com

I think it is feasible the State could bring charges with new information, which is what they are claiming to have found:

"Special prosecutors in April initially dismissed an involuntary manslaughter charge against Baldwin, saying at the time that they were informed the gun might have been modified before the shooting and malfunctioned. They later pivoted and began weighing whether to refile a charge against Baldwin after receiving a new analysis of the gun.
Alec Baldwin formally charged with involuntary manslaughter in 'Rust' shooting
The gun analysis from experts in ballistics and forensic testing based in Arizona and New Mexico relied on replacement parts to reassemble the gun fired by Baldwin — after parts of the pistol were broken during earlier testing by the FBI. The report examined the gun and markings it left on a spent cartridge to conclude that the trigger had to have been pulled or depressed.

The analysis led by Lucien Haag of Forensic Science Services in Arizona stated that although Baldwin repeatedly denies pulling the trigger, “given the tests, findings and observations reported here, the trigger had to be pulled or depressed sufficiently to release the fully cocked or retracted hammer of the evidence revolver.”"

Prosecutors seeking to recharge actor Alec Baldwin in fatal shooting on movie set

New Mexico-based prosecutors said they’ll present evidence grand jury within the next two months, noting that “additional facts” have come to light in the October 2021 fatal shooting on the set of western movie.

www.4029tv.com

Your Quote:

"BBM. Please provide a source for this claim."

"An earlier FBI report on the agency’s analysis of the gun found that, as is common with firearms of that design, it could go off without pulling the trigger if force was applied to an uncocked hammer — such as by dropping the weapon."

"The only way the testers could get it to fire was by striking the gun with a mallet while the hammer was down and resting on the cartridge, or by pulling the trigger while it was fully cocked. The gun eventually broke during testing."

Here is the source for this claim:

Prosecutors seeking to recharge Alec Baldwin in fatal shooting on set of Western movie 'Rust'

Special prosecutors are seeking to recharge actor Alec Baldwin in the fatal shooting of a cinematographer on a Western movie set in New Mexico in 2021

abcnews.go.com

 

[GatorFL]

Your Quote:

"BBM. Please provide a source for this claim."

"An earlier FBI report on the agency’s analysis of the gun found that, as is common with firearms of that design, it could go off without pulling the trigger if force was applied to an uncocked hammer — such as by dropping the weapon."

"The only way the testers could get it to fire was by striking the gun with a mallet while the hammer was down and resting on the cartridge, or by pulling the trigger while it was fully cocked. The gun eventually broke during testing."

Here is the source for this claim:

Prosecutors seeking to recharge Alec Baldwin in fatal shooting on set of Western movie 'Rust'

Special prosecutors are seeking to recharge actor Alec Baldwin in the fatal shooting of a cinematographer on a Western movie set in New Mexico in 2021

abcnews.go.com

Thanks.

This part of that statement is important: "The only way the testers could get it to fire....by pulling the trigger while it was fully cocked." We know Baldwin was holding the gun when it fired so it's reasonable to deduce the hammer was cocked (Baldwin admitted this).

Testers being unable to fire the gun when uncocked except with a mallet is also not helpful for Baldwin's defense.

I heard on the news this morning the prosecutors had offered him a plea deal then decided to charge him instead. Good. I hope he does some time.

"One source added that Baldwin’s case will be brought before a grand jury in mid-November. There had been recent discussions of a plea deal to a petty misdemeanor that was rescinded over the weekend, according to two sources familiar with the matter."

Prosecutors investigating 'Rust' shooting intend to bring involuntary manslaughter charge against Alec Baldwin before a grand jury

Special prosecutors dismissed this same charge against Baldwin five months, citing “new facts” in the case.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Marantz4250b]

The firearms were rented. So it would be interesting to know what condition they were in when HGR received them. I would assume (maybe not a good idea) that the rental company would have them in good condition and clean and expect them back in the same condition.

From the official reports, such as the FBI one, and pictures we have of it in AB's hand, the gun was in proper working order. It was a recently manufactured replica of an 1873 pattern Colt Single Action Army revolver made in Italy. These are well made guns. For it to be in a condition rendering it unsafe it would have had to have been, imo, grossly abused.