Hannah Graham: Body Recovered, 18 Oct, 2014 **Awaiting Forensic Confirmation** #3

[JohnTate90210]

The views from Bing Maps. These give a better idea of the stream bed and woods in relation to the house.

 

[mainemom]

Boy, am I confused....Was the body found behind the house? If so, maybe "the road" is the long driveway? Or "close to the road" meaning simply, not deep in the woods? JMO

We have heard that the body was found in a dry creek bed near the road. if you look at this map you can see that the Ammonett Branch creek runs near the road right next to the cabin on the property; I also think that "close to the road" could simply mean "close" relative to some of the more remote locations that have been searched. That it could have been in the creek bed behind the main house, not necessarily in the creek at it's closest point to the road...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/W...m2!3m1!1s0x89b3833550998513:0x541214b7b2c54c0

 

[wall0214]

http://www.c-ville.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/oldlynchburgcrimescene3.jpg
If the creek bed is within the trees, it's very likely that someone mowing the grass may not have seen anything unusual - as for smells - I have no idea. If neighbors are only recently reporting bad smells, it's possible that someone mowing might not have noticed anything - then again, if the mowing was subbed out, I doubt whoever was mowing the grass cared about any smells if there were any.
I don't know about Albemarle, but in an adjoining county, they have a grass ordinance that if grass is over 10" high (and someone complains to the county), a letter is sent to the owner of record to either mow the grass within 5 days, or the locality will send someone to mow the grass and a lien will be placed on the property. But as others have mentioned, while the property is vacant, I wouldn't consider it "abandoned." It was on the market as recently as 2012 (but was withdrawn) and the owner lives in the area, so they may have been sending someone to mow the grass.

 

[Just K]

BTW, last week I saw a BING car with a camera. I have seen the Google cars but never BING. Perhaps their street views are available or will be soon.

 

[JohnTate90210]

Here are two views at the same scale. One is the aerial photo and the other is a topographic map, so you can tell how the ground slopes and where the stream is. Google won't give a closer topo view, so I've made the aerial match it in scale. There are obviously closer aerials available, though.

 

[rsbryswrrl]

I don't think it's shenanigans. It seems like the man that found the remains was pleased with himself, and his message from God, that he wanted everyone to know that he and God get credit for discovering the remains. He gave an awful lot of details about the condition of the remains and location where they were found. In a sense, he tipped the hand of investigators in favor of the suspect before police had a chance to talk with the suspect about what they had found. It was like he forgot his professional role as the cameras started rolling.

Or the FBI and/or LE had coached him as to what to say as an appeal to the "religious" JM.

 

[Conductor71]

If we say that the average temperature was 24 C, then decomp would happen in 54 days. However, this formula doesn't take into account bug and animal activity, which would rapidly speed things up. JMO.

Very true, it is more a general ballpark for investigators from what I understand.

Plus things like exposure to elements in shade or directly in sun... Many more variables than this but helps IMO to make the skeletal condition in 5 weeks more plausible for non-experts.

 

[Steleheart]

Doesn't it seem like it, but I think it can be variable depending on location and temperature, humidity levels, for starters. Also read that a thinner person decomposes more rapidly because less tissue (body fat) which makes a lot of sense.

For anyone who is inclined, there is a formula for estimating decomposition rate based on average daily temperatures. I did see that the standard for complete decomposition to skeletal stage is 1285 days, so 5 weeks seems like warp speed? Covered in detail here. If anyone wants to pursue....

Decomposition is a complicated process, but is primarily dependent on temperature and to a lesser extent on
moisture. In our studies we have worked out a simple formula, which describes the soft tissue decomposition
process for persons lying on the ground.


The formula is y=1285/x (where y is the number of days it takes to
become skeletonized or mummified and x is the average
temperature in Centigrade during the decomposition
process). So, if the average temperature is 10 °C, then
1285/10 = 128.5 days for someone to become
skeletonized.

Of course, this is a rough estimate since
many factors affect this rate and it is typically used at a
crime scene when investigators need some time frame
from which to begin their investigation.

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/zalaczniki/upload617.pdf

http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1098&context=utk_gradthes

This is great, thank you.
I saw you posted this once before where I think you had done the calculation for MH. I wondered if you had the temps in Cville those 35 days. If that was not you my apologies.

My concern is for those who are comparing MH @ 100 days to HG @ 35 days - in Morgan's case the first stages of decomp would have been mild weather IIRC followed by freezing temps and the comparison is not linear, IMO since the initial decomp was then preserved by the low temps. Her remains presented some flesh and hair according to some reports.

In Hanna's case the stages of decomp were during warm/ humid weather followed by extensive rain storms. Reportedly these remains are without flesh/ hair, but the degree of skeletonization is unknown thus far. Add to that there have been 2 reports of Turkey Vulture activit. I think this would be a great comparison using your formula, taking into account weather in 2009 vs weather this season and then adding scavenger predation as reported.

Sounds like a challenge, no?

Appreciate your input!

:cow:

 

[rsbryswrrl]

I think this is out of the ordinary. It has to be because the finding officer is from that very area.

The finding officer is from Richmond, which is quite far from this area (about an hour East).

 

[cluciano63]

If vultures, etc go after a body quickly, is that really considered decomposition? Seems like that could throw off any process based on usual rates.

 

[wall0214]

While I applaud the searcher who found the remains, he was a Sergeant with the Chesterfield Sheriff's Department. Even if he was super excited, he should have known better than to release the details that he did to the media. With all due respect, it wasn't his place to reveal those details - it should have been up to the overseeing police agency (whether Albemarle, C'ville or the VSP?). Besides, we don't know what details were given to Hannah's family - maybe the police just called the family and said that remains had been found with no further details. It would be pretty callous for them to have learned those details through the media.
Someone had mentioned that maybe the release of the details would compromise LEs bluffing ability with JM - since he's lawyered up, while cops may speak to him with his attorney present, I'm pretty sure JM has been advised to keep his mouth shut at all costs, so I doubt the cops could have gone to him and evoked any kind of response - his attorney wouldn't have allowed that. Also, at some point, JM's attorney will have access to every piece of evidence that LE has - so I think JM and the attorney are just waiting until they see exactly what evidence LE has. It's in his benefit to keep his mouth shut.

 

[rsbryswrrl]

One thing that is standing out right now is that this property used to be a rental and in fact it still looks like it could have someone living there. Why would JM go here? How would he know if it was not rented at the time? Was he familiar with who lived there and knew it would be safe to go in the back? He had to be comfortable with the area. It is not like he was miles from a road/house. Remains were found close to a house and a road. I think there is something else that needs to be sleuthed in regards to this location.

I agree, and I think it has everything to do with the fact that it used to be an assisted living facility and that JM has worked as a cab driver, at an assisted living facility and at the UVA hospital. I would guess that there were lots of opportunities between his work and that property for him to have known it was vacant. Plus if he still knew anyone in that area, when he heard about the car crash on that road that killed the property's owner, he would have known the property was then vacant. I have also seen reference to the rental cabin and "nefarious" things happening there. Who knows how much JM knew or was involved with that?

 

[mirv22]

Old Lynchburg Road is very dark at night, as Paulap stated, he could very easily pull into that property unnoticed. However, if he was quickly looking to "dispose" of a body (hate typing that) then I think this gate, just down the way could have been a possibility. What I was trying to determine from JohnTate's topo map, was what direction the creek "flows." I'm assuming it flows north in the scenario I'm proposing. See this screen shot of the gate, and the location of the stream (using the little "street view" yellow guy" as the indicator). It would have been a quick dump, her remains then proceeded to get washed down the creek with some of the heavy rains we've had. Just a though and total speculation on my part. No houses to see him pull up and a quick drop for him. Would explain why no hair too...it washed away.

 

[Isabelle]

The finding officer is from Richmond, which is quite far from this area (about an hour East).

Was he there as part of the volunteer search or was Richmond LE providing resources? Thanks.

 

[JohnTate90210]

A different topo match with the house marked by a red arrow. Note a small cemetery is just a tiny distance up the road.

 

[SolverGameChanger]

Did the investigation at the beginning start in the area where they found Hanna's body in the region around where MH was found ?

After a few days of Hannah missing what would you have done ?

Then after knowing that JLM was a person of interest what would you have done ?

Then when finding JLM's DNA connected to MH what would you have done ?

I wonder what comments made within the forum of discussion of Hanna's Search 1....4 did actually point to a possible area of focus.

If there was a capability to vote on "probable" "not probable" "impossible"etc during this process of discussion, I wonder if collectively we would arrive at something useful.

crowd sourcing solutions mixed in with the forum discussion.

 

[Conductor71]

This is great, thank you.
I saw you posted this once before where I think you had done the calculation for MH. I wondered if you had the temps in Cville those 35 days. If that was not you my apologies.

My concern is for those who are comparing MH @ 100 days to HG @ 35 days - in Morgan's case the first stages of decomp would have been mild weather IIRC followed by freezing temps and the comparison is not linear, IMO since the initial decomp was then preserved by the low temps. Her remains presented some flesh and hair according to some reports.

In Hanna's case the stages of decomp were during warm/ humid weather followed by extensive rain storms. Reportedly these remains are without flesh/ hair, but the degree of skeletonization is unknown thus far. Add to that there have been 2 reports of Turkey Vulture activit. I think this would be a great comparison using your formula, taking into account weather in 2009 vs weather this season and then adding scavenger predation as reported.

Sounds like a challenge, no?

Appreciate your input!

:cow:

Ha, that was Otto, I believe. I am not good with numbers but will leave that to the number crunching sleuths out here.

My question is how this impacts the investigation. From what I have read, it is extremely difficult to determine cause of death with skeletal remains and with little to no tissue left get any sort of toxicology report. How in the world does the prosecution prove defilement with no measure of any alcohol in her system? Honestly, I do not even see how it will make it past arraignment. Not a legal expert, but seems that video and witness testimony is not nearly enough when building a case leading to potential murder charges.

 

[JohnTate90210]

What I was trying to determine from JohnTate's topo map, was what direction the creek "flows."

It flows south. The map has the standard directions of top is north.

 

[mirv22]

It flows south. The map has the standard directions of top is north.

Ok, thank you! So my theory would be wrong.... lol. Unless of course he parked there and traipsed through the woods to behind the house. Ugh, I'll stop now. I don't know why I'm obsessed with that gate.

 

[Conductor71]

While I applaud the searcher who found the remains, he was a Sergeant with the Chesterfield Sheriff's Department. Even if he was super excited, he should have known better than to release the details that he did to the media. With all due respect, it wasn't his place to reveal those details - it should have been up to the overseeing police agency (whether Albemarle, C'ville or the VSP?). Besides, we don't know what details were given to Hannah's family - maybe the police just called the family and said that remains had been found with no further details. It would be pretty callous for them to have learned those details through the media.
Someone had mentioned that maybe the release of the details would compromise LEs bluffing ability with JM - since he's lawyered up, while cops may speak to him with his attorney present, I'm pretty sure JM has been advised to keep his mouth shut at all costs, so I doubt the cops could have gone to him and evoked any kind of response - his attorney wouldn't have allowed that. Also, at some point, JM's attorney will have access to every piece of evidence that LE has - so I think JM and the attorney are just waiting until they see exactly what evidence LE has. It's in his benefit to keep his mouth shut.

Not to mention it is rather Law Enforcement 101? Most lay people know that this is a big no-no. What concerns me more is that none of his superiors or Longo or anyone has addressed this. It was different when LE spoke out to correct rumor on interviewing LJM in 2009. Do they want us to believe this? It makes me question anything else heard from LE on this case. Who or what to believe anymore?