Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

[makista]

Is it possible he didn't park in the driveway....and used Walnut Park Access roads instead....also in the dark is it possible he wasn't aware of how close to a house he was? Assuming if he had gotten to that spot through the park.

Morgan's remains were in a spot that would have been tough to drive right too, meaning she would have had to have been carried...JLM is a big guy, if he could have carried Morgan, he could have carried HG too. So maybe it was the park he entered and chose...not neccasrily that house?

MH had many broken bones. Although graphic, I am under the impression MH was just ran over by the car. HG's skeletal remains were intact

 

[SoALJohn]

The tail lights thing is really not complicated. The area isn't densly populated and at 2 AM very few people would be up to see the car drive by at all. There was a 3/4 moon that night and provided that there was no major cloud cover, there would have been plent of light to pull in behind the house with all the lights off and using the handbrake so the brake lights would not illuminate. Just my opinion.

 

[ILOKAL]

We may be over thinking this tail lights thing. It would have been roughly 2-230 am (i believe, id have to check times, and map it exactly to be more accurate) if he drove straight from the downtown mall area to
the spot where she was found. I'm guessing most people are sleeping at that time of night/early morning. So I could easily see how he could drive right into the driveway, or park, or side road without anyone noticing tail lights. They would only be on briefly, then he would be able to turn the car off and be in darkness. That would have given him a few hours to be there with her (assuming she was killed and left there that night, which is what I'm leaning toward), and still be able to turn the tail lights back on, by drive away while neighbors where still snug in their beds.

Then again, what are your thoughts on where he silenced her? The property where the remains were found is ONLY 2.5 acres. That's not much. We lived on 4.5 acres with our neighbors on the other side of a small creek. We could hear them talk on their front porch. Would screams be heard? You betcha! IMO

 

[ILOKAL]

The tail lights thing is really not complicated. The area isn't densly populated and at 2 AM very few people would be up to see the car drive by at all. There was a 3/4 moon that night and provided that there was no major cloud cover, there would have been plent of light to pull in behind the house with all the lights off and using the handbrake so the brake lights would not illuminate. Just my opinion.

Thanks for posting that! I completely agree.

 

[bessie]

Though I can't find anything to tell me how long a body must be dead before the dogs detect the smell.

Within a couple of hours, if not sooner.

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At the start of our investigation, the postmortem interval for both men (A and B) was measured at 110 and 120 min, respectively. Their body temperature was measured at 37.2 8 C (A) and 36.7 8 C (B). Both bodies presented with a dry and intact skin without any visible injuries except a puncture site from an intra-venous catheter on the posterior surface of one hand. These puncture marks were immediately covered with latex gloves to prevent a direct contamination of any materials with the dried blood.

http://pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg 1998.pdf

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[SoALJohn]

Then again, what are your thoughts on where he silenced her? The property where the remains were found is ONLY 2.5 acres. That's not much. We lived on 4.5 acres with our neighbors on the other side of a small creek. We could hear them talk on their front porch. Would screams be heard? You betcha! IMO

I concur. I have 4.5 acres and I could easily hear my most distant "close" neighbor scream from their house. Sadly, I feel she had to be totally incapacitated by the time he pulled in wherever he parked. I have always felt she was drugged with something. This would account for many things about the whole story. Plus, evidence of these drugs would give LE probably cause for the "intent to defile" charges. IMO.

 

[ThinkHard]

From the timeline:

Sat 9-13 1:45 am Hannah last seen alive (according to what we know now) at Tempo with JM; Hannah obviously impaired and unsteady on her feet

Sat 9-13 JM misses morning football meeting at The Covenant School

week of 9-13 to 9-19 Coworkers at UVa Medical Center observe that JM is morose and solitary

Fri 9-19 (late evening) CPD executes a search warrant on JM's car and impounds the car, finds evidence, gets additional search warrants

Fri 9-19 to Sat 9-20 (midnight to early morning) CPD executes search warrants on JM's apartment and cell phone, seize phone and several bags of evidence, news reports show officers carrying out bags of evidence during daylight hours

I was remembering the sighting or reported sighting of JLM in Lexington or should I say the Morgan Harrington suspect. I looked it up and it was reported on Sept. 15.

I compared that to the timeline....and am wondering if from where he left HG he drove straight to Lexington, and perhaps crashed with a friend, or stayed at a hotel?....showered? Shopped? Got rid of evidence?

We have him reported at work the week of 9/13....but do we actually know what days he was scheduled that week? Are there any other sightings people reported seeing him btw when he was with Hannah, and when he was at work?

Could the person have seen him on sat/ or Sunday of that wknd but not reported it right away?

 

[ThinkHard]

MH had many broken bones. Although graphic, I am under the impression MH was just ran over by the car. HG's skeletal remains were intact

How would the condition of the skeleton impact his ability to carry them?

 

[MJPeony]

From the timeline:

Sat 9-13 1:45 am Hannah last seen alive (according to what we know now) at Tempo with JM; Hannah obviously impaired and unsteady on her feet

Sat 9-13 JM misses morning football meeting at The Covenant School

week of 9-13 to 9-19 Coworkers at UVa Medical Center observe that JM is morose and solitary

Fri 9-19 (late evening) CPD executes a search warrant on JM's car and impounds the car, finds evidence, gets additional search warrants

Fri 9-19 to Sat 9-20 (midnight to early morning) CPD executes search warrants on JM's apartment and cell phone, seize phone and several bags of evidence, news reports show officers carrying out bags of evidence during daylight hours

I was remembering the sighting or reported sighting of JLM in Lexington or should I say the Morgan Harrington suspect. I looked it up and it was reported on Sept. 15.

I compared that to the timeline....and am wondering if from where he left HG he drove straight to Lexington, and perhaps crashed with a friend, or stayed at a hotel?....showered? Shopped? Got rid of evidence?

We have him reported at work the week of 9/13....but do we actually know what days he was scheduled that week? Are there any other sightings people reported seeing him btw when he was with Hannah, and when he was at work?

Could the person have seen him on sat/ or Sunday of that wknd but not reported it right away?

My understanding from this article and from what I remember hearing at the time was that the sighting was actually about 2 weeks prior to the reporting of that sighting. Which is in itself another bizarre thing about this case- but I think perhaps it was just someone thinking they must have seen him once the MH Sketch photos started being posted on the media after HG went missing. But JMO.

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/lex...of-suspect-in-morgan-harrington-case/28095082

 

[makista]

How would the condition of the skeleton impact his ability to carry them?

I don't see JM as carrying anything really. If he is going to do anything, it would be easy. I can see him running over her and just leaving her there. To be honest, JM really doesn't fit the profile of these two. It's really hard for me to see him dumping HG. He may have rolled her out of the car seat.. He pretty much sees people as trash.. ( JMO)

I probably should take a break until he is convicted.

 

[ThinkHard]

Then again, what are your thoughts on where he silenced her? The property where the remains were found is ONLY 2.5 acres. That's not much. We lived on 4.5 acres with our neighbors on the other side of a small creek. We could hear them talk on their front porch. Would screams be heard? You betcha! IMO

Being able to hear people from that distance greatly depends on the direction of the wind. If you are downwind of someone you can hear very easily what the are saying, even from far away. But the same distance upwind would be nearly impossible to hear. (Said only through the experience by a lifelong sailor). A scream I agree would be a bit different, as its louder then normal conversation. I guess based on what we have heard of her last known condition I'm not convinced he would have needed to silence her.

 

[damien]

Flesh would hold the body intact until the rotting set in .

 

[ILOKAL]

I concur. I have 4.5 acres and I could easily hear my most distant "close" neighbor scream from their house. Sadly, I feel she had to be totally incapacitated by the time he pulled in wherever he parked. I have always felt she was drugged with something. This would account for many things about the whole story. Plus, evidence of these drugs would give LE probably cause for the "intent to defile" charges. IMO.

I haven't seen this mentioned, but it may have been. I've thought the visual scenarios we've seen and heard about might have lead to him having used a stun gun. People "collapse"'when stunned and if he had his arm around her, as big as he is, she would not have fallen. He put her in the passenger seat, drove somewhere close by, stopped, and then duct taped her mouth and tied her hands and legs.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't see JM as carrying anything really. If he is going to do anything, it would be easy. I can see him running over her and just leaving her there. To be honest, JM really doesn't fit the profile of these two. It's really hard for me to see him dumping HG. He may have rolled her out of the car seat.. He pretty much sees people as trash.. ( JMO)

I probably should take a break until he is convicted.

I disagree. Not with your statement on him treating people poorly. But there is no way he DROVE all the way to the dumping site of Morgan. A vehicle cannot drive that close to where she was found. So in Morgans case she either walked there on her own, or she was carried....clearly if her bones were broken before she was brought there he didn't walk...if she walked her bones were broken there which rules out the car theory.
In Hannah's case, she too would either have to have walked, or been carrying to where se was found, as a car just could get that close.

As lazy or opportunist as JLM was, he had enough sense of self preservation, to put at least some effort in concealing the bodies. He was 260, carrying a 120-140 lb girl would not exactly be effort to him.

Thought bubble: JLM seemed religious, as weird as that may seem, given that Hannah's body was found in a creek bed, and Morgan's was tucked under brush by a fence post I believe, do we at all think these subtle attempt to conceal them, might have been his way of burying them, because of religious beliefs? I trendy think no, but I wanted to see what you guys thought.

 

[hambirg]

Then again, what are your thoughts on where he silenced her? The property where the remains were found is ONLY 2.5 acres. That's not much. We lived on 4.5 acres with our neighbors on the other side of a small creek. We could hear them talk on their front porch. Would screams be heard? You betcha! IMO

Duct tape. If JM drugged HG, and I believe he did, he could have duct taped her mouth while she was out. Sadly, that seems to be a common MO. . .drug the victim and then tie them up and silence them before they come to.

ETA- maybe that's what happened at the park. Its more isolated if she ran or screamed there. But for whatever reason the actual attack happened behind the vacant house.

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ILOKAL]

Being able to hear people from that distance greatly depends on the direction of the wind. If you are downwind of someone you can hear very easily what the are saying, even from far away. But the same distance upwind would be nearly impossible to hear. (Said only through the experience by a lifelong sailor). A scream I agree would be a bit different, as its louder then normal conversation. I guess based on what we have heard of her last known condition I'm not convinced he would have needed to silence her.

I think you're overrating the wind factor. My 4.5 acres was in Oklahoma, the wind capital of the world, and we lived there 20+ years. No unusual wind factor has been reported for that night, that I am aware of? I don't think JLM would risk screams in the middle of the night in that area with a minimum of five other homes nearby. JMO

 

[ThinkHard]

Two questions:

Do we know if any of the neighbors have dogs?

And two: do we know where JLM's car was parked?

 

[ILOKAL]

I disagree. Not with your statement on him treating people poorly. But there is no way he DROVE all the way to the dumping site of Morgan. A vehicle cannot drive that close to where she was found. So in Morgans case she either walked there on her own, or she was carried....clearly if her bones were broken before she was brought there he didn't walk...if she walked her bones were broken there which rules out the car theory.
In Hannah's case, she too would either have to have walked, or been carrying to where se was found, as a car just could get that close.

As lazy or opportunist as JLM was, he had enough sense of self preservation, to put at least some effort in concealing the bodies. He was 260, carrying a 120-140 lb girl would not exactly be effort to him.

Thought bubble: JLM seemed religious, as weird as that may seem, given that Hannah's body was found in a creek bed, and Morgan's was tucked under brush by a fence post I believe, do we at all think these subtle attempt to conceal them, might have been his way of burying them, because of religious beliefs? I trendy think no, but I wanted to see what you guys thought.

He may not have carried them - he might have dragged them.

 

[ksj3]

He may not have carried them - he might have dragged them.

You guys seem to forget the accounts, throughout his life, that he picked women up and slung them over his shoulders. Twice that night, in fact. If Hannah were drugged, as it appears she was from her change in ability to stand/walk before leaving Tempo, slinging her over his shoulder unconscious would have been an easy feat for him.

By the accounts of people with personal experience being "roofied," she wouldn't have been able to move or scream if that's what happened to her.

He could have pulled into either of the spots at the house where she was found, unnoticed by anyone because of the topography of the land, and done what he did behind or in the house, put her in the creek, and left without her running, fighting, screaming or anyone around having even noticed he had been there, which makes me very sad.

To the dogs, in Coy Barefoot's post from having visited the site, he heard "one dog" bark in the distance while he was there. But even if owners had dogs, they likely don't bark at every car that drives past their house, and it seems with the tree and hill cover, sounds wouldn't have traveled far if there were any. Dogs don't usually bark until someone threatens their "perimeter," which is usually their driveway/yard, not across and down the street.

All JMO.

 

[ThinkHard]

He may not have carried them - he might have dragged them.

Would you drag something you could carry much easier?