Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

[ThinkHard]

You guys seem to forget the accounts, throughout his life, that he picked women up and slung them over his shoulders. Twice that night, in fact. If Hannah were drugged, as it appears she was from her change in ability to stand/walk before leaving Tempo, slinging her over his shoulder unconscious would have been an easy feat for him.

By the accounts of people with personal experience being "roofied," she wouldn't have been able to move or scream if that's what happened to her.

He could have pulled into either of the spots at the house where she was found, unnoticed by anyone because of the topography of the land, and done what he did behind or in the house, put her in the creek, and left without her running, fighting, screaming or anyone around having even noticed he had been there, which makes me very sad.

To the dogs, in Coy Barefoot's post from having visited the site, he heard "one dog" bark in the distance while he was there. But even if owners had dogs, they likely don't bark at every car that drives past their house, and it seems with the tree and hill cover, sounds wouldn't have traveled far if there were any. Dogs don't usually bark until someone threatens their "perimeter," which is usually their driveway/yard, not across and down the street.

All JMO.

I agree with this, yet I have had dogs my entire life, and one thing I've noticed is that dogs also tend to bark at sounds that are "out of the ordinary to them", they also tend to know schedules of sounds. My dogs can hear my husbands car, and go crazy when he gets home, just hearing him come up the street. And its not overly loud. So dogs who live in areas with lots of neighbors where comings and goings happen at all hours regularly then dogs are going to be unlikely to bark at these familiar things. But if you live in an area with few neighbors, a car door in the middle of the night, while his owners are home and asleep, might in fact make a dog bark simply because it is out of the ordinary.

 

[Charlie Chan]

I agree with you that he had to know the area, at least in a general,sense, where the quiet roads are, stuff like that. Come to think of it, I grew up in a spread out area, heavily wooded, not rural but rural parts. In high school I knew all the side roads, back roads, the roads few people traveled, or cops rarely went...why? Teenage stuff...woods parties, parking spots, spots to go smoke marijuana. If JLM grew up around here, its possible he could have been familiar with the area for similar reasons.

Also I just wanted to point out that where HG was found it wasn't really abandoned property. It just wasnt currently being occupied. It was owned, on the market for a bit even, and was trying to be rented. To me abandon building is like one that's run down, and no one claims, or is caring for. This was t me a propert, without current residence. Anyway the simple semantics, change to me, what JLM would have known about that location, and perhaps more importantly why he would have known about that location. Its not like he knew of an old, long since abandon property no one goes too. This house was different then that. He would have specifically have to have known, that no one was CURRENTLY living there. It strikes me that it simply wouldn't have been enough to have seen the house listed on rental, or on a for sale sight, and know it wasn't being occupied. Because plenty of places for sale or rent still have current tenants. Perhaps he visited with the landlord and knew no one was there? I dunno that seems also too premeditated for this guy. I'm not convinced he was a planner, beyond strike when there was an opportunity, and he had a "hunger" (which seems stronger in the fall btw). More likely I'd be willing to bet he had a conversation in the days and weeks before at some point about that very house, and someone mentioned they were trying to rent it, but no one was living there, in a casual conversation way. Then when he had HG and started driving, he thought of that place.

JM used to work in an assisted-living/eldercare facility. The vacant house, behind which HG's remains were found, was operating as an assisted-living/eldercare facility for a brief period of time. Perhaps JM had applied for a job there, therefore becoming familiar with the property. He also probably traveled this area often, given the proximity of his mother's home (and perhaps during his cabbie days). I think he most likely knew that the property had been taken off of the market by the fact that the "for sale" sign was removed a few months ago. This may have led to him formulating, in his mind, the idea that this would be a good "site" for his next violent act.

Or, in a completely different direction, he was moving out of his Hessian Hills apt on Oct 30 and we have had no information as to where he had intended to live, or with whom. Perhaps he had checked out the Old Lynchburg Road house to rent and, when visiting it, realized that it would be a good place for him to do his deeds. When the owner of OL Road house was contacted by media immediately after HG's remains had been found, the owner very politely explained that LE had instructed her to discuss nothing. Perhaps because she KNEW JM and knew that he had been to that property before, in some capacity.? Perhaps the house was taken off of the market because the owner had agreed to rent the house. Maybe a rental agreement that would have begun on Nov 1st, for example?

Both just theories. IDK.

 

[ILOKAL]

Would you drag something you could carry much easier?

I don't "know" that carrying an incapacitated person is easier than dragging. I doubt many of us to.

 

[makista]

He may not have carried them - he might have dragged them.

I can see that. thank-you.. Body weight is much heavier when deceased. He would have to be in excellent shape to do that and he is not. Not unless- alcohol gave him that second wind. Also, since the victim is to blame for his misery.. I can see him dragging them for making him miserable and having to use his "precious" force, that remotely stays "reserved" for more reputable people that are worthy of his presence.

 

[ILOKAL]

JM used to work in an assisted-living/eldercare facility. The vacant house, behind which HG's remains were found, was operating as an assisted-living/eldercare facility for a brief period of time. Perhaps JM had applied for a job there, therefore becoming familiar with the property. He also probably traveled this area often, given the proximity of his mother's home (and perhaps during his cabbie days). I think he most likely knew that the property had been taken off of the market by the fact that the "for sale" sign was removed a few months ago. This may have led to him formulating, in his mind, the idea that this would be a good "site" for his next violent act.

Or, in a completely different direction, he was moving out of his Hessian Hills apt on Oct 30 and we have had no information as to where he had intended to live, or with whom. Perhaps he had checked out the Old Lynchburg Road house to rent and, when visiting it, realized that it would be a good place for him to do his deeds. When the owner of OL Road house was contacted by media immediately after HG's remains had been found, the owner very politely explained that LE had instructed her to discuss nothing. Perhaps because she KNEW JM and knew that he had been to that property before, in some capacity.?

Both just theories. IDK.

Both are good ideas, but I would then still question how he would know the house had not, in fact, been sold or rented? That possibility kept the landscaper from searching further.

 

[ksj3]

I agree with this, yet I have had dogs my entire life, and one thing I've noticed is that dogs also tend to bark at sounds that are "out of the ordinary to them", they also tend to know schedules of sounds. My dogs can hear my husbands car, and go crazy when he gets home, just hearing him come up the street. And its not overly loud. So dogs who live in areas with lots of neighbors where comings and goings happen at all hours regularly then dogs are going to be unlikely to bark at these familiar things. But if you live in an area with few neighbors, a car door in the middle of the night, while his owners are home and asleep, might in fact make a dog bark simply because it is out of the ordinary.

That's all true, too. I wish I could find the source, but I've read that dogs will alert to their owner's car in particular from some crazy distance because it is that of their owner. Farther, likely, than they would alert to an unfamiliar car. We live in the woods with dogs, so I know exactly what you mean in your statement. But I also know how, even though we're surrounded by dogs who bark with fair regularity, we don't worry about it and it's way off in the distance even though they're not actually that far away.

And then you have things like a friend of mine who posted at 1:00 am this morning, wishing that the "constant barking" of dogs from the property directly behind theirs would stop as it had been going on for hours. She wasn't going to call LE with the thoughts of someone being murdered, though perhaps she should have.

I suspect he'd visited that property before and would know whether or not there were dogs in the area that might alert their owners, but even if there were he probably assumed the owners wouldn't do anything about it.

 

[whiskers]

Once again I will state that when local Lexington LE released the statement about someone seeing a person that resembled the sketch, it coincided within a few days of Hannah's disappearance. But he was *not* spotted in Lexington that weekend. The person waited *two* weeks to come forward

That would mean that the supposed person resembling the sketch was seen in Lexington *two* weeks before Hannah disappeared.

 

[klily444]

I don't see JM as carrying anything really. If he is going to do anything, it would be easy. I can see him running over her and just leaving her there. To be honest, JM really doesn't fit the profile of these two. It's really hard for me to see him dumping HG. He may have rolled her out of the car seat.. He pretty much sees people as trash.. ( JMO)

I probably should take a break until he is convicted.

Running over someone gets messy, forensically. I don't think he wanted to get caught, and I don't think he wanted a missing persons DNA all over the outside of his car. I definitely don't think he ran over HG, and with MH (which we can discuss further in her thread) he wouldn't have been able to get his car to the location she was found. So, he either carried, dragged, or made his victim walk, IMO.
You said JM doesn't fit the profile of his victims. Did you mean to say that those two specific victims don't fit JM's profile? In your opinion, what do the profiles represent? Meaning, what do you mean when you say the profiles don't fit? Are you talking about disposal, the act itself, the looks or background of the women? Just would like some clarification, thanks.

 

[ILOKAL]

I agree with this, yet I have had dogs my entire life, and one thing I've noticed is that dogs also tend to bark at sounds that are "out of the ordinary to them", they also tend to know schedules of sounds. My dogs can hear my husbands car, and go crazy when he gets home, just hearing him come up the street. And its not overly loud. So dogs who live in areas with lots of neighbors where comings and goings happen at all hours regularly then dogs are going to be unlikely to bark at these familiar things. But if you live in an area with few neighbors, a car door in the middle of the night, while his owners are home and asleep, might in fact make a dog bark simply because it is out of the ordinary.

Also, sme dogs bark from excitement like when your husband arrives HO. Ours does the same when someone actually "arrives". Our dogs (present and past) don't mark when a car drives by or pulls in a driveway no matter the time. Then again, some dogs are "barkers", like schnauzers, and bark at everything and nothing. Of course there are different barks that dogs use for different things.

 

[ILOKAL]

Once again I will state that when local Lexington LE released the statement about someone seeing a person that resembled the sketch, it coincided within a few days of Hannah's disappearance. But he was *not* spotted in Lexington that weekend. The person waited *two* weeks to come forward

That would mean that the supposed person resembling the sketch was seen in Lexington *two* weeks before Hannah disappeared.

Right, Whiskers. The LE Lexington released that statement on September 16th, two days after Hannah was reported missing. I think there's a copy of it on the Hannah/Morgan thread.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't "know" that carrying an incapacitated person is easier than dragging. I doubt many of us to.

Ha good point!

I guess I just don't think his size vs her size, deceased, incapacitated, alive, I don't think it would have been an effort for him to carry either of them. And what I meant was, if you consider something you would carry, like a hiking backpack while you are hiking....would it be easier to carry it over your back?mor drag it on the ground, across roots, and rocks. I think if you had the size means for a human body to be easy to carry as a backpack....I doubt you'd drag it. Dragging would also leave more evidence.

 

[Charlie Chan]

Both are good ideas, but I would then still question how he would know the house had not, in fact, been sold or rented? That possibility kept the landscaper from searching further.[/QU

I was thinking that perhaps JM contacted the Homeowner based on the For Sale sign to ask if she would be willing to rent to him (as I do think he drives by this house on a somewhat regular basis, given where his mother lives etc.). Given how long the property had been on the market, the Homeowner may have agreed and thus, taken it off the market and removed the "for sale" sign. In this scenario, only JM would know that even though there was no sign, there was no one living there. Just a (probably unlikely) theory but in this rural area of Virginia, people tend to know one another and maybe the HO was doing a favor as a result of an acquaintance with JM's mom, etc. ?

 

[ThinkHard]

Right, Whiskers. The LE Lexington released that statement on September 16th, two days after Hannah was reported missing. I think there's a copy of it on the Hannah/Morgan thread.

Can you link where the statement about two weeks after are. I don't ever remember reading that. Thanks!

Here's a link to the post about the sighting http://www.wsls.com/story/26550666/alert-possible-sighting-of-harrington-murder-suspect

 

[ILOKAL]

Ha good point!

I guess I just don't think his size vs her size, deceased, incapacitated, alive, I don't think it would have been an effort for him to carry either of them. And what I meant was, if you consider something you would carry, like a hiking backpack while you are hiking....would it be easier to carry it over your back?mor drag it on the ground, across roots, and rocks. I think if you had the size means for a human body to be easy to carry as a backpack....I doubt you'd drag it. Dragging would also leave more evidence.

No offense, ThinkHard, but I don't think your comparison is a valid one. Backpacks ARE easier to carry than drag, that's why they're called backpacks and have straps to fit shoulders. Also, actually carrying a body would leave more potential incriminating evidence. Although carrying would not leave drag marks, I doubt that would be a concern in either case. JMO. Btw, do you carry your dog or walk it on a leash, or does it just depend?

 

[Foxfire]

Imo, JM would have likely utilized the shelter of the vacant/abandoned cottage as his safe haven to privately carry out his deviant sexual acts..as he likely had so many times before. Even a novice serial killer in training would be aware that water deteriorates dna forensics, and that a creek or branch is frequented by the many scavengers of the forest.. Making it a preferred spot for remains disposal..
How long does DNA last? The short answer is that it’s complicated, and determined by a number of unpredictable factors such as weather, possible postmortem chemical contamination by the perp, and the victim's final resting place.

Imo, JM was a malignant sadistic psychopathic sexual predator, and likely a prolific serial killer... that evaded identification and justice, remaining stealth while hiding in plain sight for years, and possibly for over a decade. Although soulless, psychopaths are very rapid thinkers, usually of high intelligence, very creative, calculating, manipulative, and deflective. Most times they will fool even the most experienced and competent homicide detectives..
_____________________

Since there is no such thing as the perfect crime, sexual predators/serial killers often make mental errors and trivial but damning mistakes when executing their heinous crimes that enable investigators to eventually connect the dots. This usually happens with more frequency once they have been identified. Once identified, they go on the defense as did JM...

Imo, JM's car had a temporary spare tire on his vehicle and the distinct tire tracks may be one of the forensics' items that ties him to the vacant property crime scene.. jmo
________________________
Bumping foxfire's & Elley Mae's post/s #355 from 09/25/2013 10: 36 AM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Sept-2014-15-*ARREST*&p=11012791#post11012791

Quote Originally Posted by Elley Mae View Post
I wouldn't think he would put her in the same place as the other, could be in that general area though. If he is responsible for others in the area of charlottesville I wouldn't expect the bodies to be found in the spot. jmo idk

Elley Mae, I am thinking that the damage to his vehicle was likely done recently and may have been while disposing of HG's remains. This seems logical due to the temporary spare tire on JM's vehicle. These tires are only meant to be driven for a short distance.
Imo, HG's remains will likely be located in a remote area; state or federal forest or large rural wooded private tract....
Curious as too whether the missing part of the bumper was left by JM where the damage occurred..Likely a non-maintained jeep trail/logging road..

 

[FindHG]

Imo, it wouldn't be difficult for him to realize the house(s) were vacant if he drove down OL Rd often. I have a long route to drive to work every day, down roads that are similar to OL Rd, and I can always tell when houses are vacant, even if there are curtains in the windows, which there do appear to be at 3193. A vacant house just looks different from an occupied house - there's nothing out in the yard, there are never any cars around, you never see anything change. After a few days of being vacant, it's easy to tell. I think he would have known just from seeing, over time.

And dunno if this has been everyone's point in talking about the "For Sale" sign, but JM could have knocked that thing over himself, so his spot wouldn't be disturbed.

Also, y'all don't forget that gate that's down the road a bit. It looks like there's a wide, clear path on the other side of that gate. If he could carry Morgan to where she was found, he could have hidden his car somewhere and carried Hannah down that path. Moving through the trees, he could be out of sight of everyone, and only exposed for long enough to get across the road. For example...

So, that night, 3/4 moon, clear sky maybe, in that area, he may have been in some kind of prime aberrant element that's worth risking everything. In a hyper state, no less, then coming to somewhere, into his somber state, perhaps when his self-preservation kicks in. Then, he has a couple of days.

His timeline, between then and his being on a video made public is not public, but if some reports & tidbits are to be believed he played it cool, reached out for advice, as soon as he either appeared or was ID'd off the videos...

I wonder what the area looks like at night, Walnut Creek Park and the woodlands across from it, from high and other common vantage points, as you drive by, walk through it at night, what stands out beneath the stars, the moon, the trees? Sounds crazy, but if he spent time there at night familiar with the area, an area that may have moved some perverse part of him, and he's all into the out-of-doors, what are his sights in his comfort zone? I guess especially the ones that would feed some perverse of grandiosity?

 

[ThinkHard]

Both are good ideas, but I would then still question how he would know the house had not, in fact, been sold or rented? That possibility kept the landscaper from searching further.[/QU

I was thinking that perhaps JM contacted the Homeowner based on the For Sale sign to ask if she would be willing to rent to him (as I do think he drives by this house on a somewhat regular basis, given where his mother lives etc.). Given how long the property had been on the market, the Homeowner may have agreed and thus, taken it off the market and removed the "for sale" sign. In this scenario, only JM would know that even though there was no sign, there was no one living there. Just a (probably unlikely) theory but in this rural area of Virginia, people tend to know one another and maybe the HO was doing a favor as a result of an acquaintance with JM's mom, etc. ?

Two thoughts....I believe I read that JLM was astranged from his mom? Did anyone else read this? I wonder if so, for how long, and if presently try were on speaking terms. I just question how often he would have been visiting mom, if they weren't on good terms.

My other thought is JLM worked in Cville, volunteered in Cville, and enjoyed Cville nightlife....I'd think he'd be more likely to live closer then a 25 minute commute to Cville downtown. There's plenty of places to rent for all sorts of different prices. That house seems a little far out for him to consider it for a rental.

 

[MJPeony]

Can you link where the statement about two weeks after are. I don't ever remember reading that. Thanks!

Here's a link to the post about the sighting http://www.wsls.com/story/26550666/alert-possible-sighting-of-harrington-murder-suspect

Here's what I posted a little while ago, but I can't find it now. (ok, found it- it's back a page)


My understanding from this article and from what I remember hearing at the time was that the sighting was actually about 2 weeks prior to the reporting of that sighting. Which is in itself another bizarre thing about this case- but I think perhaps it was just someone thinking they must have seen him once the MH Sketch photos started being posted on the media after HG went missing. But JMO.

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/lexi...-case/28095082

 

[ILOKAL]

Can you link where the statement about two weeks after are. I don't ever remember reading that. Thanks!

Here's a link to the post about the sighting http://www.wsls.com/story/26550666/alert-possible-sighting-of-harrington-murder-suspect

No, because I never read that. I only began reading here regarding Hannah. I located the warning to the university students dated 9-16-14 online at readthehook.com.

 

[MJPeony]

No, because I never read that. I only began reading here regarding Hannah. I located the warning to the university students dated 9-16-14 online at readthehook.com.

From wdbj7, on Sept 16th: "Police say the apparent sighting happened two weeks ago off campus, but they wouldn't say why the person waited so long to report it."
http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/lexi...-case/28095082