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double post
Yes. And it was expected she would comply with NOT calling the police and allowing JR to make a delivery of the ransom money.It is contradictory, and so, as with the body in the basement we need to ask why they'd do something contradictory. The answer of course is that PR called 911, at that point there is no chance at all to keep the note private. It was not made public deliberately. It was left on the stairs for PR to find.
I tend to think the Rs, like most of us, want to avoid prison, and would stage something believable, rather than rolling the dice on a nonsensical crime scene.
No, once the cops are called there will never be a chance to do anything with the body (except perhaps to relocate it within the basement) and the culprit(s) would have had to anticipate that.
Because there could have been no plan to dump the body after the 911 call. It had to be done prior to calling the police.
[/quote]So JR tosses the RN on the stairs and goes back to bed, duh!
If JR had executed that plan successfully he would have been designated immediately as the prime suspect.
Chrishope,
In all three variants of the RDI kidnapping theories, the R's failed to follow through, e.g. not dumped outdoors, not left in wine-cellar, i.e. discovered.
So either the theories are incorrect in part in their assumptions, or the R's made irrational decisions?
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Chrishope;9555584 said:
Yes. And it was expected she would comply with NOT calling the police and allowing JR to make a delivery of the ransom money.
This is one area where I give JR high marks. I think he knew he couldn't fool a coroner with a faked accident. He'd have to be an expert on what causes skull fractures, and he didn't even really know the full extent of the injury to the skull. (But if he is the one who hit her in the head, he knows for sure that he did some damage, even though it's not visible) I don't think faking an accident was an option - at least not a good one. I do agree this is what a lot of people would have done.Yes, like NO kidnapping/RN - rather, position JB so it looks like she slipped and fell down the staircase, maybe even with her head laying against one of the stair rungs or posts. Call 911, say "I came downstairs, I think my daughter fell down the stairs - she's not breathing."
To the extent we are talking about the Doc theory, I agree. Up until the 911 call, then a new plan had to be made, quickly.IMO, the culprit(s) assumed the plan would play out just as the RN stated.
I agree. It's not a staged scene for the police to see. The story it tells, if any, is I (we) killed her and threw the body along with as much evidence as we could gather into the WC. Not the story you want to tell the police.The fact that other forensic material was put in with the body leads me to believe it was all put there to keep it hidden from sight during the type of canvassing of the house that PR said she did - check JR's room before screaming for JR's help.
If they were making a sweep of the home JR could volunteer to check the basement while PR checked elsewhere. She'd have no reason to disbelieve JR when he said she's not in the basement.With PR convinced she had been kidnapped, she would have looked no further within the home - becoming distraught and probably trusting JR to take care of everything from that time forward.
Agreed.The culprit(s) knew that the body would have to be removed from the house BEFORE police could be called, and EXPECTED that to be able to happen.
I tend to think this was thought up in the minutes between the 911 call and the arrival of the police.I believe the backup plan to that was to be able to immediately throw blame for her murder onto someone in the "inner circle" -"it has to be an inside job".
I'm still on the fence about this. I do see the possibility that JR set PR up. Whether he'd have let her take the fall or not I can't say, but with him ruled out by handwriting "experts" and PR the focus of attention, she pretty much had to comply with Team R's instructions.And that the culprit(s) took some steps in creating "funny little clues" that would have helped point to a prime suspect in the inner circle. And sticking my neck out, I'll go so far as to say: right down to trying to use a recognizable handwriting pattern. Otherwise the RN could have been prepared using another technique.
Because there could have been no plan to dump the body after the 911 call. It had to be done prior to calling the police.
Yep, yep!
I just had another look at the ransom note, I don't know if this has come up before but as I read it I felt a change in writer at the end in both style and maybe even handwriting(starting with "Don't try to grow a brain John"). For the first 2 pages the author never uses the name John, then in this last bit it's used in 3 out of 5 sentences. This "voice" reads more frantic to me than the rest of the letter.
OR, the killer/stagger made rational decisions but couldn't control every act of non-involved family members. His plan may have been partially carried out, then foiled. That is the key insight of Doc's theory, that we are not looking at the scene as it was meant to be seen.
that we are not looking at the scene as it was meant to be seen.
IMO, once the police were called, the killer(s)/stager(s) had to anticipate the body would be found. Despite "tomorrow" being logically the 27th, there was no chance that police were leaving, nor that the body wouldn't be found. I think "tomorrow" buys JR time, and is meant to deceive PR, not the police.
I'm not sure why PR would be reluctant to dump the body. If she was in on the killing, she'd rather dump the body than go to prison. If she came into the plot later, as a co-conspirator in a cover-up, she'd know dumping the body was necessary given the kidnap scenario. She'd also know for certain that she and JR would be prime suspects once the body was found. In for a penny, in for a pound. I don't see PR being involved to any degree without agreeing that the body would be dumped. Besides, as I've pointed out on these boards before, Christians take a dimmer view of murder than improper burial. Once one has committed the ultimate sin, why worry about proper burial?
Chrishope,
Possibly a better description is decisions consistent with the RDI theory being developed.
Placing a ransom note on the stairs and returning to bed seems to me to be questionable when you are attempting to control events.
The 911 call could have been avoided if JR had found the ransom note, who could say otherwise?
Then there is BR's voice in the background on the 911 call, how does that fit into the theory?
Not certain how I must view things, but its the evidence that does not quite match the theory that is interesting?
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Hi UK - IMHO, JR would have placed the ransom note on the steps because he needed to make into the shower before Patsy awakened. Time was pressing in.
PR said when she awakened, JR was in the shower, and this would be in keeping with the theory. JR might have thought he'd get out of the shower in time to be right behind Patsy going downstairs and indeed, they could have both come upon the note, with JR being in charge and reading through, then simply convincing PR not to call police. Maybe PR being ahead of JR was another glitch in the plan?
Putting the note on the steps also would have been in keeping with the backup plan to make it look like an "inside job", since someone in the inner circle would have been most likely to know the R's routinely used that staircase.
With PR going bonkers and running around the kids' bedroom level, screaming for JR, it always was unbelievable that BR was said to be asleep, and once the R's admitted he was awake, it makes perfect sense that he would have been right on their heels as the call was being made, with JR finally arriving into the kitchen and PR already on the phone. What she told the 911 operator would have certainly prompted BR to ask "what did you find - what should I do?" And, that scenario sure would have accounted for JR being brash with BR in sniping, "We are not talking to you!", when he would have plenty to say to PR after she had just called police when she shouldn't have.
In all the questioning of the R's, I would have thought that PR would have checked to see if JB was in BR's room. It was mentioned , that at times she would go and crawl in bed with BR.
The fact that she did not check there indicates, to me, that she knew where JB was. Then watching what was going on, with her fingers splayed over her face, seems like she was checking to see if BPD believed the tale they concocted.
Then there was the slip JR made about all the people being there at 3:00. AM. Something fishy there! I firmly believe all 3 were involved, and it began with BR.
In all the questioning of the R's, I would have thought that PR would have checked to see if JB was in BR's room. It was mentioned , that at times she would go and crawl in bed with BR.
The fact that she did not check there indicates, to me, that she knew where JB was. Then watching what was going on, with her fingers splayed over her face, seems like she was checking to see if BPD believed the tale they concocted.
Then there was the slip JR made about all the people being there at 3:00. AM. Something fishy there! I firmly believe all 3 were involved, and it began with BR.
midwest mama,
You could be correct in what you write, some events and behaviour can be interpreted to present it as JDI.
I'm a little skeptical since its an interpretation built on a lot of qualified assumptions, i.e. Patsy dialled 911.
Assuming you have a theory that matches the forensic evidence, why do you think Kolar goes for BR and ST for Patsy, but not JR, when patently they know all the stuff we dont, you would think JR should be at the front of the suspect list?
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Chrishope,
Possibly a better description is decisions consistent with the RDI theory being developed.
Placing a ransom note on the stairs and returning to bed seems to me to be questionable when you are attempting to control events.
The 911 call could have been avoided if JR had found the ransom note, who could say otherwise?
Then there is BR's voice in the background on the 911 call, how does that fit into the theory?
MWM has answered this, and probably better than I can do. But I'll throw in my 2 cents.
I think that's a fair criticism of the theory. It may well have been better if JR had found the note. But he'd have to let PR read it. So maybe the net result is no different? I doubt he'd want BR to find it, so it was either him or PR. There may have been family dynamics that we don't know about. Maybe JR habitually takes shower in the morning and PR habitually gets up at that time and makes him breakfast, or at least coffee? JR would want everything as "normal" as possible since things were going to become very abnormal. Maybe it would have been suspicious if he'd stayed up - leading PR to wonder how long he'd been up?Placing a ransom note on the stairs and returning to bed seems to me to be questionable when you are attempting to control events.
Possibly. It's hard to say whether the 911 call could have been avoided just by JR finding it. PR would still want to read it, at least partially. Unless JR was going to physically control her at all times there's really no way to prevent a 911 call. But I agree, had JR found it and read it aloud to PR, emphasizing the threats, maybe she could have been convinced not to call 911. Then again, maybe not. Would you trust your spouse to handle a kidnapping case or would you prefer the FBI got involved? If you see this as a weakness of the theory, that's fine with me. I don't pretend any theory is free of doubt (even if I speak, sometimes, as though there is no doubt) or that any theory ties up every possible loose end or answers every possible objection.The 911 call could have been avoided if JR had found the ransom note, who could say otherwise?
The theory doesn't depend on BR not being up at the time of the 911 call, or having gotten up minutes before because PR is running around shouting and carrying on. A lie about him being asleep doesn't mean he was a party to the coverup, nor does it mean he did it. Of course if BR had been up for hours then the theory is wrong, but we don't know how long BR had been up.Then there is BR's voice in the background on the 911 call, how does that fit into the theory?
Not sure what you mean here.Not certain how I must view things, but its the evidence that does not quite match the theory that is interesting?
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I know we have differing views on whether or not he/she/they intended to dump her elsewhere. I've always believed that he did. The RN made no sense to me if they were leaving her to be found in the house. Them thinking that LE would leave and come back on the 27th didn't make sense to me either. I always thought PR called 911 without reading the entire note, or against JR's urging her not to, or without his initial knowledge.
I've begun to see another possibility though. The RN is full of warnings not to talk to LE or JB would be killed. It also says that they will be under constant observation. Does anyone think it's possible that they put the warnings in the RN to provide an excuse for why she was found in the house? Could they have been implying that the killer/kidnapper was still in the house that morning, heard her call 911, killed JB and then left through the broken window before LE arrived? Perhaps the suitcase was left under the window to imply that that's how she would have been taken out of the house had the kidnapping been successful?
It's the only way that the RN and JB being found in the house makes any sense to me at all unless the original plan was to dump JB elsewhere, and PR messed it up with the call.