Happenings of December 26

  • #761
It is a known fact that there is a connection to pedophilia and kiddie 🤬🤬🤬🤬 with the Barbie symbol. I have no idea about the usage, but even the FBI has put out warnings about pedophiles possibly using Barbie in engaging with children. Even in 1996 Barbie might have been on the radar as a pedophile tool, and it would not surprise me at all that JR would have known about the connection, since he had many business dealings and military service in leading cities openly noted for those activities.

Sorry to ask you to spell it out. Are you saying pedophiles used Barbie dolls to entice kids? Or are you saying it's sort of their semi-secret symbol to say they have some sexual fascination with kids?

This is all foreign to me b/c we discourage our kids from Barbie's, princesses, and similar toys. I wouldn't know what to think if someone asked me what I thought of a Barbie nightgown.

Can you explain a scenario that you make JR say "perverted"?
 
  • #762
In other words: Investigator Lou Smit asked JR for his thoughts on the pink nightgown. JR replied "perverted".

What does that mean? I know what perverted means, but I always think of practices, not individual objects, as being perverted. Even if someone showed me a bizarre sex toy and asked what I thought of it, I wouldn't say perverted b/c only practices can be perverted.

Is the Pink Nightgown the same as the Barbie Nightgown? Sorry I'm not up on this basic fact, but was she found wearing this nightgown?

I think you're saying JR was just pushing the idea of perversion in a ham-handed way b/c he wanted the police to think "some pervert", i.e. an unknown intruder, was responsible. I agree.

The pink nightgown was a barbie nightgown. It was found in the wine cellar with JB on the blanket.
No idea on why JR would think of a Barbie nightgown as perverted- It's just a kids character nightgown.
 
  • #763
Sorry to ask you to spell it out. Are you saying pedophiles used Barbie dolls to entice kids? Or are you saying it's sort of their semi-secret symbol to say they have some sexual fascination with kids?

This is all foreign to me b/c we discourage our kids from Barbie's, princesses, and similar toys. I wouldn't know what to think if someone asked me what I thought of a Barbie nightgown.

Can you explain a scenario that you make JR say "perverted"?

I think she means like its some sort of secret way pedophiles identify each other.
A few years ago I was looking for a "My Pretty Pony" for a life long friend. ( long boring teenage inside joke) so I googled it. I clicked a link that took me somewhere really scary and well very disturbing. I reported it to the FBI.

I know for a bit "the candy man" was being used...



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  • #764
If you follow otg's link above (re doll or no doll), you can see a photo of the doll at the crime scene. To me, its a doll alright-- and in the discussion between posters, its pointed out that part of the inventory of whats found at the crime scene has been blacked out, redacted...

To me the proportions of the doll exclude it as being a Barbie doll. So technically Everyone is still correct. :)
 
  • #765
If you follow otg's link above (re doll or no doll), you can see a photo of the doll at the crime scene. To me, its a doll alright-- and in the discussion between posters, its pointed out that part of the inventory of whats found at the crime scene has been blacked out, redacted...

To me the proportions of the doll exclude it as being a Barbie doll. So technically Everyone is still correct. :)

I also recall seeing photos of the wine cellar with a boxed doll that looks like the 1996 Holiday Barbie in a cellophane window box.
 
  • #766
Sorry to ask you to spell it out. Are you saying pedophiles used Barbie dolls to entice kids? Or are you saying it's sort of their semi-secret symbol to say they have some sexual fascination with kids?

This is all foreign to me b/c we discourage our kids from Barbie's, princesses, and similar toys. I wouldn't know what to think if someone asked me what I thought of a Barbie nightgown.

Can you explain a scenario that you make JR say "perverted"?

The FBI warned against the Barbie connection....and IMO, they watch it closely because of the symbol. Yes, and yes to the BBM.

The fact that JR responded to Smit with the word "perverted" is very telling to me. It was said JB's favorite nightgown was her Barbie gown, and to add something else to think about, Aunt Pam said she always took it on pageant trips with her. Plenty of assumptions out there about the connection of pedophiles to pageants. One of the first connections the R's tried to make for an IDI theory is to a pedophile perhaps having come into contact with JB during a pageant. They even went as far as to implicate another entrant's father who was conversing with JB as a possible suspect.
 
  • #767
When JR was shown a crime photo of the white blanket in situ on the winecellar floor- the pink Barbie nightie was pointed out to him by LE. He replied by saying "that wasn't supposed to be there". The dead child in the white blanket wasn't supposed to be there either, was she?
 
  • #768
"Mike Bynum[FONT=Arial,Helvetica], close personal friend of Patsy and John Ramsey (1, 2) and a founding partner of the law firm Chrisman, Bynum & Johnson. He specializes in business law. Bynum is an ex-prosecutor who used to work for Hunter (23), and is said to have advised the Ramseys to "lawyer up" shortly after the murder. He is responsible for choosing the politically connected firm of Haddon (16), Morgan (16) & Foreman (5). Although not an official part of the Ramsey defense team, Bynum has hosted meetings in his law office between them, the BPD, and the DA's team. There are also rumors that at least two members of his law firm are working as part of the Ramsey defense team, although they have not been publicly acknowledged as such. Bynum is a business partner of "Pasta" Jay Elowsky (14), along with John Ramsey and Lowell Elowsky (18). His law partner, John Stavely (22), is "Pasta" Jay's attorney and Stavely represented Elowsky in court during his baseball bat and DUI incidents.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Another partner is Byron Chrisman (29), who financed construction of the building in which the JonBenét Ramsey Children's Foundation Office is said to be located."[/FONT]
Source: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/6d/6deg.html

Upon returning to work in downtown Boulder, in an office building that faced JonBenet's school, JR received a phone call on his personal phone line at Access Graphics from Colorado's Lieutenant Governor's office. That fact is verifiable via the limited phone records LE received, according to ST.
 
  • #769
BBM & OMO

cynic, if it is unsettling that I have bolded certain phrases of your post from The Wine Cellar thread, I apologize.

At the FerniesÂ’, Pam and Kristine found that Patsy was overdosing on Valium. SheÂ’d been taking the powerful tranquilizer every few hours and had probably lost track of the amount. Pam, a former registered nurse, touched PatsyÂ’s skin and realized she was dehydrated. She brought Patsy some water and made her drink it.

Later that afternoon, Kristine and Pam sat on either side of Patsy, holding her hands. “You know,” Patsy said quietly to Pam, as if she were telling someone for the first time, “they’ve killed my baby.” Pam noticed that Patsy used the word they.

“You need to brush your hair,” Pam told her. “You need to lie down a little bit.” But Patsy stood up to greet each new person who arrived, and as she did, tears streamed down her face. These friends, Pam observed, were entirely different from the people she and Patsy knew in common—their pageant friends. The people visiting her here were strangers to Pam. Hours later, Patsy finally took Pam’s advice and lay down in the Fernies’ bedroom.

Kristine went to the bathroom to get a cool washcloth for Patsy’s forehead. While she was gone, Patsy reached up and touched Pam’s face. “Couldn’t you fix this for me?” she asked. Pam thought she was delirious. It was as if Patsy were asking her to fix a ripped seam. “Patsy said something like, ‘We didn’t mean for that to happen,’” Pam would say later.

After Patsy napped for almost an hour, Pam took her into the shower and washed her hair. Patsy was unable even to dry herself, and Pam wrapped a towel around her. Later, Pam couldn’t say why, but she remembered feeling as if Patsy knew who killed JonBenét but was afraid to say.

Kristine, a former pageant winner, had been JonBenét’s role model. Patsy in turn had become one for Kristine and had been planning to groom the girl for the Miss America pageant. That afternoon Patsy asked Kristine, “Why couldn’t she have grown up? All Jonnie B ever wanted was to win a crown like yours.”
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller



Patsy was overdosing on Valium. TY, cynic.


There was another PR quote discussed recently at WS when she states something about this happening to another child...my apologies for not recalling the exact words of that particular PR quote, att.

Originally Posted by Toltec View Post
According to Steve Thomas, the turtleneck was wet...and balled up in JonBenet's bathroom counter.

What raised a red flag to me is when Patsy was shown a picture of the red turtleneck and she quickly changes the subject to a crown found on the counter. She breaks down crying...in essence to get off the subject of the turtleneck.

Yes, Patsy was excellent at changing the topic and leading away from discovery of the truth. The Rs were clever, too, and so were their hired lawyers. PR displayed tears when seeing the CS photo of JBRs red turtleneck shirt but she speaks about a crown instead.

If JonBenet refused to wear the red turtleneck shirt to the White's home for the dinner party on Dec. 25, bc she desired to wear the white shirt with the star on it, then, why is the red turtleneck shirt JBR refused to wear found wet and rolled up into a ball and tossed on JBRs bathroom counter on Dec. 26? The key word being wet.

Patsy also claimed to have stopped sometime after she awoke early on the morning of Dec. 26, to mess around on the second floor, with a possible stain on the red jumpsuit JBR had worn while performing in public for one of the last times prior to Christmas 2006.

From the angle of evidence, what do these two events involving the stained jumpsuit and wet turtleneck tell us about Patsy stopping on the second floor and tending to JBRs clothing before noticing JBRs bedroom door was closed, all of the way closed,. Yet Patsy proceeds down the spiral staircase until she discovers the RN, reads a few lines of the RN but doesn't touch it. Instead, she states that she turned and bounded back up the stairs to the second floor.

If, in fact, this sequence is true, those two red clothing items were, for sure, not making the trip celebrating Christmas in Charlevoix.

Perhaps the red turtleneck had a stain that was soaked in water in the bathroom sink overnight on Dec. 25, until PR rinsed it, and wringed the excess water out before tossing the balled up turtleneck onto JBRs bathroom's countertop on Dec. 26.

In the beginning of the investigation, it was the red turtleneck top that Patsy states that her daughter went to bed wearing on the night of Dec. 25.

Makes sense to me since JBR would already be wearing a holiday appropriate, warm, top that would not require removing before boarding the jet in the morning.

Easily she could add a heavier coat, and she had one in their Jaq and/or perhaps a festive sweater, and she had one on her bed, grab a skirt and she would be set to be warm and comfortable for traveling during the over four hour long flight from Boulder until they would finally land in Charlevoix.

Only Patsy backtracks a short while later, by stating, JBR was not wearing the red turtleneck to bed on Dec. 25. Her memory has changed.

This new and improved version, in fact, is that JBR had gone to bed while wearing the same white shirt she'd worn to the White's.

You know where the white shirt was on Dec. 26.

JBR had refused to wear the red turtleneck, according to her mother, over to the White's home. So, why was it wet?


This question really pertains to Dec. 25. How large was the White's back lawn for Burke to have been shocked by an electrical fence on this particular day of Christmas while outdoors at the White's party?

Did the White's have dogs as pets that were sometimes in their backyard and kept secured by an [invisible] electric fence that shocked Burke?

According to google earth, the White's Comanche Street home is not situated on a large lot at all. It is a brief six min. drive to the Rs 755 15th Street home.

The White's continue to maintain both Boulder properties including their property two doors down from the Rs original Boulder address @ 755 15th Street.

BR gets electrically shocked on Dec. 25.

Hmmm...
 
  • #770
BBM & OMO

cynic, if it is unsettling that I have bolded certain phrases of your post from The Wine Cellar thread, I apologize.





Patsy was overdosing on Valium. TY, cynic.


There was another PR quote discussed recently at WS when she states something about this happening to another child...my apologies for not recalling the exact words of that particular PR quote, att.



Yes, Patsy was excellent at changing the topic and leading away from discovery of the truth. The Rs were clever, too, and so were their hired lawyers. PR displayed tears when seeing the CS photo of JBRs red turtleneck shirt but she speaks about a crown instead.

If JonBenet refused to wear the red turtleneck shirt to the White's home for the dinner party on Dec. 25, bc she desired to wear the white shirt with the star on it, then, why is the red turtleneck shirt JBR refused to wear found wet and rolled up into a ball and tossed on JBRs bathroom counter on Dec. 26? The key word being wet.

Patsy also claimed to have stopped sometime after she awoke early on the morning of Dec. 26, to mess around on the second floor, with a possible stain on the red jumpsuit JBR had worn while performing in public for one of the last times prior to Christmas 2006.

From the angle of evidence, what do these two events involving the stained jumpsuit and wet turtleneck tell us about Patsy stopping on the second floor and tending to JBRs clothing before noticing JBRs bedroom door was closed, all of the way closed,. Yet Patsy proceeds down the spiral staircase until she discovers the RN, reads a few lines of the RN but doesn't touch it. Instead, she states that she turned and bounded back up the stairs to the second floor.

If, in fact, this sequence is true, those two red clothing items were, for sure, not making the trip celebrating Christmas in Charlevoix.

Perhaps the red turtleneck had a stain that was soaked in water in the bathroom sink overnight on Dec. 25, until PR rinsed it, and wringed the excess water out before tossing the balled up turtleneck onto JBRs bathroom's countertop on Dec. 26.

In the beginning of the investigation, it was the red turtleneck top that Patsy states that her daughter went to bed wearing on the night of Dec. 25.

Makes sense to me since JBR would already be wearing a holiday appropriate, warm, top that would not require removing before boarding the jet in the morning.

Easily she could add a heavier coat, and she had one in their Jaq and/or perhaps a festive sweater, and she had one on her bed, grab a skirt and she would be set to be warm and comfortable for traveling during the over four hour long flight from Boulder until they would finally land in Charlevoix.

Only Patsy backtracks a short while later, by stating, JBR was not wearing the red turtleneck to bed on Dec. 25. Her memory has changed.

This new and improved version, in fact, is that JBR had gone to bed while wearing the same white shirt she'd worn to the White's.

You know where the white shirt was on Dec. 26.

JBR had refused to wear the red turtleneck, according to her mother, over to the White's home. So, why was it wet?


This question really pertains to Dec. 25. How large was the White's back lawn for Burke to have been shocked by an electrical fence on this particular day of Christmas while outdoors at the White's party?

Did the White's have dogs as pets that were sometimes in their backyard and kept secured by an [invisible] electric fence that shocked Burke?

According to google earth, the White's Comanche Street home is not situated on a large lot at all. It is a brief six min. drive to the Rs 755 15th Street home.

The White's continue to maintain both Boulder properties including their property two doors down from the Rs original Boulder address @ 755 15th Street.

BR gets electrically shocked on Dec. 25.

Hmmm...

This might be a stupid question...What are you getting at?
 
  • #771
When JR was shown a crime photo of the white blanket in situ on the winecellar floor- the pink Barbie nightie was pointed out to him by LE. He replied by saying "that wasn't supposed to be there". The dead child in the white blanket wasn't supposed to be there either, was she?

DeeDee249,
Precisely, and on which grounds is JR claiming prescience over other investigators?

IMO this is the foundation for the IDI pedophile theories ...
 
  • #772
otg,
More or less. I am allowing for a digital sexual assault with the outside possibility that the paintbrush was not used to assault JonBenet internally.

But I do think that the paintbrush was used to stage an internal injury with the intent on masking the prior acute injury and possibly any chronic abuse.

Coroner Meyer only ever suggested that there was one sexual assault, since by definition Digital Penetration is such an assault from which Sexual Contact must be inferred.

The problem lies with the splinter about which Coroner was deliberately evasive describing it as birefringent material suggesting he has an opinion on this subject.

That opinion might coincide with the use of the paintbrush or he might opine that the digit was the more likely source.

Response:
This "staging within staging " is a big part of the reason I believe P & J used the paintbrush as a means to cover up previous abuse, Burke would not know enough about anatomy and physiology to figure how important that issue was.
 
  • #773
otg,
More or less. I am allowing for a digital sexual assault with the outside possibility that the paintbrush was not used to assault JonBenet internally.

But I do think that the paintbrush was used to stage an internal injury with the intent on masking the prior acute injury and possibly any chronic abuse.

Coroner Meyer only ever suggested that there was one sexual assault, since by definition Digital Penetration is such an assault from which Sexual Contact must be inferred.

The problem lies with the splinter about which Coroner was deliberately evasive describing it as birefringent material suggesting he has an opinion on this subject.

That opinion might coincide with the use of the paintbrush or he might opine that the digit was the more likely source.

Response:
This "staging within staging " is a big part of the reason I believe P & J used the paintbrush as a means to cover up previous abuse, Burke would not know enough about anatomy and physiology to figure how important that issue was.

I though Mayer told LE he felt there had been prior sexual contact- Some of her vaginal bruising was in the healing stage- they had been inflicted prior to that night.
As for the "birefringent" material- are we so sure that Mayer meant the wood splinters? It has been suggested that the birefringent material could have been talc (such as might be found on a latex glove) or even paint chips from breaking the paintbrush (which could have been inserted with the finger that broke the brush, not necessarily the paintbrush itself). I know that cellulose was noted in her vagina- and that certainly seems like it would be splinters. However, once again they could have been carried in on a finger and not the brush. There has been so much speculation about that broken brush- with some feeling that the missing piece of the brush itself was found in her vagina. I know that LE claims to have not released all the evidence, but this would be a BIG piece of the evidence and I can't believe it could have been kept under wraps all this time. Kolar has not mentioned the paintbrush as being found there, nor as far as I know, that there is certainty that the brush itself caused the injuries. And he has also said that there is nothing unknown that would change the opinions (his or ours I suppose) on what he believes occurred. I can see how staging might include something to hide the sexual assault, but I think her internal vaginal injuries would show more lacerations, cuts, etc if the sharp splintery edges of the brush had been used to penetrate her.
 
  • #774
I though Mayer told LE he felt there had been prior sexual contact- Some of her vaginal bruising was in the healing stage- they had been inflicted prior to that night.
As for the "birefringent" material- are we so sure that Mayer meant the wood splinters? It has been suggested that the birefringent material could have been talc (such as might be found on a latex glove) or even paint chips from breaking the paintbrush (which could have been inserted with the finger that broke the brush, not necessarily the paintbrush itself). I know that cellulose was noted in her vagina- and that certainly seems like it would be splinters. However, once again they could have been carried in on a finger and not the brush. There has been so much speculation about that broken brush- with some feeling that the missing piece of the brush itself was found in her vagina. I know that LE claims to have not released all the evidence, but this would be a BIG piece of the evidence and I can't believe it could have been kept under wraps all this time. Kolar has not mentioned the paintbrush as being found there, nor as far as I know, that there is certainty that the brush itself caused the injuries. And he has also said that there is nothing unknown that would change the opinions (his or ours I suppose) on what he believes occurred. I can see how staging might include something to hide the sexual assault, but I think her internal vaginal injuries would show more lacerations, cuts, etc if the sharp splintery edges of the brush had been used to penetrate her.

BBM

Very good point. I have to agree. So, if the digital assault carried in particles from the broken paintbrush, does it make sense that broken piece of the paintbrush was most likely tied into the ligature PRIOR to the digital penetration?

And if the brush stick was tied into the ligature after the ligature was tightened, which seems to be indicated by the way JB's hair was caught up in the stick knotting, then can we think this?:
1. ligature applied to JB's neck and pulled tight with her in a face down, unconscious position as indicated by frontal urine stains on longjohns, and hair draped forward caught in the necklace chain which was pulled up by the ligature, with urine stains found on carpet by paint tote.
2. paintbrush removed from tray (possibly by perp wearing latex gloves), broken, and tied into end of ligature - to give appearance of pull handle?
3. digital penetration of vagina after stick was tied? By then, JB would have most likely expired, which would explain why there was very little blood expelled vaginally onto the panties.
 
  • #775
BBM

Very good point. I have to agree. So, if the digital assault carried in particles from the broken paintbrush, does it make sense that broken piece of the paintbrush was most likely tied into the ligature PRIOR to the digital penetration?

And if the brush stick was tied into the ligature after the ligature was tightened, which seems to be indicated by the way JB's hair was caught up in the stick knotting, then can we think this?:
1. ligature applied to JB's neck and pulled tight with her in a face down, unconscious position as indicated by frontal urine stains on longjohns, and hair draped forward caught in the necklace chain which was pulled up by the ligature, with urine stains found on carpet by paint tote.
2. paintbrush removed from tray (possibly by perp wearing latex gloves), broken, and tied into end of ligature - to give appearance of pull handle?
3. digital penetration of vagina after stick was tied? By then, JB would have most likely expired, which would explain why there was very little blood expelled vaginally onto the panties.

Except that we know there was blood wiped off of her thighs. The sexual assault must have occurred before death, although hopefully after she was already unconscious from the head blow.
 
  • #776
Except that we know there was blood wiped off of her thighs. The sexual assault must have occurred before death, although hopefully after she was already unconscious from the head blow.

OK, yes, which means there could have also been a sexual encounter with a clean up prior to one involving digital penetration after she was near death.

The wipe down and clean up of her vaginal and thigh area would have happened prior to the redressing. It stands to reason the redressing would have occurred prior to her releasing the urine found on the front of her longjohns which would have accounted for her being face down next to the paint tray when the ligature was applied.

But there was a recovered blood sample in her panties, and it's been discussed before that releasing urine with the size 12's on under the longjohns should have affected the report on the condition of the size 12's in the AR as well as affecting the blood spot sample.

It's as if the lj's were put on after the cleanup WITHOUT the size 12's on, then the ligature applied, the release of urine as she expired, the lj's taken down or off again, the digital assault, the size 12's put on, and the wet lj's put on over them....maybe enough time later that they had time to dry out?
Could JB's body have been moved around with her just in the white shirt and size 12's, then the lj's added when the body was getting wrapped in the blanket?
 
  • #777
OK, yes, which means there could have also been a sexual encounter with a clean up prior to one involving digital penetration after she was near death.

The wipe down and clean up of her vaginal and thigh area would have happened prior to the redressing. It stands to reason the redressing would have occurred prior to her releasing the urine found on the front of her longjohns which would have accounted for her being face down next to the paint tray when the ligature was applied.

But there was a recovered blood sample in her panties, and it's been discussed before that releasing urine with the size 12's on under the longjohns should have affected the report on the condition of the size 12's in the AR as well as affecting the blood spot sample.

It's as if the lj's were put on after the cleanup WITHOUT the size 12's on, then the ligature applied, the release of urine as she expired, the lj's taken down or off again, the digital assault, the size 12's put on, and the wet lj's put on over them....maybe enough time later that they had time to dry out?
Could JB's body have been moved around with her just in the white shirt and size 12's, then the lj's added when the body was getting wrapped in the blanket?

The body couldn't have been moved around after livor began, but there was a small window before livor settled the pattern and before rigor mortis began to set where she could have certainly had bottoms pulled up or down and had panties pulled up or down. In either case she'd have likely been lying on her back anyway.
 
  • #778
  • #779
If we go with the stun gun theory and accept that being stunned could have caused her bladder to void, then we have:

1) victim stunned; bladder empties
2) killer pulls down leggings and panties
3) killer molests victim
4) killer wipes victim
5) killer pulls up panties

The blood drips onto the panties either from victim, or from object used for penetration at step 3, or step 4, or step 5
...

AK
 
  • #780
If we go with the stun gun theory and accept that being stunned could have caused her bladder to void, then we have:

1)victim stunned; bladder empties
2)killer pulls down leggings and panties
3)killer molests victim
4)killer wipes victim
5)killer pulls up panties

The blood drips onto the panties either from victim, or from object used for penetration at step 3, or step 4, or step 5
...

AK


Who would use a stun gun?




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