Happenings of December 26

[Mama2JML]

(bbm)
DD, I agree with all you said (with only one exception). There is no doubt in my mind at this point that JonBenet was molested in the days/weeks/(maybe) months prior to her death. The only exception I would add to your reasons is one more reason for some to resist the idea. I do believe some people have a hard time accepting the reality of what that prior molestation means. It means that someone
-- most likely a family member -- was responsible for it, regardless of who is responsible for her death. And that's a hard pill to swallow. We all know it happens, but that doesn't make it any easier to accept it as fact when it means thinking the worst of someone we've seen on TV acting like a caring, "nice" person. It means that someone in a position of trust betrayed that trust. I understand that resistance, and I think there are still some posters who can't get past that hurdle. But then, I know that the reality is also that some DO simply try to be adversarial.

BBM

According to RAINN.org:

"In 1995, local child protection service agencies identified 126,000 children who were victims of either substantiated or indicated sexual abuse.5

Of these,

75% were girls.
Nearly 30% of child victims were between the age of 4 and 7.
93% of juvenile sexual assault victims know their attacker.6

34.2% of attackers were family members.
58.7% were acquaintances.
Only 7% of the perpetrators were strangers to the victim."​

​

This data suggests "most likely" NOT "a family member." More data exists, surely. I'll keep looking...

 

[UKGuy]

I absolutely have no "preferred sequence" when it comes to the sexual assault of JB the night she was killed. Just simply trying to make sense of how the size 12's could have been relatively free of as much urine stain residue as the l longjohns which were bearing the frontal urine stains. At least I have been under the impression that because the blood spots on the panties were relatively small and fully processed for DNA, the bloodspots were not diluted or rendered unusable for testing because of urine being released upon them. And, unless I'm wrong, it was not made clear that the panties were also urine stained, along with the longjohns.

If JB was sexually assaulted and her body wiped down, what I wonder is if the penetration that was assumed to be digital, could have been a penetration by the paintbrush with the intentional gesture of leaving the impression that she suffered a vicious perverted attack by the same instrument that a wacko also used as a ligature handle when he strangled her. The penetration believed to be sufficient to hide any former actual sexual molestation which led to her receiving the head blow.

In other words, maybe the molester not only thought a ligature strangulation would cover for the head blow as the cause of death, but that an attack with the paintbrush would be considered the cause of any discovered sexual activity. Maybe after thinking about it for while, the killer worried that cleaning up well from the real molestation might not be sufficient enough to hide it, so it would be best to stage an attack which could be considered part of the crime?

midwest mama,
This is more or less what I think took place. I doubt there was any master plan, simply a series of ad hoc changes and amendments?

With Patsy's fibers found in the ligature knotting, lets assume Patsy brought JonBenet down to the basement. Spotting the paint-tote the idea of using the paintbrush urges Patsy to place JonBenet down on the carpet, where she proceeds to break the paintbrush in half and attach it to the ligature tying the knot in place. Doing this obscures any prior neck injuries.

As a minimal explanation for the staging, i.e. what Patsy was attempting to create, was a non-sexual but violent death.

So JonBenet is dressed in clean underwear, and the longjohns then wrapped in a blanket.

So left in the wine-cellar, anyone discovering JonBenet would find her more or less in accord with an abduction and visibly killed by ligature strangulation.

The sexual assault was intended to be hidden from view, why the R's decided on this is open to speculation?

1996-12-27: Search Warrant 755 15 Street, Boulder, Colorado, excerpt

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed the Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in that area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's pubic area having been wiped by a cloth.

Why and when you think she was wiped will inform your theory. Although the sexual assault might have been hidden from public view the R's knew a post mortem would reveal an acute assault. So it would be consistent with the ligature staging to use the remaining missing piece of paintbrush handle to mask the acute assault?

Coroner Meyer cited Digital Penetration and Sexual Contact i.e. not cleaning or some other behaviour, he interprets what he sees as an acute sexual assault!

Note Coroner Meyer cited Digital Penetration and not penetration by a foreign object, he is explicitly suggesting a human finger.

So it could be that the missing piece of paintbrush was never used to assault JonBenet and that the R's considered wiping her down and redressing her in the size-12's and longjohns was sufficient to hide her acute sexual assault, and that they would behave much as they did once interviewed on this topic?

.

 

[DeDee]

This might be a stupid question...What are you getting at?

Quite frankly, I was hoping that perhaps someone would realize the red turtleneck belonging to JonBenet was never wet, even though in STs book he uses the red turtleneck as a catalyst for Patsy's bedwetting rage.

From the deposition with Steve Thomas on Sept. 21, 2001:

14 Q. Did anybody tell you that they
15 found the red turtleneck and that it was wet?
16 A. No, this is what I am surmising
17 in the hypothesis.
18 Q. Was the red turtleneck taken into
19 evidence?
20 A. I certainly believe it was.
21 Q. Did it have any type of urine
22 stain on it?
23 A. Not that I'm aware of. I never
24 have looked at it personally.
25 Q. Where did you get the statement

358

1 that it got wet; did you just manufacture
2 that out of whole cloth?
3 A. No, I'm suggesting that that was a
4 reasonable explanation for the final resting
5 place of this red turtleneck of which she may
6 have indeed worn home.
7 Q. But you had no evidence to support
8 that statement about the turtleneck being wet,
9 true?
10 A. No, I don't know that it was
11 urine stained.
12 Q. Or wet?
13 A. Or wet.

 

[UKGuy]

Quite frankly, I was hoping that perhaps someone would realize the red turtleneck belonging to JonBenet was never wet, even though in STs book he uses the red turtleneck as a catalyst for Patsy's bedwetting rage.

From the deposition with Steve Thomas on Sept. 21, 2001:

14 Q. Did anybody tell you that they
15 found the red turtleneck and that it was wet?
16 A. No, this is what I am surmising
17 in the hypothesis.
18 Q. Was the red turtleneck taken into
19 evidence?
20 A. I certainly believe it was.
21 Q. Did it have any type of urine
22 stain on it?
23 A. Not that I'm aware of. I never
24 have looked at it personally.
25 Q. Where did you get the statement

358

1 that it got wet; did you just manufacture
2 that out of whole cloth?
3 A. No, I'm suggesting that that was a
4 reasonable explanation for the final resting
5 place of this red turtleneck of which she may
6 have indeed worn home.
7 Q. But you had no evidence to support
8 that statement about the turtleneck being wet,
9 true?
10 A. No, I don't know that it was
11 urine stained.
12 Q. Or wet?
13 A. Or wet.

DeDee,
IMO ST was sensitive to the possibility of litigation, so his book similar to Kolar's drops hints and reveals forensic evidence whilst promoting a particular theory, i.e. PDI.

If you lean towards a conspiracy theory then the above approach should lend more credence to a JDI theory?


.

 

[DeDee]

DeDee,
IMO ST was sensitive to the possibility of litigation, so his book similar to Kolar's drops hints and reveals forensic evidence whilst promoting a particular theory, i.e. PDI.

If you lean towards a conspiracy theory then the above approach should lend more credence to a JDI theory?


.

http://www.forstevethomas.com/civilsuitpt1.htm

Steve Thomas was sued by the Ramsey's. ST published his book in Nov. 2000. The Ramsey's filed the libel lawsuit in March 2001.

This fine law enforcement officer holds a carpenter's hammer now instead of an officer's badge. Steve loved police work. There is no doubt, in my mind, that he put his heart into the case. He rarely saw his new bride. He was in Atlanta when his father was hospitalized with a serious heart condition yet he remained in Atlanta working on the investigation. Steve was dedicated to his work in law enforcement.

I simply do not agree with his hypothesis that Patsy flew into a bedwetting rage on Christmas night and accidentally, yet fatally, wounded her daughter over wet bed linens or clothing apparel. The murder goes much deeper than that.

Even though I am not a JDI, and not agreeable with a conspiracy to commit the murder, I also do not agree that ST should have exonerated John Ramsey on national television. I was stunned that evening, long ago, when I watched that particular Larry King episode.

It is bothersome that both Kolar and Thomas gave JR "a pass" even though JBR had been previously sexually molested and acutely sexually raped on the night of her death.

Someone may have been showing the nude drawings to JonBenet from the adult Dr. Seuss book that was found in JARs blue suitcase. Patsy was grooming her to be provocative in beauty pageants. You've seen the pageant videos. None of the other girls were dressed in exotic costumes like the garish outfits JBR wore in the mid-90s. Her mother wanted her tiny daughter to be a "sexy" witch for Halloween. Patsy claimed 6yo JBR flirted with an older boy down the street so PR was really watchful when he came around.


From a study by Michelle Oberman of mothers who killed their children in 1990 - 1999:

As a whole, women generally only commit two types of crime:
1. Shoplifting
2. Murdering their children.

"...that in the cases studied, almost all of the mothers disposed of their children in a “womb like” fashion. They either swaddled them, submerged them in water or wrapped them tightly in plastic."

"The National Center For Missing and Exploited Children stated that most children killed by their mothers were always found close to home"

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?id=1077&type=book&cn=90

http://halfpint42592.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/why-do-women-kill-their-own-children/

OMO

 

[Anti-K]

Jonbenet was not disposed of. She was not “swaddled” or wrapped in a “womb like fashion.” A blanket was around her but her arms and feet were exposed.

“The study divides the mothers into five demographic grouping: young mothers who deny their pregnancy and committed “neonaticide”(killing within 24 hours of the birth), mothers who attempt to kill themselves and their children (purposeful altruistic killing), neglectful mothers who actively or passively let their children die, abusive mothers who inadvertently kill their children while disciplining them, and abused women who kill their children due to coercion or their own domestic victimization.” http://tinyurl.com/lzgbnq9

Which if these was Mrs Ramsey?

“The following reasons of why a mother kills are what is concluded after years of research:
The Child Is Unwanted
Out Of Mercy
As A Result Of Mental Illness
Retaliation Against A Spouse
As A Result Of Abuse
To Punish Themselves
To “Erase” In Order To Persue A Relationship
Angry At Themselves Or To Destroy What They Have Created” http://tinyurl.com/k5fwgkg

Which if these was Mrs Ramsey?
...

AK

 

[Tawny]

Although it is not my personal theory as to what led to the death of JBR, I really do not understand why it is so hard to believe a mother could go into a violent rage over something like bedwetting. ANYTHING can be the proverbial straw on the proverbial back of the proverbial camel that sends a tired and impatient mother over the edge. Factor in PR's medical history, and it is quite a reasonable theory, even if I don't subscribe to it myself.

 

[DeDee]

Jonbenet was not disposed of. She was not “swaddled” or wrapped in a “womb like fashion.” A blanket was around her but her arms and feet were exposed.

JonBenet most certainly was disposed of when she was discarded in the WC after life. Her life, as she knew it, was destroyed.

dispose of Verb phrases:

a. to deal with conclusively; settle.

b. to get rid of; discard.

c. to transfer or give away, as by gift or sale.

d. to do away with; destroy.


The offender wrapped JonBenet's body in a white blanket "papoose style" or, as John Ramsey stated, "...as if somebody were tucking her in..." and her favorite pink nightgown was laid next to the body.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/jonbenet_profiled/14.html

LOU SMIT: Again, you had mentioned the fact that the blanket had been wrapped around her almost like, what did you describe it as?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she looked very, like someone had very carefully placed her on the blanket, wrapped the blanket around her to keep her warm.

John Ramsey interview, June 1998

MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. Now, when you went inside to that room, you described the blanket. And you said it was folded like -- I'm just trying to get a mental picture of it. Was it like –
RAMSEY: It was like an Indian papoose.
MIKE KANE: Okay.
JOHN RAMSEY: You know, the blanket was under her completely. It was brought up and folded over like that.

John Ramsey interview, August 2000, Atlanta

“The following reasons of why a mother kills are what is concluded after years of research:
The Child Is Unwanted
Out Of Mercy
As A Result Of Mental Illness
Retaliation Against A Spouse
As A Result Of Abuse
To Punish Themselves
To “Erase” In Order To Persue A Relationship
Angry At Themselves Or To Destroy What They Have Created” http://tinyurl.com/k5fwgkg

Which if these was Mrs Ramsey?
...

AK

My best guesses are:

* Out Of Mercy (if PR knew her daughter was being molested)
* As A Result Of Mental Illness (chemo brain, depression, anxiety)
* Retaliation Against A Spouse (according to the RN, which is filled with disdain toward John, the two men watching over her do not particularly like John and is also likely aimed at Don Paugh w/ the good Southern common sense and fat cat remarks)
* As A Result Of Abuse (spousal abuse (see below) and also if PR was abused in her own youth by her father)

“The study divides the mothers into five demographic grouping: young mothers who deny their pregnancy and committed “neonaticide”(killing within 24 hours of the birth), mothers who attempt to kill themselves and their children (purposeful altruistic killing), neglectful mothers who actively or passively let their children die, abusive mothers who inadvertently kill their children while disciplining them, and abused women who kill their children due to coercion or their own domestic victimization.” http://tinyurl.com/lzgbnq9

Which if these was Mrs Ramsey?

Based on my belief that JR often criticized Patsy (verbal abuse), was emotionally distant (treated her more like a secretary than a loving wife), and was sexually abusive by giving others his affection (JR had extra-marital affairs after responding to ads in the USA classifieds), my best guess would be:

* abused women who kill their children due to coercion or their own domestic victimization

 

[Venom]

Jonbenet was not disposed of. She was not “swaddled” or wrapped in a “womb like fashion.” A blanket was around her but her arms and feet were exposed.

“The study divides the mothers into five demographic grouping: young mothers who deny their pregnancy and committed “neonaticide”(killing within 24 hours of the birth), mothers who attempt to kill themselves and their children (purposeful altruistic killing), neglectful mothers who actively or passively let their children die, abusive mothers who inadvertently kill their children while disciplining them, and abused women who kill their children due to coercion or their own domestic victimization.” http://tinyurl.com/lzgbnq9

Which if these was Mrs Ramsey?

“The following reasons of why a mother kills are what is concluded after years of research:
The Child Is Unwanted
Out Of Mercy
As A Result Of Mental Illness
Retaliation Against A Spouse
As A Result Of Abuse
To Punish Themselves
To “Erase” In Order To Persue A Relationship
Angry At Themselves Or To Destroy What They Have Created” http://tinyurl.com/k5fwgkg

Which if these was Mrs Ramsey?
...

AK

BBM
The following reasons of why a mother kills are what is concluded after years of research:
The Child Is Unwanted
XOut Of Mercy
XAs A Result Of Mental Illness
XRetaliation Against A Spouse
As A Result Of Abuse
To Punish Themselves
To “Erase” In Order To Persue A Relationship
Angry At Themselves Or To Destroy What They Have Created

There are three answers that could work.
PR could have used the ligature to end JB's suffering from the head bash.
PR could have been suffering from some mental illness and/or depression, especially after being diagnosed with ovarian cancer.
PR could have found out who was molesting JB and retaliated against them.

All jmo, but all could explain a reason for PR killing JB.

 

[bettybaby00]

BBM
The following reasons of why a mother kills are what is concluded after years of research:
The Child Is Unwanted
XOut Of Mercy
XAs A Result Of Mental Illness
XRetaliation Against A Spouse
As A Result Of Abuse
To Punish Themselves
To “Erase” In Order To Persue A Relationship
Angry At Themselves Or To Destroy What They Have Created

There are three answers that could work.
PR could have used the ligature to end JB's suffering from the head bash.
PR could have been suffering from some mental illness and/or depression, especially after being diagnosed with ovarian cancer.
PR could have found out who was molesting JB and retaliated against them.



All jmo, but all could explain a reason for PR killing JB.

I'd also add as possibly fitting...

*to punish themselves;
*angry at themselves

if we surmise she found out JRB was being molested, and who was responsible, all three would likely play a role.

 

[Anti-K]

JonBenet most certainly was disposed of when she was discarded in the WC after life. Her life, as she knew it, was destroyed.

dispose of Verb phrases:

a. to deal with conclusively; settle.

b. to get rid of; discard.

c. to transfer or give away, as by gift or sale.

d. to do away with; destroy.


The offender wrapped JonBenet's body in a white blanket "papoose style" or, as John Ramsey stated, "...as if somebody were tucking her in..." and her favorite pink nightgown was laid next to the body.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/jonbenet_profiled/14.html

LOU SMIT: Again, you had mentioned the fact that the blanket had been wrapped around her almost like, what did you describe it as?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she looked very, like someone had very carefully placed her on the blanket, wrapped the blanket around her to keep her warm.

John Ramsey interview, June 1998

MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. Now, when you went inside to that room, you described the blanket. And you said it was folded like -- I'm just trying to get a mental picture of it. Was it like –
RAMSEY: It was like an Indian papoose.
MIKE KANE: Okay.
JOHN RAMSEY: You know, the blanket was under her completely. It was brought up and folded over like that.

John Ramsey interview, August 2000, Atlanta




My best guesses are:

* Out Of Mercy (if PR knew her daughter was being molested)
* As A Result Of Mental Illness (chemo brain, depression, anxiety)
* Retaliation Against A Spouse (according to the RN, which is filled with disdain toward John, the two men watching over her do not particularly like John and is also likely aimed at Don Paugh w/ the good Southern common sense and fat cat remarks)
* As A Result Of Abuse (spousal abuse (see below) and also if PR was abused in her own youth by her father)



Based on my belief that JR often criticized Patsy (verbal abuse), was emotionally distant (treated her more like a secretary than a loving wife), and was sexually abusive by giving others his affection (JR had extra-marital affairs after responding to ads in the USA classifieds), my best guess would be:

* abused women who kill their children due to coercion or their own domestic victimization

What is the WC? I’m not familiar with that one. I know what room you mean, but I don’t know what WC stands for. Anyway…

Jonbenet was not disposed of. She was wrapped in a blanket and hidden in a windowless room in the basement of her home. This is an inarguable and universally accepted fact: the victim was not disposed of.

From the article you cite: The National Center For Missing and Exploited Children stated that most children killed by their mothers were always found close to home, while a child killed by the father is generally hundreds of miles away. http://tinyurl.com/k5fwgkg

Yes, Mr Ramsey’s perception was that his daughter had been wrapped in a caring fashion, but apparently her feet were exposed. I agree with the perception, but the actual picture leans towards a different conclusion.
…

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Thanks to everyone who answered the “which of these was Mrs Ramsey” questions. I’m not going to argue with anyone over their answers. No now, anyway.
...

AK

 

[bettybaby00]

What is the WC? I’m not familiar with that one. I know what room you mean, but I don’t know what WC stands for. Anyway…



AK

WC = wine cellar

 

[renah]

I swear, more & more Im thinking JR, AND that he intended to cya his own behind by casting blame towards Patsy... I agree that it's a stretch, calling it "swaddling". He'd had enough children to know the proper definition. His first reported words referring to "an inside job"... HANDING OVER THE NOTEPAD..

Oh yeah and wait: Wasnt he a crime novel afficiendo??

I realize we dont discuss rumor here, & normally I think that's a great and necessary policy, but I'd sure like to find out for myself just what those rumors surrounding his OTHER dead daughter were composed of.

 

[Anyhoo]

I swear, more & more Im thinking JR, AND that he intended to cya his own behind by casting blame towards Patsy... I agree that it's a stretch, calling it "swaddling". He'd had enough children to know the proper definition. His first reported words referring to "an inside job"... HANDING OVER THE NOTEPAD..

Oh yeah and wait: Wasnt he a crime novel afficiendo??

I realize we dont discuss rumor here, & normally I think that's a great and necessary policy, but I'd sure like to find out for myself just what those rumors surrounding his OTHER dead daughter were composed of.

PR did not strangle her daughter to death with the garrote, so whatever other parts she played in this, she is not the murderer of her daughter. I have concluded that there is only one member of the family who could have done that: JR. The one person that most people here suspect the least is actually the murderer. There are various reasons I know of for why he would do it and all of those have been discussed, but the primary reason is this: the garrote was staging. Why? Because nobody would believe that any parent would be cold blooded enough to do that to their own daughter, so it must have been done by an intruder. The truth is there for anyone who has eyes to see it. The fact that that staging also killed JB is not important to its primary function. JB could have easily been killed by simply holding a hand over her nose and mouth until she suffocated but that would have lacked the 'shock and awe' of the brutal strangulation device that pointed to a brutal sadistic killer. It was all for show and it worked beautifully.

 

[bettybaby00]

PR did not strangle her daughter to death with the garrote, so whatever other parts she played in this, she is not the murderer of her daughter. I have concluded that there is only one member of the family who could have done that: JR. The one person that most people here suspect the least is actually the murderer. There are various reasons I know of for why he would do it and all of those have been discussed, but the primary reason is this: the garrote was staging. Why? Because nobody would believe that any parent would be cold blooded enough to do that to their own daughter, so it must have been done by an intruder. The truth is there for anyone who has eyes to see it. The fact that that staging also killed JB is not important to its primary function. JB could have easily been killed by simply holding a hand over her nose and mouth until she suffocated but that would have lacked the 'shock and awe' of the brutal strangulation device that pointed to a brutal sadistic killer. It was all for show and it worked beautifully.

ITA. I definitely believe Kolar was onto something with regard to BR being involved, it explains a lot IMO. However, I don't see him staging in anyway, that was
all the parents. As Kolar states, it's his belief that all three had a hand in what happened that night.

To me the most likely scenario...BR inflicted the head bash, and the parents were responsible for everything else. It's possible that PRs only involvement was the RN, and possibly the undoing. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that she covered JRB with the blanket, leaving the basement & JR to take care of everything else. She takes care of whatever needed to be done upstairs, never seeing JRB again until she was brought upstairs by JR.

 

[Anti-K]

BBM

PR did not strangle her daughter to death with the garrote, so whatever other parts she played in this, she is not the murderer of her daughter. I have concluded that there is only one member of the family who could have done that: JR. The one person that most people here suspect the least is actually the murderer. There are various reasons I know of for why he would do it and all of those have been discussed, but the primary reason is this: the garrote was staging. Why? Because nobody would believe that any parent would be cold blooded enough to do that to their own daughter, so it must have been done by an intruder. The truth is there for anyone who has eyes to see it. The fact that that staging also killed JB is not important to its primary function. JB could have easily been killed by simply holding a hand over her nose and mouth until she suffocated but that would have lacked the 'shock and awe' of the brutal strangulation device that pointed to a brutal sadistic killer. It was all for show and it worked beautifully.

Except, the garrote was not staging. The victim was asphyxiated to death with it – it was real, it really did happen. Nothing fake about it.
...

AK

 

[Anyhoo]

BBM


Except, the garrote was not staging. The victim was asphyxiated to death with it – it was real, it really did happen. Nothing fake about it.
...

AK

Did you not understand my post? Why cannot it be both staging and the murder device? If someone wanted not just to kill JB but to kill her in such a way as to point to a brutal intruder, then it is staging. Two birds with one stone. Kill plus stage. To a logical mind it makes perfect sense. It also makes the killer a cold blooded monster but the logic of doing it is flawless. Look to someone within the family with the capacity to think that way. Only one person fits.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The neck ligature was not a garrote.
There was no staging for police.
Patsy did the whole thing alone and did it deliberately.
IMO.

 

[Anyhoo]

The neck ligature was not a garrote.
There was no staging for police.
Patsy did the whole thing alone and did it deliberately.
IMO.

It is possible but I just don't see it. PR valued JB and got personal satisfaction when JB won beauty pageants. Why brutally murder her? It makes no sense. PR was not psychotic and she would have to be to have done it all like you say. I think there is another explanation, such as: BR delivers the head blow, parents hear the loud scream and discover what has happened. Parents decide to cover up for what BR has done. Both parents are involved in the staging but the most important and effective staging of all is done by JR, which is the garrote. It is their trump card that can be played at anytime: look at that. You know we couldn't have done that.