Happenings of December 26

[otg]

Some thoughts...

I've always thought an actual garrote was a cord wound once around the neck with handles on each end that were pulled to cut off airflow. I've been searching for "garrotes" and have seen talk of a cord being tied around the neck and pulled, often with a knee pushed onto the victims back to help with leverage. Would that be how this "strangulation device" (thanks Tawny for the term ) was used?
Could she have been smothered with a hand and then the strangulation device be added afterwards? Hence that's how her hyoid bone not being broken.

If she had been smothered with a hand, a pillow, or almost anything, there should be other trauma in and around her mouth which Dr. Meyer made a point to make note was NOT found (particularly the bolded):

The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous material. The teeth are native and in good repair. The tongue is smooth, pink-tan and granular. No buccal mucosal trauma is seen. The frenulum is intact. There is slight drying artifact of the tip of the of tongue.
​

It is actually unlikely for the hyoid (or the cricoid) to be damaged in anything but manual strangulation -- even less so in children because it hasn't completely fused and ossified yet.

 

[otg]

Yes, I could see that. Haven't we all (moms) been there?

WHAAAATTTT??? OMG.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_S5cXbXe-4"]The OMG Cat - YouTube[/ame]

 

[bettybaby00]

They wouldn't see it as arrogance.

Money buys privilege and others are too easily lead to cater to it.


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Yes, IA. They felt the shouldn't be considered suspect simply b/c they said so.

 

[Linda7NJ]

WHAAAATTTT??? OMG.

The OMG Cat - YouTube

Frazzled, at wits end!!!
Not murderous..although it does happen all the time, not always ending in death...IMO


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[Venom]

WHAAAATTTT??? OMG.

The OMG Cat - YouTube

No, not saying I've been THERE. Goodness no.
But yes, I can see her being frustrated, stressed, over burdened.

 

[otg]

Ladies, please. :facepalm: I was just kidding. No need to get defensive. As a father -- I've been there too.

 

[Anyhoo]

I thought about it more and distilled my thoughts down further to this. Here is what troubles me about the entire garrote/ligature/"whatever" strangulation. Whether it is staging or not, it indicates to me that JB's life had no value to the killer. Whether she lived or died didn't matter to the person doing it. Whoever did it did not care about JB as a person and was not going to miss her when she was dead. They had no human feeling or compassion toward JB. This troubles me because, short of being completely psychotic, I cannot see any R family member feeling this way toward JB. It troubles me because it paints a picture of an intruder who really did not give a f*** about JB as a human being. I know I argued JR did it with that specific purpose in mind but I cannot even see JR as being this cold blooded toward his daughter. He did value her. PR valued her even more than JR. BR valued her. This is what does not make sense to me. To kill so coldly someone that you value does not make sense. To kill so coldly someone that you do not value does make sense. Of the three Ramsey's, I believe the person who valued JB the least was BR but he would have to have been psychotic to have strangled her to death.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I thought about it more and distilled my thoughts down further to this. Here is what troubles me about the entire garrote/ligature/"whatever" strangulation. Whether it is staging or not, it indicates to me that JB's life had no value to the killer. Whether she lived or died didn't matter to the person doing it. Whoever did it did not care about JB as a person and was not going to miss her when she was dead. They had no human feeling or compassion toward JB. This troubles me because, short of being completely psychotic, I cannot see any R family member feeling this way toward JB. It troubles me because it paints a picture of an intruder who really did not give a f*** about JB as a human being. I know I argued JR did it with that specific purpose in mind but I cannot even see JR as being this cold blooded toward his daughter. He did value her. PR valued her even more than JR. BR valued her. This is what does not make sense to me. To kill so coldly someone that you value does not make sense. To kill so coldly someone that you do not value does make sense.

I disagree. Patsy valued JonBenet as an extension of herself. It wasn't a normal healthy love. Patsy loved to dress her up and show her off... Contrast that with the mom that didn't know when she last bathed her daughter or what she ate last.

I've posted before about narcissistic mothers and their daughters ( problems around age 6-7 due to children becoming individuals, no longer happy being "mini me")
I included many links to back this up, I think you can do a search, they should come up here.

If you've ever watched "Toddlers and tiaras" you'll see the narcissistic dynamic I'm talking about. Very few of those mothers are there supporting their children's wishes, typically it's the other way around.
JonBenet began expressing herself, her feelings and standing up to Patsy in defense of her own individuality. That's a very dangerous time for the young daughter of a narcissist.
One more straw on the camels overburdened back....

All IMO


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[Blue Bottle 01]

Patsy used JonBenet as an object, a blank canvas on which she expressed her latent sexuality in the child pageants and photo sessions through costuming and coaching of gestures. Patsy's disregard for JonBenet is evident in the reports of the condition she was in when dropped off at school, conditions that sparked other mothers to consider confronting Patsy about. Another possible example is the number of visits to the doctor for concerns in "that area", (Munchhausen by proxy) the frequency of which visits accelerated in the months before the death.

The sociopathic track record is there.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The effects on children being raised by a pathologically narcissistic mother is well known and documented. The results can be a child with the Borderline Condition. IMO, Nedra was the narcissist and her daughters the borderlines.

Patsy's narcissism was not of a classic narcissist but rather of a borderline.

The classic narcissist crosses personal boundaries to manipulate while the borderline crosses them because they don't know the difference between themselves and others, they identify with them due to a lack of self identity.

 

[bettybaby00]

I thought about it more and distilled my thoughts down further to this. Here is what troubles me about the entire garrote/ligature/"whatever" strangulation. Whether it is staging or not, it indicates to me that JB's life had no value to the killer. Whether she lived or died didn't matter to the person doing it. Whoever did it did not care about JB as a person and was not going to miss her when she was dead. They had no human feeling or compassion toward JB. This troubles me because, short of being completely psychotic, I cannot see any R family member feeling this way toward JB. It troubles me because it paints a picture of an intruder who really did not give a f*** about JB as a human being. I know I argued JR did it with that specific purpose in mind but I cannot even see JR as being this cold blooded toward his daughter. He did value her. PR valued her even more than JR. BR valued her. This is what does not make sense to me. To kill so coldly someone that you value does not make sense. To kill so coldly someone that you do not value does make sense. Of the three Ramsey's, I believe the person who valued JB the least was BR but he would have to have been psychotic to have strangled her to death.

It's hard to comprehend, b/c whether you (all of us) mean to or not, we project our own values, and feelings onto this situation.

I'm not sure the murder was strictly about devaluing JRBs worth, but rather they placed a higher value on themselves. I think when panicked , and self preservation kicks in, people can go to extraordinary lengths to protect themselves. That panic led to the unthinkable, b/c in their view, she couldn't be saved, and why should they ruin their lives if there is a chance to save themselves?

PR especially I think could never have recovered from the world finding out that someone in her house was molesting JRB, and that it ultimately led to her death. I was struck by this thought today when all the news shows were covering the recent interview by Adam Lanza's father. When that tragedy struck last year, look at how many people blamed his mother. There wasn't a great deal of sympathy for her, and many deemed it "all her fault." Can't you imagine PR having that mindset? I can. She would have viewed it as a reflection on her. In the interview Adam's father admits that he and his other son have considered changing their last name b/c of the horrible association it represents.

Aside from the horrific violence that JRB suffered, I think their actions immediately after "discovering" her body illustrates how much they valued themselves. Has there ever been a similar case where the father tries to leave town for an "urgent business meeting" before his daughter's body has even gone to the morgue? And I'll bring up the lawyer issue again b/c although many feel its "normal" to lawyer up in such a situation, it certainly isn't normal to use those lawyers to hinder the investigation. I mean really, who the hell issues a press release days after the murder stating, "we won't be talking with the police, all questions must be submitted in writing, and delivered through the DA???!!!

I could go on, the list of such behavior is long. And it all points to family involvement and a "we'll do whatever it takes," to not be held criminally responsible for what happened.

Clearly all MOO, etc., etc.

 

[bettybaby00]

Ladies, please. :facepalm: I was just kidding. No need to get defensive. As a father -- I've been there too.

Haven't we all? :loveyou:

 

[Linda7NJ]

It's hard to comprehend, b/c whether you (all of us) mean to or not, we project our own values, and feelings onto this situation.



I'm not sure the murder was strictly about devaluing JRBs worth, but rather they placed a higher value on themselves. I think when panicked , and self preservation kicks in, people can go to extraordinary lengths to protect themselves. That panic led to the unthinkable, b/c in their view, she couldn't be saved, and why should they ruin their lives if there is a chance to save themselves?



PR especially I think could never have recovered from the world finding out that someone in her house was molesting JRB, and that it ultimately led to her death. I was struck by this thought today when all the news shows were covering the recent interview by Adam Lanza's father. When that tragedy struck last year, look at how many people blamed his mother. There wasn't a great deal of sympathy for her, and many deemed it "all her fault." Can't you imagine PR having that mindset? I can. She would have viewed it as a reflection on her. In the interview Adam's father admits that he and his other son have considered changing their last name b/c of the horrible association it represents.



Aside from the horrific violence that JRB suffered, I think their actions immediately after "discovering" her body illustrates how much they valued themselves. Has there ever been a similar case where the father tries to leave town for an "urgent business meeting" before his daughter's body has even gone to the morgue? And I'll bring up the lawyer issue again b/c although many feel its "normal" to lawyer up in such a situation, it certainly isn't normal to use those lawyers to hinder the investigation. I mean really, who the hell issues a press release days after the murder stating, "we won't be talking with the police, all questions must be submitted in writing, and delivered through the DA???!!!



I could go on, the list of such behavior is long. And it all points to family involvement and a "we'll do whatever it takes," to not be held criminally responsible for what happened.



Clearly all MOO, etc., etc.

Tonight, since I'm in a "Patsy all Patsy" mood ...
I believe John's mind was racing..some part of him knew that morning. He was upset, confused and in denial. He wanted to run away, think...He figured it out sometime that morning. I believe he found her earlier than his "official witnessed" finding her.

Tune in tomorrow when I change my mind again....




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[bettybaby00]

Tonight, since I'm in a "Patsy all Patsy" mood ...
I believe John's mind was racing..some part of him knew that morning. He was upset, confused and in denial. He wanted to run away, think...He figured it out sometime that morning. I believe he found her earlier than his "official witnessed" finding her.

Tune in tomorrow when I change my mind again....




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:lol:

But the finding her earlier part....that was some Freudian slip, gotta love 'em!

 

[questfortrue]

BBM

As far as logic, someone posted the other week, and of course it's been stated by all the "experts," staging is used to deflect, and mislead. In that regard they were very successful. And IA also with the comment, the more heinous the better to never consider a Ramsey.

In fact for me, the arrogance you've just described doesn't make me believe RDI any less, b/c so much of their post crime behavior was extremely arrogant, IMO.

Prior to this tragedy, I'm sure their wealth and status in Boulder afforded them many opportunities and advantages that would be out of reach for most others. During the investigation, they operated above the rule of law, and believed they deserved that treatment. The transcript of PR regarding BR's safety from 2000 posted in the "burke involved thread" is a prime example as to the level of that arrogance. L. Wood is just......slimy is the word that immediately comes to mind, takes a lot of B**** to try and manipulate like that. And PR just let him "handle it," b/c hey that's what privilege is all about, right?

All MOO of course

IMO, PR and JR took arrogance to a whole new level, not just in disguising a tragic domestic event. It was the aftermath. From figuring they might just fly away to Georgia (on business), throw the housekeeper under the bus (along with other), take to TV within a little over a week to immediately shore up their image. The parade that the GJ had not indicted them. Then came the book writing, the lawsuits to protect BR’s image, and then the “henchman” LW threatening B officials with lawsuits. Self-absorption (what some term borderline/narcissism?), desperation and extreme arrogance will allow for the most outrageous actions.

I’ve no words for “the henchman,” so perhaps his words to Walter Davis, an author who wrote a book about JB, should speak for him. Davis received an email from LW in which he threatens "publish your accusatory book and I will bankrupt you with a suit… I will buy another Jaguar and thoroughbred race horse with the proceeds from another legal victory for the Ramseys."
__________________________
RE this thread tonight - me, three. Just when I figured out on the ligatures thread what the word bloviator means, (I figure it’s a terminator with a blow torch :smile, switched over here and been switching gears so fast I feel like that spun cat Bluebottle refers to. :crazy:

MHO

 

[bettybaby00]

IMO, PR and JR took arrogance to a whole new level, not just in disguising a tragic domestic event. It was the aftermath. From figuring they might just fly away to Georgia (on business), throw the housekeeper under the bus (along with other), take to TV within a little over a week to immediately shore up their image. The parade that the GJ had not indicted them. Then came the book writing, the lawsuits to protect BR’s image, and then the “henchman” LW threatening B officials with lawsuits. Self-absorption (what some term borderline/narcissism?), desperation and extreme arrogance will allow for the most outrageous actions.

I’ve no words for “the henchman,” so perhaps his words to Walter Davis, an author who wrote a book about JB, should speak for him. Davis received an email from LW in which he threatens "publish your accusatory book and I will bankrupt you with a suit… I will buy another Jaguar and thoroughbred race horse with the proceeds from another legal victory for the Ramseys."
__________________________
RE this thread tonight - me, three. Just when I figured out on the ligatures thread what the word bloviator means, (I figure it’s a terminator with a blow torch :smile, switched over here and been switching gears so fast I feel like that spun cat Bluebottle refers to. :crazy:

MHO

Yup, the list is long...

And I said earlier, when you reAds the transcripts of their "interviews," the first word that comes to mind about LW is slimy.

I mean who came up with the idea to turn what should have been police interrogation into an interview?

 

[Anti-K]

I don't agree with you that it was not staging, obviously or otherwise, for this reason: if the killer chose the method of killing specifically with the intent of deceiving LE, then that is staging by my definition. I already gave you an example. There were much easier ways to kill JB than creating and using the garrote and yet the killer ignored all of those easier ways and instead went to the trouble of creating a garrote and using it. If the purpose was only to kill JB, that could have been acheived in other less difficult ways. I contend that the garrote served a two-fold purpose: to kill and at the same time to deceive those who would be examining the body later. You can choose not to see this possibility because it goes against your intruder theory or you can at least admit it is possible, even if you disagree with it. No garrote had to be created for JB to be killed and yet the killer went to the trouble of making it. Why? It was for show. Even though it killed JB, it was STILL for show. Unlike other items that were taken, this item was left on her neck to be found because it was meant to be seen by LE. It had a purpose beyond merely killing the victim. I don't know how to explain it any clearer than this.

I think I understand what you’re trying to say, but I don’t think what you’re describing is the same as staging, and your use of the term creates confusion. I actually agree that the garrote, and the handle, were used for some reason other than simply an asphyxiation.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I never thought I would find myself agreeing with Scarlett against other RDI members but I do. No matter what you want to call it, there was a device around her neck that was used to strangle her to death. Don't get caught up over terminology. That said, I would like to focus on one little part of the strangulation device, the broken paint brush handle. I agree that JB's hair in the knot indicates the garrote was created around her neck and not pre-created. To me that indicates the garrote was an afterthought and not something someone premeditated, which fits with my staging theory, but the mystery to me is the paint brush handle. Something about the decision to break that off and use it as the handle of the strangulation device troubles me. It's hard to explain what I am trying to say but it is basically this: if I were the one creating this device, for the purposes of staging, it would be highly illogical for me to choose the paintbrush handle as part of it. The decision to use that goes contrary to the goal of staging (by a Ramsey) unless the person staging was so arrogant and supremely confident that they believed they could do almost anything and not get caught. The decision to use that broken paint brush reveals the killer's thought processes. No fear. The belief he or she is invincible, that they can leave any clues they want and still not get caught. This realization troubles me because it indicates a mind that is not a Ramsey. I have to admit that to myself. No person in the family fits that MO.

Yes, the use of the paintbrush handle is contrary to RDI. And, breaking the paintbrush handle and putting one end back into the paint tote is made absurd by RDI. We know that some evidence was likely removed from the house, but the (if RDI) unnecessarily created self-incriminating evidence was not, and this too is contrary to RDI. This is the sort of evidence that goes on the IDI side of the scale.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

If one were wanting to fake a realistic crime scene, the choice of the paint brush handle as the strangulation device handle would be most illogical, in the same way
as writing a RN using a pad and pen from the house was most illogical. A realistic crime scene would not use something that pointed directly back to the family, IMO. Do you consider the RN a realistic crime scene? I don't. Nor do I consider the garrote fashioned around her neck and using the broken paint brush handle realistic. It is like the person who did it didn't care if it was realistic or not, kind of like the RN.

I agree with on many points you said but I am still troubled by this one part of it. The garrote reveals a lot about the killer, staging or not. The decision to use that stick shows the emotions and thought processes of the person doing it. Any normal person would be terrified because of what they were doing: killing a child, but this person was not terrified. This person didn't care. This person might even have enjoyed it.

Yes, the garrote tells us something about the person who used it. I have no idea if he would have enjoyed it, but I do agree that the killer simply didn’t care. This garrote allowed for a simple, quick, and very efficient but brutal method of death. You or I probably wouldn’t think of strangling someone in this manner; we’d picture doing it some other way.

I think it is possible that the killer may have used the paintbrush handle because it connects the garrote to the home (same as the so-called practice note). He may have broken the paintbrush and put one end in the tote so that investigators would find it and make that connection. Maybe. This could have been done as part of a plan, or done on impulse. I don’t know. But, the breaking of the handle and putting the brush back in the tote is what really bothers me.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Full moon?
Time change?


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We don’t change the time here. We change time zones. Last week I was in the mountain time zone and since the time change I am now in the pacific time zone. Weird, eh?
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AK