Happenings of December 26

[gramcracker]

I guess this means we should only offer experiences or anecdotes that convey pro-Ramsey parallels.

:notgood:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I guess this means we should only offer experiences or anecdotes that convey pro-Ramsey parallels.

First I am not pro ramsey. I am pro Jonbenet and the truth. Pro justice. Never pro ramsey.

Just because I disagree that it could be applicable in this case means nothing more than, I don't agree. It is not personal. I like to read your posts. There are a lot of people here that I don't agree with that I find incredible thinkers and really enjoy discussing the case with.

I think what happened in your anecdote is horrible. Just horrific I just don't see how it applies to this case. In your story the man was on the edge of losing everything, of being exposed so he took ALL the people that would be most affected out of the picture. Why? I can not speculate. Shame, warped sense of protection???

But in this case, When the subject of the abuse is the only one killed it draws a bullseye on those closest to her. So that scenario does not really apply here is all I am saying. Not to me anyway. If it does apply for others, in their scenario, that is their decision. I don't think there is two people who are here in this forum that agree about EVERY detail of what happened even if they are all RDI or IDI.

 

[Anyhoo]

I agree. I don't see how a case where a man killed his family after being involved in a ponzi scheme relates to this case at all. A guy losing all of his money, going crazy, then killing everyone he loves and then himself, doesn't remotely fit in with this case. MOO.

You IDI are completely missing the point, which was not that there were exact parallels between these cases, but that people who are put into extraordinary situations will sometimes behave in completely brutal and inhuman ways in response. That is a fact and many examples can be provided to prove it. In looking for a reason why someone would brutally and inhumanely strangle a six year old girl to death, it is a valid point to make.

 

[Tawny]

The POINT that is obviously being MISSED in that story is that even the most even-keel, normal, happy, stable family can have something go wrong in their life that causes one or more of them to commit an horrendous act.

How was that missed? The story elements themselves are different, but the baseline is that the family seemed well rounded and stable, and yet a murder-suicide happened. The same COULD have happened in the Ramsey household. The stable, well rounded family could have had a dark side, wherein one or more of them happened to be secretly abusive and it led to tragedy.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

The POINT that is obviously being MISSED in that story is that even the most even-keel, normal, happy, stable family can have something go wrong in their life that causes one or more of them to commit an horrendous act.

How was that missed? The story elements themselves are different, but the baseline is that the family seemed well rounded and stable, and yet a murder-suicide happened. The same COULD have happened in the Ramsey household. The stable, well rounded family could have had a dark side, wherein one or more of them happened to be secretly abusive and it led to tragedy.

If it could have it would have. If you believe the cases are linked then if JR was really the culprit and this is to show that this is how people react to being caught, Then it would have happened. To me what happened was a little girl was murdered. It has nothing to do with the family as a whole as it was investigated thoroughly and there were never charges brought against JR for molesting a child. This one or any one.

If the parallel is that men cover up their crimes in this fashion by killing everyone, Then I don't see how it applies here because it DID NOT happen here.
To me it is bad enough without speculating beyond the facts and trying to make it appear worse.. JMO.

 

[chlban]

Completely agree..no one ever knows what goes on behind another family's closed door.

I actually have a very good example, that hit very close to home, and next month will mark the 5th anniversary of the tradgedy.

For those members who live in the NY/Long Island area, this story will be familiar.

I live in a community that is very similar to the Rs lifestyle.

I knew this family in our community b/c my daughter was in the same grade as their youngest daughter. They were considered the perfect family. He was a successful real estate attorney, and coached his girls sports teams. The mom was a homemaker, who was active in the PTA, super involved with her girls and chaired several charities. Everyone knew them, and they were very well liked. My daughter used to have play dates with the one daughter when they were in kindergarten/1st grade.

5 years ago, we returned from a spring break vacation on a Sunday night. I kept my kids home the following Monday, b/c we got home late, and they both seemed to have caught colds while we were away. I was checking my email on that Monday, when an "important" notice email from the school district came in. It said, "due to the tragic death of the xxxxx family...." I couldn't understand what could have happened. Was it a car accident? A house fire? A plane crash? I couldn't think of anything else that could have wiped out the whole family, and started calling friends. The initial reports stated that while the parents and their 12 year old daughter were visiting their eldest daughter at college, the family was found dead in their hotel room. Rumors began that it was a possible murder(s)/suicide.

I knew I had to tell me own daughter b/c she would be returning to,school the next day. I didn't want her to go to school without knowing as this was a girl she knew very well. I called her downstairs, and said I have some bad news. I told her that the xxxx family had been found murdered. I was trying to be as tactful as possible, as I didn't have all the facts. She was very upset, and started asking questions. I said I didn't know what happened, just that they were found dead. She started freaking out, and crying, and said, "but mom, what if they come to our house?! What are we going to do? When will they catch these guys?"

It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to tell her, when I said, "the
police think that maybe the dad did it." Needless to say that caused even more crying, and questions.

I assumed that the father probably smothered, or possibly drugged his family before taking his own life.

I WAS WRONG....

This upstanding father, and husband had evidently gotten involved in some sort small-scale Ponzi scheme, and lost the family money, as well as the money of his friends and business associates. Why he felt the need to kill himself, and his wife and daughters will never be known or understood. But the violence, and calculation involved was frightening.

After going out to dinner as a family, their eldest returned to school, and the family returned to the hotel. That's when dear old dad went into action. The wife and 12 year old daughter were bludgeoned to death....BLUDGEONED TO DEATH!!!!

He then calls his older daughter, and says "you need to come back to the hotel." Using what excuse I've no idea. When she returns, she suffers the same fate. He "gently" lays all three down on the bed, walks across the street to a local store, buys a knife, and waits a couple of hours before using it to stab himself until he bled to death on the bathroom floor. They were found on Monday morning by the cleaning staff.

The vision that STILL haunts me is that K had to have witnessed her mother's murder. And how scared and sickened she must have felt when she knew her father was about to murder her in the same way.

Before he killed himself, the roommates of his oldest daughter called to ask if everything was ok, b/c they had expected her to have been back already. He calmly told them, "she won't be coming back." They assumed he meant she would be staying the night with her family. And I guess you could say she did.

I apologize for such a long post, but it illustrates, first hand, how these things can happen in a seemingly "normal, happy, loving" family. All b/c he was too ashamed to have everyone find out he lost his money, and the money of his friends. Looking back it's also interesting to me to remember my daughter's reaction.

In a way I think it was better that he did go though with killing himself. There was no "investigation." There was no denial by him that an intruder did it, or accusations that one of the people he cheated wanted to exact revenge, or even a BS story that he couldn't remember what happened b/c he was so traumatized. There was no trial, no drawn out media circus. It was simply over.

:crying:

Wow. So very sorry for your experience and that your kids had to deal with something so horrendous.

It's tragic and heartbreaking to read about the stories I referred to and so many others, but to actually have truly known such a tragic family.

My heart goes out. Sorry if my post brought it all back.

 

[Tawny]

If it could have it would have. If you believe the cases are linked then if JR was really the culprit and this is to show that this is how people react to being caught, Then it would have happened. To me what happened was a little girl was murdered. It has nothing to do with the family as a whole as it was investigated thoroughly and there were never charges brought against JR for molesting a child. This one or any one.

If the parallel is that men cover up their crimes in this fashion by killing everyone, Then I don't see how it applies here because it DID NOT happen here.
To me it is bad enough without speculating beyond the facts and trying to make it appear worse.. JMO.

Did I say they were "linked"? Nope.

The parallel is that in a "normal" family, a huge traumatic disruption in the family life (like, say, cancer... or, say, losing all the family's money), can cause member/s of the family to act violently and/or abusively.

Do you see that now? It is not a literal, direct comparison. Think abstractly, not literally.

ETA: I'm not JDI, btw. Stop focusing on JUST the husband/dad in these scenarios. There are other members who could have been impacted by the family trauma and reacted in a hostile manner.

 

[chlban]

You IDI are completely missing the point, which was not that there were exact parallels between these cases, but that people who are put into extraordinary situations will sometimes behave in completely brutal and inhuman ways in response. That is a fact and many examples can be provided to prove it. In looking for a reason why someone would brutally and inhumanely strangle a six year old girl to death, it is a valid point to make.

With all due respect, not only people put in extraordinary situations.

Jeffrey MacDonald
Darlie Routier
Susan Smith
Diane Downs

Not one of them was in "extraordinary situations". Not one of them had a history of mental illness, child abuse or any other signs of family violence. In fact, every one of them had been described as a wonderful parent.

Yet every single one of them brutally and coldly murdered their supposedly beloved children. Then two of them just made up lies about being attacked in their cars and were too stupid to stage, and the other two staged the murder scene to make it look like there was an intruder or intruders.

No one saw it coming in any of those cases either.

 

[Tawny]

With all due respect, not only people put in extraordinary situations.

Jeffrey MacDonald
Darlie Routier
Susan Smith
Diane Downs

Not one of them was in "extraordinary situations". Not one of them had a history of mental illness, child abuse or any other signs of family violence. In fact, every one of them had been described as a wonderful parent.

Yet every single one of them brutally and coldly murdered their supposedly beloved children. Then two of them just made up lies about being attacked in their cars and were too stupid to stage, and the other two staged the murder scene to make it look like there was an intruder or intruders.

No one saw it coming in any of those cases either.

Precisely.

Which is why it blows my tiny mind that it's so far outside the realm of possibility that this could have happened to JBR.

 

[bettybaby00]

Thanks to all for getting my post. The parrallel(s) represent the fact that no individual or family is transparent. All the the specific examples recounted describe families that were well respected, well liked, often affluent, and had never exhibited any outward signs of abuse, or dysfunction.

They all also exhibit a sense of entitlement. Either by seeking to get away with their crime through their efforts to blame some crazed intruder or unknown assailant, as well as a belief that eliminating their family members benefited them in some way.

Claiming to not be "pro Ramsey" would mean one would have a willingness to consider the family as culprits. Instead their is continued insistence that they appeared to be a loving family, while denying the overwhelming conclusion that there was previous sexual contact/abuse.

Compelling evidence that points toward their involvement definitely exists. In any investigation ALL evidence must be weighed and considered, and any one specific piece of evidence has to be weighed against the significance of others. As posted previously, even ML conceded that the tDNA could be artifact which if true, has no bearing on this case. To weight it as the single most important piece of evidence while refusing to acknowledge any and all evidence pointing toward the family certainly seems like a pro Ramsey stance to me.

:moo:

 

[Tawny]

Claiming to not be "pro Ramsey" would mean one would have a willingness to consider the family as culprits. Instead their is continued insistence that they appeared to be a loving family, while denying the overwhelming conclusion that there was previous sexual contact/abuse.

Compelling evidence that points toward their involvement definitely exists. In any investigation ALL evidence must be weighed and considered, and any one specific piece of evidence has to be weighed against the significance of others. As posted previously, even ML conceded that the tDNA could be artifact which if true, has no bearing on this case. To weight it as the single most important piece of evidence while refusing to acknowledge any and all evidence pointing toward the family certainly seems like a pro Ramsey stance to me.

:moo:

Worded far better than I could have, and I agree 1000%

 

[chlban]

Just to clarify, since even all of us RDI's don't share the same theories, I am not convinced that JB's death had anything at all to do with the prior sexual abuse. Since I lean toward a variation of the Steve Thomas theory, sexual abuse is not a component of that.

As such, I used examples of parents who brutally killed their own children for reasons that had nothing to do with sexual abuse or any unusual or extreme event in their lives.

That is essentially what I think most likely happened with JB.

That theory does not negate the possibility that there was ongoing sexual abuse, although I really don't believe John was the perpetrator. There could have been abuse and there could have been an unplanned murder that happened as a result of a fit of rage. They are not mutually exclusive. However, what I do or do not believe about the sexual abuse is irrelevent to the point I am trying to make.

Parents described as loving, devoted, doting, dedicated, what have you. Parents who no one that knew them would ever expect or even believe could harm their children, murder them. They murder them brutally, sometimes because they are "staging", sometimes not. But murder them they do.

Parents just like the Ramseys.

 

[Mama2JML]

My condolences, bettybaby00. There are parallels as well as distinct differences.

 

[Junebug99]

Susan Smith, Diane Downs had a clear motive, a man.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The Christian God is Male.

 

[Tawny]

The Christian God is Male.

What in the name of all that is good and holy are you talking about?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

What in the name of all that is good and holy are you talking about?

Goodness and Holiness.

 

[DeeDee249]

The traditional Judeo-Christian REPRESENTATION of God is male. God has no gender, since there is no physical body. When we say we are made in His image, it is our souls- the spark of God inside every human (whether they believe or not) is the Image of God.

 

[otg]

Susan Smith, Diane Downs had a clear motive, a man.

Yeah, right. Blame it on "a man". What was that DeeDee249 said about putting a man on the moon? :giggle:

 

[Junebug99]

Not blaming, it's a proven fact. Darlie Router some think is innocent, I don't.