Happenings of December 26

[andreww]

I don't really find it suspicious that they called the Police. I think at that point, the issue isn't about whether or not you could raise the ransom and, in all fairness, I think my instinct would be to call. However, I would make it clear that the RN specifically instructed against it and threatened my daughters life so that the PD would be discreet and I would probably assume they are trained for such situations. Which, of course, would have been wrong. BPD clearly wasn't trained for much.

However what I find totally ridiculous is that they then contacted half of the population of Boulder to "come on over". That, to me is the first major red flag as to their guilt. Followed closely by that absurd RN.

I agree 100%. And to add that they never even had the discussion between each other whether to call the police, despot the note's threats. Might have been a good idea to tell the 911 operator that the note said not to call them as well.

 

[DeeDee249]

I also agree. I'd have called police too. I think anyone would have done the same thing. But I would NOT have called all my friends over- parking their cars in front of my "watched" house. Police do deal with this- all you have to do is tell them what the note said. They can investigate without coming over too. Put a "trap" on the phone lines. This can be done without coming into the house. They can have an unmarked car close to, but not in front of, the house to observe. Even use a neighbor's house. The red flag is certainly calling all the friends over "for support". That was done for the express purpose of contaminating the crime scene and distracting the police who were there. But the MAIN reason it was done was to provide the perfect reason for the "kidnappers" to kill her. Disobey them in a very public and blatant way.

 

[BBB167893]

I think they would have left her where she was (in the wine cellar) and said she must have been there all along, or said she must have been mysteriously put in there while they were home (expecting people to actually believe such nonsense). To tell you the truth, I have no doubt there would have been plenty of idiots who would have believed them. The world has no shortage of stupid.

DD, that had me in stitches!

 

[UKGuy]

I also agree. I'd have called police too. I think anyone would have done the same thing. But I would NOT have called all my friends over- parking their cars in front of my "watched" house. Police do deal with this- all you have to do is tell them what the note said. They can investigate without coming over too. Put a "trap" on the phone lines. This can be done without coming into the house. They can have an unmarked car close to, but not in front of, the house to observe. Even use a neighbor's house. The red flag is certainly calling all the friends over "for support". That was done for the express purpose of contaminating the crime scene and distracting the police who were there. But the MAIN reason it was done was to provide the perfect reason for the "kidnappers" to kill her. Disobey them in a very public and blatant way.

DeeDee249,
mmm, your speculation regarding the R's intentions is interesting. Just how would the kidnappers kill a girl that an autopsy might consider was killed many hours ago, i.e. using livor mortis as an indicator one can quickly rule out the kidnappers enacting some kind of post-abduction homicide, since it does not fall within the "kill her" mandate which is post the 911 call, yet JonBenet's corpse has being lying, demonstratively so, in the wine-cellar for hours!

 

[UKGuy]

I agree 100%. And to add that they never even had the discussion between each other whether to call the police, despot the note's threats. Might have been a good idea to tell the 911 operator that the note said not to call them as well.

andreww.
No, actually JR and PR had to discuss what they were enacting otherwise they would have failed. They likely disagreed the extent to which they might be involved, e.g. PR says she undressed JonBenet for bed, JR says not. Just as the R's cannot predict the BPD's future actions, so this tells you the R's had a sub-agenda, one that facilitated their version of events.


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[Mama2JML]

andreww.
No, actually JR and PR had to discuss what they were enacting otherwise they would have failed. They likely disagreed the extent to which they might be involved, e.g. PR says she undressed JonBenet for bed, JR says not. Just as the R's cannot predict the BPD's future actions, so this tells you the R's had a sub-agenda, one that facilitated their version of events.


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BBM

What do you mean?




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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
mmm, your speculation regarding the R's intentions is interesting. Just how would the kidnappers kill a girl that an autopsy might consider was killed many hours ago, i.e. using livor mortis as an indicator one can quickly rule out the kidnappers enacting some kind of post-abduction homicide, since it does not fall within the "kill her" mandate which is post the 911 call, yet JonBenet's corpse has being lying, demonstratively so, in the wine-cellar for hours!

I doubt they were thinking all the forensic aspects of her death through. I don't think they were thinking that it could be determined that she didn't die AFTER the 911 call at 6 am that morning, but rather 6 hours earlier. They were not forensic experts. To them, dead is dead. After all, JR carried the body of his daughter, so stiff he held her upright like a mannequin, she was gray and stinking, and yet asked Det Arndt "is she dead?". He KNEW she was. Keep in mind that at this point, JB had already been bashed on the head, so they were faced with having a dead child that had NO apparent, visible cause of death. The garrote was made so that anyone looking at her would immediately know what killed her. Of course, we know via the autopsy that she was still alive when the garrote was applied. But I bet THEY did not know.

 

[UKGuy]

I doubt they were thinking all the forensic aspects of her death through. I don't think they were thinking that it could be determined that she didn't die AFTER the 911 call at 6 am that morning, but rather 6 hours earlier. They were not forensic experts. To them, dead is dead. After all, JR carried the body of his daughter, so stiff he held her upright like a mannequin, she was gray and stinking, and yet asked Det Arndt "is she dead?". He KNEW she was. Keep in mind that at this point, JB had already been bashed on the head, so they were faced with having a dead child that had NO apparent, visible cause of death. The garrote was made so that anyone looking at her would immediately know what killed her. Of course, we know via the autopsy that she was still alive when the garrote was applied. But I bet THEY did not know.

DeeDee249,
mmm, so just how can the R's claim that the kidnappers magically killed JonBenet because they never followed the RN rules? Were the kidnappers secretly hiding in the wine-cellar, did they air-lift themselves into the R's house, so to kill JonBenet?

There appears absolutely no basis to suggest that the R's might claim that the kidnappers killed JonBenet due to non-compliance with the RN.

As you say dead is dead and the R's knew JonBenet was dead, so no amount of posturing is going to convince anyone else that the kidnappers did this as a result of not following the RN?

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[UKGuy]

BBM

What do you mean?




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Mama2JML,
That they played different roles, each role explained away various forensic evidence, i.e. longjohns and any of BR's forensic links found down in the basement, but notably not in the Breakfast Bar!

JR wanted no link to undressing JonBenet, but allegedly his shirt fibers were found in JonBenet's size-12 underwear. PR lies through her teeth for JR saying she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, yet according to BPD they found none in the drawer.

So is this an example where JR and PR did not collaborate, was it JR who wiped JonBenet clean, and redressed her in the size-12's, leaving PR to pick up the pieces at the BPD interview?

All in all JR has minimized his alleged involvement in the staging of JonBenet's homicide.



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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
mmm, so just how can the R's claim that the kidnappers magically killed JonBenet because they never followed the RN rules? Were the kidnappers secretly hiding in the wine-cellar, did they air-lift themselves into the R's house, so to kill JonBenet?

There appears absolutely no basis to suggest that the R's might claim that the kidnappers killed JonBenet due to non-compliance with the RN.

As you say dead is dead and the R's knew JonBenet was dead, so no amount of posturing is going to convince anyone else that the kidnappers did this as a result of not following the RN?

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Not only do I disagree that there is no basis for the Rs to claim the "kidnappers" killed JB because they did not follow the RN, I think it is the ONLY reason they wrote the note in the first place. How better to explain their dead daughter ( fatally injured by a family member) than to say that she was kidnapped, then killed by the kidnappers because they disobeyed the RN's instructions not to call anyone.

 

[questfortrue]

Not only do I disagree that there is no basis for the Rs to claim the "kidnappers" killed JB because they did not follow the RN, I think it is the ONLY reason they wrote the note in the first place. How better to explain their dead daughter ( fatally injured by a family member) than to say that she was kidnapped, then killed by the kidnappers because they disobeyed the RN's instructions not to call anyone.

And PR's on the phone without even reading the entire note! :doh:

Strictly my opinion, of course . . .
but they couldn’t have been more obvious if they’d put up a banner, ”Hey, foreign faction/kidnappers, we went against your instructions.”

 

[otg]

And PR's on the phone without even reading the entire note! :doh: Strictly my opinion, of course . . . but they couldn’t have been more obvious if they’d put up a banner, ”Hey, foreign faction/kidnappers, we went against your instructions.”

That's what I love about this clip from the movie, "Ruthless People": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QJoV6_o5mU (Thanks, cynic)

 

[UKGuy]

Not only do I disagree that there is no basis for the Rs to claim the "kidnappers" killed JB because they did not follow the RN, I think it is the ONLY reason they wrote the note in the first place. How better to explain their dead daughter ( fatally injured by a family member) than to say that she was kidnapped, then killed by the kidnappers because they disobeyed the RN's instructions not to call anyone.

DeeDee249,
Nope, its all smoke and mirrors. You are citing staging effects in defense of your explanation. The R's murdered JonBenet then staged her death to appear as a consequence of a kidnapping gone wrong.

This cannot then be interpreted as a result of not following the RN, since it predates the authoring of the RN, i.e. JonBenet was dead prior to the RN!

You have the cart before the horse. The R's might wish you to believe kidnappers abducted and killed JonBenet, but certainly not because it was written into the RN, since this was found by the R's after JonBenet was lying dead in the wine-cellar, and not provably before, i.e. the R's have no basis to harbor such a belief.

Anyway how do the R's intend to convince everyone else that the alleged kidnappers accessed the R's house to kill JonBenet for transgressing the requirements of the RN, with nobody, including BPD employees, noticing?

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[UKGuy]

And PR's on the phone without even reading the entire note! :doh:

Strictly my opinion, of course . . .
but they couldn’t have been more obvious if they’d put up a banner, ”Hey, foreign faction/kidnappers, we went against your instructions.”

questfortrue,
OK so how do the Foreign Faction/Kidnappers know all this, so they can sneak into the house and kill JonBenet? The RN is a staging artifact.

The 911 call is part of the staging, it is not that the R's really thought JonBenet was gone missing in a kidnapping, they knew where she was located, since they redressed her and killed her. That they broke their own mandated rules regarding the RN, does not mean it follows that everyone else also sheepishly falls in line with their line of thought, never mind if its credible.

The death of JonBenet precedes the RN, so the R's cannot claim non-compliance with the RN causes JonBenet's death, particularly when she is found in the R's house and not at some kidnappers external location.

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[questfortrue]

questfortrue,
OK so how do the Foreign Faction/Kidnappers know all this, so they can sneak into the house and kill JonBenet? The RN is a staging artifact.

The 911 call is part of the staging, it is not that the R's really thought JonBenet was gone missing in a kidnapping, they knew where she was located, since they redressed her and killed her. That they broke their own mandated rules regarding the RN, does not mean it follows that everyone else also sheepishly falls in line with their line of thought, never mind if its credible.

The death of JonBenet precedes the RN, so the R's cannot claim non-compliance with the RN causes JonBenet's death, particularly when she is found in the R's house and not at some kidnappers external location.

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From Wikipedia –common English usage, a Kabuki dance, or kabuki play, is an activity or drama carried out in real life in a predictable or stylized fashion, reminiscent of the Kabuki style of Japanese stage play. It refers to an event that is designed to create the appearance of conflict or of an uncertain outcome, when in fact the actors have worked together to determine the outcome beforehand.

UKGuy, I agree it doesn’t make sense. It’s easy to see there’s a difference between the concept of a kidnapping gone wrong with a body in the basement, and the idea that it would explain JB’s death to violate the instructions of the RN. But this was not a perfectly planned ruse. Nor were they experienced. (e.g., not familiar with concepts like livor mortis and rigor mortis.) They were operating by the seat of their pants, particularly when the BPD did not leave after a phone call from the kidnapper(s) did not come in. Some time this past year otg constructed examples of how frequently the Rs utilized what’s termed “Plan B”. “Plan B” comes into play to provide other clarifications, in the hope that one of their explanations would stick or would mitigate the circumstances they found themselves in.

Toss in some other behavior contributing to the bizarre flavor of this situation: After JB is placed beneath the tree, JR asks LA if JB is alive. When LA confirms that she is dead, JR moans a little and says “It has to be an inside job.” A Kabuki dance, and, counting the number of times “Plan B” comes into play, a fluctuating dance at that. Imo

 

[andreww]

I agree. I think the plan was to notify police, then, hoping they would leave at some point, move the body to another location. When it became evident that the cops weren't leaving, plan b took effect.

As to the Rs sitting down and rehearsing their version of events, I really don't think there was enough time to do that thoroughly, or beyond the basic events of the previous night. I believe the reason they chose the plot they did was because there was very little to memorize about it. JBR was
Asleep when we came home, JR carried her in, PR prepared her for bed, and that's it. Simple. The stumbling point is the half digested pineapple and the bowl with PRs fingerprints.

The staging happens when the Rs are supposed to be asleep. So really all they have to explain is those few minutes between the time they wake up and the time of the 911 call.

But they do a terrible job of that considering the time they need to leave to catch their flight. PR finds the note at about 5:45, about 45 mins before they are to be out the door and in a taxi. Yet no effort has been made to wake the children, the luggage isn't by the front door, no taxi has been called, and Patsy is on her way to make coffee and breakfast. In their testimony, both are very vague as to exactly what they did in those minutes leading up to the note being discovered. JR being in his underwear despite getting up first according to Patsy? Yet JR claims he was reading the note while Patsy called friends? When did he get dressed?

This wasn't perfectly planned at all.


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[elannia]

I agree. I think the plan was to notify police, then, hoping they would leave at some point, move the body to another location. When it became evident that the cops weren't leaving, plan b took effect.

As to the Rs sitting down and rehearsing their version of events, I really don't think there was enough time to do that thoroughly, or beyond the basic events of the previous night. I believe the reason they chose the plot they did was because there was very little to memorize about it. JBR was
Asleep when we came home, JR carried her in, PR prepared her for bed, and that's it. Simple. The stumbling point is the half digested pineapple and the bowl with PRs fingerprints.

The staging happens when the Rs are supposed to be asleep. So really all they have to explain is those few minutes between the time they wake up and the time of the 911 call.

But they do a terrible job of that considering the time they need to leave to catch their flight. PR finds the note at about 5:45, about 45 mins before they are to be out the door and in a taxi. Yet no effort has been made to wake the children, the luggage isn't by the front door, no taxi has been called, and Patsy is on her way to make coffee and breakfast. In their testimony, both are very vague as to exactly what they did in those minutes leading up to the note being discovered. JR being in his underwear despite getting up first according to Patsy? Yet JR claims he was reading the note while Patsy called friends? When did he get dressed?

This wasn't perfectly planned at all.


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I think it was mentioned(by JR of course) in DOI that he realized he was still in his underwear when patsy was phoning or had already called friends

 

[andreww]

I think it was mentioned(by JR of course) in DOI that he realized he was still in his underwear when patsy was phoning or had already called friends

Then when exactly did he get dressed? If he was there for the 911 call and the calls to friends, and also stated that he was there to greet the first responding officer, when did he get dressed? There was only 8 minutes from the 911 call to arrival. Even if she spoke for less than 2 minutes to each friend, I don't see him having time to get upstairs, change and be at the front door. And why didn't he mention that at his first interview?


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[elannia]

Then when exactly did he get dressed? If he was there for the 911 call and the calls to friends, and also stated that he was there to greet the first responding officer, when did he get dressed? There was only 8 minutes from the 911 call to arrival. Even if she spoke for less than 2 minutes to each friend, I don't see him having time to get upstairs, change and be at the front door. And why didn't he mention that at his first interview?


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Well in my opinion he was probably dressed the whole time. Supposedly he took a shower but this is coming from the R's so I find it hard to believe anything they said. Or maybe he took a shower after JB death and was dressed then. I have no idea. but imo he was already dressed... just as patsy was from wearing the night before clothes.

 

[elannia]

Im confused about the timing too(and of course we will never know) but if they had to be at the airport at 7(and since this was a friend flying them to MI, they could have been a few minutes late but I dont think so) they would not have had time imo to get up get dressed kids up fed and everything done in that little of time. I have 2 kids and I know it can be difficult getting them out of bed. But BR and JB were probably estatic about the trip so would have jumped outta bed im sure. Anyways, maybe JR did by his account get up to take a shower and fresh clothes on... but why not PR? Just doesnt make sense to me. And JR was at the airport the day before checking over things. Was the plane ever checked? Because supposedly he took the packages with him to the plane Christmas day