Happenings of December 26

[elannia]

I know this has been mentioned on threads before but was the WC really that hidden? Is that the reason for putting her there? Because looking at it its awful disgusting looking. Could she have been put in there knowing that she wouldnt be found by LE, and they would have gotten her outta the house after LE left? Because they had a flight to catch and JR had to phone pilot to inform him and then supposedly wait around for the next day when the "kidnappers" would call if the meaning was the 27th. So I wonder if that was the original plan. Keep her in WC, get her out when LE left after no call, then dispose of her. Then the R's could claim the "kidnappers" killed her for disobeying the RN when her body was eventually found.

 

[midwest mama]

IMO, everything written in the note led to the ability to remove JB'S body from the house so she could be "found" later when the pick-up was made. I believe the plan would have been for John to contact LE right after he had made the ransom delivery to a location where he could have planted an empty brown paper bag for the police to later test. He could have simply claimed the kidnappers took the money out of it. Or if there was no bag left, a paper bag could have easily been wioed around at the location to leave fiber evidence. The money was never going to be given up....it could have been stashed somewhere and easily used over a period of time in the future by a millionaire as pocket cash.

John would have contacted LE right after being "called" by the kidnappers and told where to go pick up his daughter, and made sure they arrived ahead of him so he would look uninvolved with the drop of her dead body and maybe even to act as protection to both him and Patsy (who I believe would have been along for the pick-up of JB ) once it was apparent how she was to be found.

If the note did not need to cover all the bases for getting JB out of the house and found dead (I believe on the 27th) a note simply left by an intruder killer with a vendetta against John Ramsey could have been just as effective:
"You fat cats think you can push around anyone? Big bonuses, fancy houses and a little Barbie beauty queen strutting her stuff? Well guess again...check out your wine cellar. Now who got pushed around?"

Both Ramseys get to play bonkers and call in the cops in time to stop the Michigan trip, etc. No need for a way to get her out of the house.

The problem with JR making it all work was that call made by Patsy when she did.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't think the Rs really gave much thought to whether anyone would know JB's death preceded writing the note. Of course, WE know she was already dead because forensics has proven this. But at the time, in that moment, the parents were not thinking about this.

 

[elannia]

I don't think the Rs really gave much thought to whether anyone would know JB's death preceded writing the note. Of course, WE know she was already dead because forensics has proven this. But at the time, in that moment, the parents were not thinking about this.

DeeDee, you have given me a thought... So JB is "kidnapped" while the 3 members of her family are sleeping and they wake to find her gone and a RN. Well according to the RN if they talk to anyone she dies. Well is everyone to believe that after she was kidnapped and taken from the home that after the RN clearly says not to talk to anyone they kill her AND return her to her home... dead... and place her in the WC and leave without being caught by the family. Because obviously if this "small foreign faction" took her they had to bring her back after the parents disobeyed the RN because she of course was found dead in their basement.

 

[elannia]

DeeDee, you have given me a thought... So JB is "kidnapped" while the 3 members of her family are sleeping and they wake to find her gone and a RN. Well according to the RN if they talk to anyone she dies. Well is everyone to believe that after she was kidnapped and taken from the home that after the RN clearly says not to talk to anyone they kill her AND return her to her home... dead... and place her in the WC and leave without being caught by the family. Because obviously if this "small foreign faction" took her they had to bring her back after the parents disobeyed the RN because she of course was found dead in their basement.

Just wanted to add that if this SFF were in the home and something went wrong and she was killed then that could explain the RN. They still wanted their money but she was dead, inside the home, hidden away. So to me this scenario doesn't make sense.

 

[andreww]

There is no evidence that says the RN was written before or after JBRs death. Logic would dictate that if it was the ramseys who wrote it, it was after. But if it was in fact an intruder, it more than likely was written before.

We just don't know what their plan was. Maybe they originally planned not to call LE. Maybe JR was going to quietly get the money, dump the body, then call police and say that he was just following directions. Maybe PR cracks under pressure and calls the cops. That would explain why there was no obvious sign of forced entry. Who knows what they were thinking?


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[UKGuy]

There is no evidence that says the RN was written before or after JBRs death. Logic would dictate that if it was the ramseys who wrote it, it was after. But if it was in fact an intruder, it more than likely was written before.

We just don't know what their plan was. Maybe they originally planned not to call LE. Maybe JR was going to quietly get the money, dump the body, then call police and say that he was just following directions. Maybe PR cracks under pressure and calls the cops. That would explain why there was no obvious sign of forced entry. Who knows what they were thinking?


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andreww,
You should be able to work out what the R's were thinking by analyzing their version of events, the forensic evidence and answers offered at interview.

There is no evidence of an intruder so that angle is not worth pursuing. Considering the Ramsey's options, as I see them, these are:

1. Deposit JonBenet somewhere in the house, but invisible.

2. Deposit JonBenet somewhere in the house, but visible.

3. Deposit JonBenet outside the house, but invisible.

4. Deposit JonBenet outside the house, but visible.

5. Deposit JonBenet in another state, but invisible.

I reckon the R's considered options 1, 2, 3, and 5.

Option 3. appears the most logical, yet was not undertaken despite the R's having the time and resources to complete it, so they must have rejected this option.

Option 2. was likely constructed by PR, either down in the basement, i.e. simulating an abduction or in JonBenet's bedroom.

Option 1. was likely JR's preferred compromise between all the options with Option 5. as Plan B. To explain away why JonBenet had moved from her bed and the R's version of events, the RN was injected into the staging along with the redressing of JonBenet, i.e. to match the version of events.

I think the R's always planned to fly away interstate and leave JonBenet behind. She was dead they were alive and wished to remain at liberty.



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[midwest mama]

andreww,
You should be able to work out what the R's were thinking by analyzing their version of events, the forensic evidence and answers offered at interview.

There is no evidence of an intruder so that angle is not worth pursuing. Considering the Ramsey's options, as I see them, these are:

1. Deposit JonBenet somewhere in the house, but invisible.

2. Deposit JonBenet somewhere in the house, but visible.

3. Deposit JonBenet outside the house, but invisible.

4. Deposit JonBenet outside the house, but visible.

5. Deposit JonBenet in another state, but invisible.

I reckon the R's considered options 1, 2, 3, and 5.

Option 3. appears the most logical, yet was not undertaken despite the R's having the time and resources to complete it, so they must have rejected this option.

Option 2. was likely constructed by PR, either down in the basement, i.e. simulating an abduction or in JonBenet's bedroom.

Option 1. was likely JR's preferred compromise between all the options with Option 5. as Plan B. To explain away why JonBenet had moved from her bed and the R's version of events, the RN was injected into the staging along with the redressing of JonBenet, i.e. to match the version of events.

I think the R's always planned to fly away interstate and leave JonBenet behind. She was dead they were alive and wished to remain at liberty.



.

So UKGuy, you think JR made that phone call after he brought JB's body up from the WC to get the plane readyto fly ALL 3 of the remaining Ramseys out of Boulder? A few questions: would he have released Archuletta at the airport and taken over the flight himself, then? What about the older kids supposed to meet them in Minneapolis? Would he have taken the $118K that Fernie had picked up for him the morning of the 26th.....to possibly use to assist a "getaway"....for additional fuel, hideaway accommodation, supplies, etc. Cash would not be traceable by authorities?

 

[andreww]

andreww,
You should be able to work out what the R's were thinking by analyzing their version of events, the forensic evidence and answers offered at interview.

There is no evidence of an intruder so that angle is not worth pursuing. Considering the Ramsey's options, as I see them, these are:

1. Deposit JonBenet somewhere in the house, but invisible.

2. Deposit JonBenet somewhere in the house, but visible.

3. Deposit JonBenet outside the house, but invisible.

4. Deposit JonBenet outside the house, but visible.

5. Deposit JonBenet in another state, but invisible.

I reckon the R's considered options 1, 2, 3, and 5.

Option 3. appears the most logical, yet was not undertaken despite the R's having the time and resources to complete it, so they must have rejected this option.

Option 2. was likely constructed by PR, either down in the basement, i.e. simulating an abduction or in JonBenet's bedroom.

Option 1. was likely JR's preferred compromise between all the options with Option 5. as Plan B. To explain away why JonBenet had moved from her bed and the R's version of events, the RN was injected into the staging along with the redressing of JonBenet, i.e. to match the version of events.

I think the R's always planned to fly away interstate and leave JonBenet behind. She was dead they were alive and wished to remain at liberty.



.

Not really following you here. In fact the pilot stated that the flight was off and that he offered to go and get the remaining family members and bring them back to Boulder. If the Rs had removed her body from the house, hidden it, then jumped on a plane, I think that would be an obvious indication of their guilt.

The evidence of fibers in that suitcase is a big clue. Was the plan to put JBR in that case and to take her somewhere else? She probably didn't fit, so that plan was scrapped.

Then we need to look at the timeline. The scream was heard between midnight and 2:00 am I believe. The Rs were expected to awake at 5:30 at the latest. So the only had a couple of hours to devise a plan and execute it. The RN probably took an hour or so. They needed to wipe down pieces of evidence. They needed to wash themselves down, and maybe do some laundry. Perhaps the plan was to remove the body but they simply ran out of time? If the 911 call had come even a half hour later, the cops would have wondered why they discovered her missing only minutes before they were supposed to leave.

So with no other options they put her in the WC and hoped for the best. When it becomes apparent that the cops are there for the long haul, JR moves the body to a more visible position in the WC, explaining why FW never saw it when he had searched. He then fabricates the story of finding the basement window unlatched (and securing it without telling anyone) to allow for an access point for the fictitious intruder.

I really don't see any evidence that they seriously conciderd flying out of there.


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[UKGuy]

So UKGuy, you think JR made that phone call after he brought JB's body up from the WC to get the plane readyto fly ALL 3 of the remaining Ramseys out of Boulder? A few questions: would he have released Archuletta at the airport and taken over the flight himself, then? What about the older kids supposed to meet them in Minneapolis? Would he have taken the $118K that Fernie had picked up for him the morning of the 26th.....to possibly use to assist a "getaway"....for additional fuel, hideaway accommodation, supplies, etc. Cash would not be traceable by authorities?

midwest mama,
BBM: Sure, he was hardly considering a vacation in Florida. Everyone else, possibly including BR, is collateral damage. If the case is JDI, then you can bet your bottom dollar that JR would have factored in the ransom demand as getaway money!

The R's could not predict the future, so they hoped to make it, by leaving Boulder ASAP. This was Plan A. There was no way they could explain away JonBenet's homicide, so they rolled the dice on a staged abduction, and it nearly worked, once the deadline had come and gone JR was moving into discovering JonBenet mode. Once found he attempts to fly out of Colorado immediately.

If the deadline was intended for the following day why did the R's not point this out and wait around for this future deadline, why the instant need to flee by plane interstate?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Not really following you here. In fact the pilot stated that the flight was off and that he offered to go and get the remaining family members and bring them back to Boulder. If the Rs had removed her body from the house, hidden it, then jumped on a plane, I think that would be an obvious indication of their guilt.

The evidence of fibers in that suitcase is a big clue. Was the plan to put JBR in that case and to take her somewhere else? She probably didn't fit, so that plan was scrapped.

Then we need to look at the timeline. The scream was heard between midnight and 2:00 am I believe. The Rs were expected to awake at 5:30 at the latest. So the only had a couple of hours to devise a plan and execute it. The RN probably took an hour or so. They needed to wipe down pieces of evidence. They needed to wash themselves down, and maybe do some laundry. Perhaps the plan was to remove the body but they simply ran out of time? If the 911 call had come even a half hour later, the cops would have wondered why they discovered her missing only minutes before they were supposed to leave.

So with no other options they put her in the WC and hoped for the best. When it becomes apparent that the cops are there for the long haul, JR moves the body to a more visible position in the WC, explaining why FW never saw it when he had searched. He then fabricates the story of finding the basement window unlatched (and securing it without telling anyone) to allow for an access point for the fictitious intruder.

I really don't see any evidence that they seriously conciderd flying out of there.


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andreww,
The R's had Option 4. which means JonBenet could have been deposited a few blocks away from the house, no vehicle required, etc.

This could have been undertaken in minutes not hours, and would have partitioned the case into a potential Intruder Abduction.

If the case is RDI then they wish to remain at liberty. They do not wish to hang around to discuss the merits of their timing or available forensic evidence, they wish to place themselves beyond the reach of the US extradition treaties!

The R's were probably expecting to be arrested that morning, JR likely had some kind of minimal criminal defense prepared. If there was no arrest and JonBenet was not found quickly, then the R's planned to leave Boulder ASAP.

The R's did not have a crystal ball so never knew how things would pan out, if BPD officials left them, I'll bet they would have just flown out of Colorado, and claimed ignorance if cadaver dogs then sniffed out JonBenet!

.

 

[andreww]

andreww,
The R's had Option 4. which means JonBenet could have been deposited a few blocks away from the house, no vehicle required, etc.

This could have been undertaken in minutes not hours, and would have partitioned the case into a potential Intruder Abduction.

If the case is RDI then they wish to remain at liberty. They do not wish to hang around to discuss the merits of their timing or available forensic evidence, they wish to place themselves beyond the reach of the US extradition treaties!

The R's were probably expecting to be arrested that morning, JR likely had some kind of minimal criminal defense prepared. If there was no arrest and JonBenet was not found quickly, then the R's planned to leave Boulder ASAP.

The R's did not have a crystal ball so never knew how things would pan out, if BPD officials left them, I'll bet they would have just flown out of Colorado, and claimed ignorance if cadaver dogs then sniffed out JonBenet!

.

BBM. Somehow I don't think that would have been possible. You are talking about a well populated suburban area and the hour was approaching daybreak. With a missing child alert, she would have been found within a few hours. I believe they wanted her disappearance to be permanent and figured they'd hide her where nobody would expect, right under their noses. I think they saw this as the new "Lindburg kidnapping". JR, with his passion for aviation, would have been very familiar with that case. I don't see that as a coincidence either!

 

[elannia]

What would have helped alot in this case is if the coroner would have tested algor mortis to determine TOD. Then we would know an estimate of what time she died and then the R's version of events. There was another test too that could have been done but cannot remember(eye or something) but anyways im not putting blame on Meyer (he didnt even arrive till 8:00pm, strange to me) but that could have helped with the investigation and knowing what happened that night(somewhat)

 

[DeeDee249]

andreww,
The R's had Option 4. which means JonBenet could have been deposited a few blocks away from the house, no vehicle required, etc.

This could have been undertaken in minutes not hours, and would have partitioned the case into a potential Intruder Abduction.

If the case is RDI then they wish to remain at liberty. They do not wish to hang around to discuss the merits of their timing or available forensic evidence, they wish to place themselves beyond the reach of the US extradition treaties!

The R's were probably expecting to be arrested that morning, JR likely had some kind of minimal criminal defense prepared. If there was no arrest and JonBenet was not found quickly, then the R's planned to leave Boulder ASAP.

The R's did not have a crystal ball so never knew how things would pan out, if BPD officials left them, I'll bet they would have just flown out of Colorado, and claimed ignorance if cadaver dogs then sniffed out JonBenet!

.

I don't see them walking down the street with a suitcase (JB inside). If they were worried about a vehicle being seen/heard, they'd be so much more worried about being seen (much more easily) just walking away from the house at a very suspicious time of night. A neighbor reported seeing "strange moving lights" (aka someone walking with a flashlight) around midnight. People are up late Christmas night. Cleaning up after a late dinner, tidying up the gifts under the tree, etc. It's a very busy day- I was always lucky to get to bed before midnight when I hosted my family for Christmas Dinner, even when dinner was 3 pm.

 

[andreww]

I don't think they were planning to walk away with her in a suitcase. They possibly planned to drive somewhere, disposing of her far away from the house. You have to realize the risk involved. Maybe it's 5:30 am, it's a holiday and everybody in the neighborhood is home, and if one jogger or dog walker spots JR leaving the home a that time, the game is over.

I'm also not 100% convinced that PR didn't make that 911 call without JRs knowledge. There has been speculation that someone can be heard saying "what have you done?" at the end of the call. So maybe there was a disagreement about the course of action and PR made the call as JR showered
and dressed. So many ways this could have gone down and all we have is the Ramsey's story, which is full of lies IMO.


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[FreeSafety36]

I still believe the plan that morning was to take JAR's suitcase out of the house with JB's body inside it. The reasoning the R's would claim for taking it out of the house is that it fits the criteria for the "large attache" that they were supposed to put the money in (as if an actual kidnapper cares about the size of the container). JR, who'd showered and would thus not have anything on him from the previous night, would drop the suitcase containing JB's body off somewhere, make a quick call home from a payphone (which the R's would later claim was the SFF with instructions), go to the bank and withdraw the money then return home. Sometime after he made the call home from a payphone, PR was going to call the Fernies/Whites/whomever for moral support (which would violate the instructions not to talk to anyone) and then after she wasn't returned, call police. JR would tell police where he was instructed to drop the money, police would go there to investigate, find the suitcase with JB inside, which the R's would claim proved the SFF had taken her, as the money was gone and her body now inside, dead because PR had violated the instructions of the RN and called friends over to the house.

IMO something happened while JR was in the shower, maybe PR couldn't stand the thought of her outside in the cold (just one of many possibilities) and deviated from the plan. She realized she had to call police right then at that very moment to prevent the plan from going forward.

I realize that still leaves a lot of problems, but I also realize none of the R's were experienced in staging kidnappings or murders, so even huge blunders can't disqualify a theory.

 

[FreeSafety36]

I still believe the plan that morning was to take JAR's suitcase out of the house with JB's body inside it. The reasoning the R's would claim for taking it out of the house is that it fits the criteria for the "large attache" that they were supposed to put the money in (as if an actual kidnapper cares about the size of the container). JR, who'd showered and would thus not have anything on him from the previous night, would drop the suitcase containing JB's body off somewhere, make a quick call home from a payphone (which the R's would later claim was the SFF with instructions), go to the bank and withdraw the money then return home. Sometime after he made the call home from a payphone, PR was going to call the Fernies/Whites/whomever for moral support (which would violate the instructions not to talk to anyone) and then after she wasn't returned, call police. JR would tell police where he was instructed to drop the money, police would go there to investigate, find the suitcase with JB inside, which the R's would claim proved the SFF had taken her, as the money was gone and her body now inside, dead because PR had violated the instructions of the RN and called friends over to the house.

IMO something happened while JR was in the shower, maybe PR couldn't stand the thought of her outside in the cold (just one of many possibilities) and deviated from the plan. She realized she had to call police right then at that very moment to prevent the plan from going forward.

I realize that still leaves a lot of problems, but I also realize none of the R's were experienced in staging kidnappings or murders, so even huge blunders can't disqualify a theory.

 

[questfortrue]

~RSBM~
The problem with JR making it all work was that call made by Patsy when she did.

~RSBM~
I'm also not 100% convinced that PR didn't make that 911 call without JRs knowledge. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are additional behaviors which indicate the Rs were not exactly on the same page. Although the victim advocate (Morlock) told detectives she had seen JR and PR sitting together in the dining room, holding each other and talking, it’s not stated when in the morning that occurred. It could have been fear based that their role might be found out. Also, that “closeness” was not observed by the detectives who claimed that PR and JR rarely sat together. They did not hold onto one another for dear life after this tragedy, as would be expected after having been attacked by a foreign faction.

Another hint is from the RN, the change in how the RN was addressed, and some kind of change of tone at the end of the RN (my interpretation, though others have noted this too).

The practice note started off addressed to Mr. and Mrs. R, but the real RN was only addressed to JR. That there may have existed some notes written out by PR, and having been dictated by JR has been proposed over the years. Since JR was the one who liked crime novels, was the one to select videos to watch, it would stand to reason he may have contributed verbiage to the RN. (The terms deviation of instead of deviation from would be framed by someone accustomed to math/science/engineering.) And what was further noted by LW, housekeeper, was in her statement, quoted in PMPT: It was his voice in the ransom note and her hands. I can see it in my mind. She’s sitting there. We need paper, we need a note. He’s dictating and she’s doing. Like he’s almost snapping his fingers. She grabbed her notepad and her felt-tip pen. That is not her language. But the essence of her is there, like the percentages: “99% chance” and “100% chance.” That is how she talked because of her cancer or how you talk when you are around someone with cancer. And the phrase “that good southern common sense of yours.” John wasn’t from the South, but Patsy and Nedra always teased him about being from the South.

However, for me, it is the closing of the RN which seems to veer from PR simply taking dictation for this. It definitely sounds menacing and can be interpreted a few different ways: Of course, tritely, as a warning to JR from the foreign faction, he’d better do as he was told or else. But also, PR saying to JR: “This charade is your idea, you’d better carry it off.” Or “You’d better do this my way, or else.” Quoted from the RN: It is up to you now, John!

Lastly from McCrary of the FBI, on 48 hours: "Separate attorneys to me almost speaks of a conflict of interest," McCrary continues. "In other words, why couldn't one attorney represent both of them if their interests were the same?"
JMHO

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think they were planning to walk away with her in a suitcase. They possibly planned to drive somewhere, disposing of her far away from the house. You have to realize the risk involved. Maybe it's 5:30 am, it's a holiday and everybody in the neighborhood is home, and if one jogger or dog walker spots JR leaving the home a that time, the game is over.

I'm also not 100% convinced that PR didn't make that 911 call without JRs knowledge. There has been speculation that someone can be heard saying "what have you done?" at the end of the call. So maybe there was a disagreement about the course of action and PR made the call as JR showered
and dressed. So many ways this could have gone down and all we have is the Ramsey's story, which is full of lies IMO.


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andreww,
Suitcase, bag, blanket. Whatever they used, this was one option the R's had. In a sense it was slightly better than the Abduction Scenario, since it appeared to separate them from the crime-scene. I itemized the options hoping to emphasis that the R's were selective in their choice, i.e. it was not random!

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[UKGuy]

I don't see them walking down the street with a suitcase (JB inside). If they were worried about a vehicle being seen/heard, they'd be so much more worried about being seen (much more easily) just walking away from the house at a very suspicious time of night. A neighbor reported seeing "strange moving lights" (aka someone walking with a flashlight) around midnight. People are up late Christmas night. Cleaning up after a late dinner, tidying up the gifts under the tree, etc. It's a very busy day- I was always lucky to get to bed before midnight when I hosted my family for Christmas Dinner, even when dinner was 3 pm.

DeeDee249,
BBM: nor me. yet it was an option they had, one that would have made the Intruder scenario much more credible. They must have percieved constraints on whatever they could do.

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