Happenings of December 26

[Tadpole12]

midwest mama,
BBM: Sure, he was hardly considering a vacation in Florida. Everyone else, possibly including BR, is collateral damage. If the case is JDI, then you can bet your bottom dollar that JR would have factored in the ransom demand as getaway money!

The R's could not predict the future, so they hoped to make it, by leaving Boulder ASAP. This was Plan A. There was no way they could explain away JonBenet's homicide, so they rolled the dice on a staged abduction, and it nearly worked, once the deadline had come and gone JR was moving into discovering JonBenet mode. Once found he attempts to fly out of Colorado immediately.

If the deadline was intended for the following day why did the R's not point this out and wait around for this future deadline, why the instant need to flee by plane interstate?


.

If the deadline was intended for the following day why did the R's not point this out and wait around for this future deadline, why the instant need to flee by plane interstate?

Heyya UKGuy

Right, but if the deadline was to be interpreted as such,
http://www.mining-journal.com/__dat...013/204610/Salamancas-Anatomy-of-a-Kidnap.pdf

then realistically the process, time frame, would have been extended past a point where the decomposition of JBR's body
was not detectable; so when PR triggers the chain of events where the residence is not a location observable by FBI, (at a distance),
and the Ramsey surely do not want to be taken to a secondary location, confined and monitored,
then would not a consolation for the Ramsey be that at least two members of the family, not needed for negotiation purposes, could hop on the plane.

Hmmm, just turning it over in my mind.

BUT, recently, it's back to point zero for me,

why do the Ramsey's have the pervy DR S book in their home
who owns a book like that
who owns a book like that, if you have toddlers
Is it available at the library
http://nypl.bibliocommons.com/item/show/13155246052907_the_seven_lady_godivas
WT

 

[DeeDee249]

Rigor was already forming, and no way could she have been "folded" into that suitcase. Or anything else. I believe the plan was never to remove her from the house. The plan IMO, was to keep her hidden until police left - and then say she had been "returned", and when they realized police were not going to leave, plan B was to "find" her themselves and hope the "kidnaping" story still worked.

 

[midwest mama]

Rigor was already forming, and no way could she have been "folded" into that suitcase. Or anything else. I believe the plan was never to remove her from the house. The plan IMO, was to keep her hidden until police left - and then say she had been "returned", and when they realized police were not going to leave, plan B was to "find" her themselves and hope the "kidnaping" story still worked.

Yes, IMO, it makes sense that if the plan was to have the ransom note provide for all aspects of the crime to actually appear later to LE as an actual "intruder kidnapping gone awry", JB could have been stashed in the WC with the thought that John would "get her back after making the ransom drop". Since the note shows the word "delivery" crossed out and replaced by "pick up", is it possible that John would later have told LE that once the drop was made, a call from the SFF told him to come pick up his daughter at "X" location, and he would have simply gone there with her wrapped body in his car to hysterically call LE from that spot? And the ruse would have been carried off according to the plan and the threats of the RN?

I agree that if any of the calls made on the morning of the 26th were as a reason for JB to be "killed" by the "kidnappers", it was assumed that LE would eventually leave the house and there would then be time to get her body out of the house. But only if JR was able to bypass any tails that LE surely would have placed upon him, so that makes me wonder.

I still think the ransom money would never have actually been placed in the "brown paper bag" that was supposed to have been dropped....with the action of it faked, and even in a spot where there was a chance JR would have been seen by a witness who could have later corroborated that part of the scheme to LE.

 

[andreww]

The more I think about it, the more I think that the Ramsey's plan went off exactly as it was supposed to. If JB was killed between midnight and 2:00 am, and the plan had been to remove her from the house, why not take advantage of that late hour and the cover of darkness to do it. That certainly would have been the priority. But I'm starting to think that they wanted to keep the charade within their own home where there was absolutely no chance of anybody else witnessing anything. If JR had dumped the body, it might have made their story only slightly more believable, but all it would take would be one witness or cc camera to catch his vehicle and they would be done. It would be very naive to think that the cops would ever leave, and even if they did it would be impossible to move the body with the city on high alert.

The plan IMO was to introduce the intruder theory via the note, sterilize the crime scene, then let the cops try to prove that they were lying. As long as John and Patsy remained faithful to their version of the events, there was absolutely no chance of proving them guilty.

The attempted getaway to Atlanta was an effort by JR to avoid giving a detailed interview. He probably knew that Patsy was the weak link at that point and that if they gave separate interviews early on, that Patsy would likely deviate from the story. This is further supported by the fact that it took a full 4 months to be interviewed.

The plan is actually rock solid. They knew that they would immediately be looked at as suspects, and being they were the only witness', this gave them the perfect excuse to be uncooperative. Without witnesses and certain evidence that was destroyed, the case became impossible to prove.

JR is a smart guy. He knew that his staging didn't have to be perfect. He knew that he probably always would be suspected in the court of public opinion. But he knew that case could never be won and really wasn't important. The important thing was to not have anything that would tie him to that murder, and he seems to have accomplished that very well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[UKGuy]

Heyya UKGuy

Right, but if the deadline was to be interpreted as such,
http://www.mining-journal.com/__dat...013/204610/Salamancas-Anatomy-of-a-Kidnap.pdf

then realistically the process, time frame, would have been extended past a point where the decomposition of JBR's body
was not detectable; so when PR triggers the chain of events where the residence is not a location observable by FBI, (at a distance),
and the Ramsey surely do not want to be taken to a secondary location, confined and monitored,
then would not a consolation for the Ramsey be that at least two members of the family, not needed for negotiation purposes, could hop on the plane.

Hmmm, just turning it over in my mind.

BUT, recently, it's back to point zero for me,

why do the Ramsey's have the pervy DR S book in their home
who owns a book like that
who owns a book like that, if you have toddlers
Is it available at the library
http://nypl.bibliocommons.com/item/show/13155246052907_the_seven_lady_godivas
WT

Tadpole12,
That Salamancas graphic is a nice breakdown of a Kidnapping. The R's knew in advance that they could never provide Proof of Life so even extending the negotiating timeline forward does not seem to offer them much advantage.

I view the Ransom Note as part of the staging, it cannot be a script outlining potential future events, since the R's were under various constraints, i.e. their own ignorance, their inability to predict what might happen next.

So although there may be a clause in the RN, detailing JonBenet's death as a consequence of communicating with the authorities. This would never explain away why JonBenet would be found in the house. So if the RN clause was a genuine attempt at planning then the R's must have had another plan which they abandoned?

The Dr Suess book seems a curious item for a University student to have stuffed in his suitcase, Playboy maybe, Dr Suess not really. I reckon the suitcase was intended to play some role in a prior staging, its significant that JR claims ownership over the suitcase, saying he moved it. Its possible they held the collection of photographs found elsewhere in the basement?

Maybe BR borrowed the Dr. Suess book?


.

 

[UKGuy]

I still believe the plan that morning was to take JAR's suitcase out of the house with JB's body inside it. The reasoning the R's would claim for taking it out of the house is that it fits the criteria for the "large attache" that they were supposed to put the money in (as if an actual kidnapper cares about the size of the container). JR, who'd showered and would thus not have anything on him from the previous night, would drop the suitcase containing JB's body off somewhere, make a quick call home from a payphone (which the R's would later claim was the SFF with instructions), go to the bank and withdraw the money then return home. Sometime after he made the call home from a payphone, PR was going to call the Fernies/Whites/whomever for moral support (which would violate the instructions not to talk to anyone) and then after she wasn't returned, call police. JR would tell police where he was instructed to drop the money, police would go there to investigate, find the suitcase with JB inside, which the R's would claim proved the SFF had taken her, as the money was gone and her body now inside, dead because PR had violated the instructions of the RN and called friends over to the house.

IMO something happened while JR was in the shower, maybe PR couldn't stand the thought of her outside in the cold (just one of many possibilities) and deviated from the plan. She realized she had to call police right then at that very moment to prevent the plan from going forward.

I realize that still leaves a lot of problems, but I also realize none of the R's were experienced in staging kidnappings or murders, so even huge blunders can't disqualify a theory.

FreeSafety36,
BBM: Yes, this could have been the original plan. Your reasoning is entirely consistent with Options 4. and 5. It might even be the R's intended to stage Option 2. employing the Samsonite suitcase as part of the Intruders exit strategy. Once the R's realized they were operating under forensic and rigor mortis constraints, they abandonded this approach for that of Option 3?

If JR was familiar with the timing of rigor mortis then factoring this in, its possible JR considered Option 5. as their answer if the BPD left them alone in the house, i.e. they would leave to fly off interstate with JonBenet packed into the samonsite suitcase, depositing her somewhere remote in another state?



.

 

[andreww]

Was it ever confirmed to be the seven goodies book? Only thing I can find about it was that a Suess book was found in the suitcase according to Tom Haney in an interview with Patsy. He doesn't identify the title however.

Heyya UKGuy

Right, but if the deadline was to be interpreted as such,
http://www.mining-journal.com/__dat...013/204610/Salamancas-Anatomy-of-a-Kidnap.pdf

then realistically the process, time frame, would have been extended past a point where the decomposition of JBR's body
was not detectable; so when PR triggers the chain of events where the residence is not a location observable by FBI, (at a distance),
and the Ramsey surely do not want to be taken to a secondary location, confined and monitored,
then would not a consolation for the Ramsey be that at least two members of the family, not needed for negotiation purposes, could hop on the plane.

Hmmm, just turning it over in my mind.

BUT, recently, it's back to point zero for me,

why do the Ramsey's have the pervy DR S book in their home
who owns a book like that
who owns a book like that, if you have toddlers
Is it available at the library
http://nypl.bibliocommons.com/item/show/13155246052907_the_seven_lady_godivas
WT

 

[deca]

Well, I think a lot of the pieces of the puzzle that don't fit in to any particular theory exist because the murder was not planned prior to that night. I believe if it had been carefully planned, a lot of the strange tidbits we worry over wouldn't exist. The coverup would have been methodical and well rehearsed, with a lot less errors, both in their story and in the crime scene. IMO they switched plans multiple times that night, each time leaving some weird thing out of place.

ie Maybe for a short time they did consider putting her into the suitcase, but then decided it was too risky to leave the house- neighbors could see them, security cameras could catch them, and footsteps in the snow could linger for the cops to see. That is why the suitcase was there.

I always imagine that night/morning was very chaotic, with the Rs running around, arguing with each other about what to do- probably fighting with each other- moving things around the house. A very frantic scene until they realized time was running out and they needed to start acting for their audience. Their "lines" were not well rehearsed and things like the ransom note were not executed in logical way. I am sure after the fact that they sweated the ransom note (Why the h*ll did we right a huge note?) among other things.

 

[tweezybird]

I remember seeing a post (sorry can't find it now) that was a list of items seized from the home and if you looked carefully you could see it said something like, "adult Dr. Suess book"

Was it ever confirmed to be the seven goodies book? Only thing I can find about it was that a Suess book was found in the suitcase according to Tom Haney in an interview with Patsy. He doesn't identify the title however.

 

[andreww]

Hmmm, a very odd thing to have indeed. Very rare as well. I wonder if JAR was questioned about it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[xjd]

Probably the most popular "adult" Dr Seuss book is "Oh, the Places You'll Go". It's often given as a graduation gift, maybe someone gave it to JAR for that reason. I used to work at a bookstore, we sold hundreds of copies every year at graduation time. Maybe that is the "adult" Seuss book referred to?

 

[andreww]

Just because it was in that suitcase, doesn't mean it was JARs. The suitcase was a prop IMO, both in its location and contents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tml]

Good observations. True that there were multiple parties involved perhaps necessitating the early morning 911 call. You are right, the R's couldn't very well tell their pilot and older children the trip was postponed without giving a reason. This only serves to further cement my ideas about RDI theories.

IN THEORY, if this was a genuine kidnapping, IDI, then let's take a step back. If you were JR, and you just found out JBR was kidnapped for ransom, would there not be the thought that maybe they could just figure it all out on their own? I.E., the older kids were certainly old enough to be told the truth about postponing the trip - telling them and instructing them to stay quiet while daddy quietly gets the ransom money. Remember who this family was. Doesn't seem like a far stretch to me. But, we know this didn't happen. My ideas break down like this:

Genuine kidnapping/IDI:
Ramsey options:
1) Call the cops
2) As per the ransom note, keep quiet, get the money, get JBR.

THAT'S IT. THOSE ARE THE OPTIONS. Now, if YOU were worth millions and this happened to YOU, would you attempt to work with the kidnappers under their instructions first? I would. The R's didn't. Why?

If RDI did it, here are the options:
1) Leave JBR in house, stage kidnapping, call police. Feign total and complete innocence. "Find" body later.
2) Take JBR to an outside location, stage kidnapping, call police. Feign total and complete innocence. "Find" body later.
3) Take JBR to an outside location, do NOTHING in the house, no attempt at staging, simply a "we woke up our kid is gone" thing. Why NOT go this route?
4) Admit to some sort of devastating accident. Accept consequences.

We know that 2, 3, and 4 did not happen. I'm sure there are other scenarios we could think up, but these seem most obvious. Now, assuming that option 1 is what was running through the R's minds that night, I can see why placing the 911 call when it was placed COULD seem logical, in order to flesh out the "kidnapping" theory. But it just seems misplaced to me in the order of events. Now, I'm not saying this was planned. If anything I think that whatever happened was unexpected and this haywire plan concocted hastily in the middle of the night, obviously leaving plenty of room for error. The phone call just really gets me in terms of PR's guilt/innocence. I cannot reconcile the call with her knowing the truth about what happened.

 

[UKGuy]

Good observations. True that there were multiple parties involved perhaps necessitating the early morning 911 call. You are right, the R's couldn't very well tell their pilot and older children the trip was postponed without giving a reason. This only serves to further cement my ideas about RDI theories.

IN THEORY, if this was a genuine kidnapping, IDI, then let's take a step back. If you were JR, and you just found out JBR was kidnapped for ransom, would there not be the thought that maybe they could just figure it all out on their own? I.E., the older kids were certainly old enough to be told the truth about postponing the trip - telling them and instructing them to stay quiet while daddy quietly gets the ransom money. Remember who this family was. Doesn't seem like a far stretch to me. But, we know this didn't happen. My ideas break down like this:

Genuine kidnapping/IDI:
Ramsey options:
1) Call the cops
2) As per the ransom note, keep quiet, get the money, get JBR.

THAT'S IT. THOSE ARE THE OPTIONS. Now, if YOU were worth millions and this happened to YOU, would you attempt to work with the kidnappers under their instructions first? I would. The R's didn't. Why?

If RDI did it, here are the options:
1) Leave JBR in house, stage kidnapping, call police. Feign total and complete innocence. "Find" body later.
2) Take JBR to an outside location, stage kidnapping, call police. Feign total and complete innocence. "Find" body later.
3) Take JBR to an outside location, do NOTHING in the house, no attempt at staging, simply a "we woke up our kid is gone" thing. Why NOT go this route?
4) Admit to some sort of devastating accident. Accept consequences.

We know that 2, 3, and 4 did not happen. I'm sure there are other scenarios we could think up, but these seem most obvious. Now, assuming that option 1 is what was running through the R's minds that night, I can see why placing the 911 call when it was placed COULD seem logical, in order to flesh out the "kidnapping" theory. But it just seems misplaced to me in the order of events. Now, I'm not saying this was planned. If anything I think that whatever happened was unexpected and this haywire plan concocted hastily in the middle of the night, obviously leaving plenty of room for error. The phone call just really gets me in terms of PR's guilt/innocence. I cannot reconcile the call with her knowing the truth about what happened.

tml,
ITA. What you suggest makes sense to me. The R's had the collateral to pay off any ransom, so dialling 911 seems bizarre?

Another, but obvious, option was:

5) stage a home assault, say in JonBenet's bedroom, possibly terminating in the basement. So R's wake up, find JonBenet dead then dial 911.

This is what I reckoned happened originally but JR decided the kidnapping scenario might allow them to buy time?

.

 

[THE BUNK]

Good observations. True that there were multiple parties involved perhaps necessitating the early morning 911 call. You are right, the R's couldn't very well tell their pilot and older children the trip was postponed without giving a reason. This only serves to further cement my ideas about RDI theories.

IN THEORY, if this was a genuine kidnapping, IDI, then let's take a step back. If you were JR, and you just found out JBR was kidnapped for ransom, would there not be the thought that maybe they could just figure it all out on their own? I.E., the older kids were certainly old enough to be told the truth about postponing the trip - telling them and instructing them to stay quiet while daddy quietly gets the ransom money. Remember who this family was. Doesn't seem like a far stretch to me. But, we know this didn't happen. My ideas break down like this:

Genuine kidnapping/IDI:
Ramsey options:
1) Call the cops
2) As per the ransom note, keep quiet, get the money, get JBR.

THAT'S IT. THOSE ARE THE OPTIONS. Now, if YOU were worth millions and this happened to YOU, would you attempt to work with the kidnappers under their instructions first? I would. The R's didn't. Why?

If RDI did it, here are the options:
1) Leave JBR in house, stage kidnapping, call police. Feign total and complete innocence. "Find" body later.
2) Take JBR to an outside location, stage kidnapping, call police. Feign total and complete innocence. "Find" body later.
3) Take JBR to an outside location, do NOTHING in the house, no attempt at staging, simply a "we woke up our kid is gone" thing. Why NOT go this route?
4) Admit to some sort of devastating accident. Accept consequences.

We know that 2, 3, and 4 did not happen. I'm sure there are other scenarios we could think up, but these seem most obvious. Now, assuming that option 1 is what was running through the R's minds that night, I can see why placing the 911 call when it was placed COULD seem logical, in order to flesh out the "kidnapping" theory. But it just seems misplaced to me in the order of events. Now, I'm not saying this was planned. If anything I think that whatever happened was unexpected and this haywire plan concocted hastily in the middle of the night, obviously leaving plenty of room for error. The phone call just really gets me in terms of PR's guilt/innocence. I cannot reconcile the call with her knowing the truth about what happened.

IN THEORY, if this was a genuine kidnapping, IDI, then let's take a step back. If you were JR, and you just found out JBR was kidnapped for ransom, would there not be the thought that maybe they could just figure it all out on their own? I.E., the older kids were certainly old enough to be told the truth about postponing the trip - telling them and instructing them to stay quiet while daddy quietly gets the ransom money. Remember who this family was. Doesn't seem like a far stretch to me. But, we know this didn't happen. My ideas break down like this:

Genuine kidnapping/IDI:
Ramsey options:
1) Call the cops
2) As per the ransom note, keep quiet, get the money, get JBR.

THAT'S IT. THOSE ARE THE OPTIONS. Now, if YOU were worth millions and this happened to YOU, would you attempt to work with the kidnappers under their instructions first? I would. The R's didn't. Why?

Even more strange, why would the Ramseys assume they would be suspects in the ransom kidnapping of their own daughter. Especially since they have a piece of evidence in their hands that is not in either of their own handwritting? Even more reason to deal with on their own.

 

[andreww]

Even more strange, why would the Ramseys assume they would be suspects in the ransom kidnapping of their own daughter. Especially since they have a piece of evidence in their hands that is not in either of their own handwritting? Even more reason to deal with on their own.

Patsy wrote the note. I'd bet the farm on that.

 

[tml]

Patsy wrote the note. I'd bet the farm on that.

View attachment 63699

I used to think PR, all the way. I am more and more turning away from this and focusing on JR. This blog post http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/07/ruled-out.html started my thoughts in this direction, because to be honest I never investigated the "ruled out" aspect before. Ruled out? Taking a look at the copy of a check signed by JR on the blog, seems to me that JR's handwriting is certainly too close to that of the ransom note to be totally ruled out.

 

[midwest mama]

I used to think PR, all the way. I am more and more turning away from this and focusing on JR. This blog post http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/07/ruled-out.html started my thoughts in this direction, because to be honest I never investigated the "ruled out" aspect before. Ruled out? Taking a look at the copy of a check signed by JR on the blog, seems to me that JR's handwriting is certainly too close to that of the ransom note to be totally ruled out.

ITA. Funny that there was so little made public with samples of JR'S. Also find it strange his mispellings on his exemplars are the same type as the ransom note: inappropriate use of double consonants.

The note, IMO clearly end with the intent to have JR in control of delivery of the money and pickup of JB. Completely solid reason to be able to keep PR removed from joining in the transactions, and allowing JR solo movement of JB'S body from the home once PR and BR were "safe" somewhere else.

 

[andreww]

ITA. Funny that there was so little made public with samples of JR'S. Also find it strange his mispellings on his exemplars are the same type as the ransom note: inappropriate use of double consonants.

The note, IMO clearly end with the intent to have JR in control of delivery of the money and pickup of JB. Completely solid reason to be able to keep PR removed from joining in the transactions, and allowing JR solo movement of JB'S body from the home once PR and BR were "safe" somewhere else.

Interesting theory, but if JR acted alone and intended on going through with a fake ransom delivery, why would they call LE? John could have easily heeded the notes warnings and made the delivery, at the same time removing and dumping the body.

However, that could have been plan A but Patsy freaked and called 911 without Johns knowledge. Then Plan B went in to effect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tml]

Interesting theory, but if JR acted alone and intended on going through with a fake ransom delivery, why would they call LE? John could have easily heeded the notes warnings and made the delivery, at the same time removing and dumping the body.

However, that could have been plan A but Patsy freaked and called 911 without Johns knowledge. Then Plan B went in to effect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think this is exactly what happened. I don't think JR expected PR to call 911. Once she was calling, it was too late. Plan B, like you said.