Happenings of December 26

[UKGuy]

In reference to the part of your bost in bold - I guess I'm missing something. Why, if PR/JR are both in on the staging, would the R's version of events be determined by the staging? They could stage anything they wanted. They could have made up any scenario and staged consistent with the story they planned to tell. Or are you assuming a JR/BR joint venture here?

Chrishope,
mmm, I think its a subtle hint that if the R's relate the same version of events, but that version of events is inconsistent with the forensic evidence, then why should that be?

The R's version of events must be corroborated by JonBenet's appearance, i.e. dressed as per arriving back from the White's.

I am suggesting because one R had redressed JonBenet in those longjohns, this, for whatever reason, forced Patsy to relate how she changed JonBenet into the longjohns, but as you propose they could stage anything they wanted., but they never and they never removed the longjohns so they did not need a tale about Patsy changing JonBenet.

I am not certain whether its BR/JR joint venture, but it looks very much like a BR/JR/PR joint venture, since Patsy parrots the same version of events as JR.

I guess your theory requires Patsy to genuinely have changed JonBenet into those longjohns, so where does the dust and lint come from?

Speculating: BR has an altercation with JonBenet, she is cleaned up and partially redressed, either he or JR whack her on the head, this fails. Enter Patsy, ligature is applied, and a kidnapping scenario is devised so they can report JonBenet missing.

I do not think Patsy redressed JonBenet in those longjohns on arrival back from the White's, they are part of the wine-cellar staging. JonBenet was up and walking about, had hair up using those hair-ties, and snacked pineapple. JonBenet's size-6 underwear is missing, and Patsy never noticed if she was wearing underwear on the night of the White's party, she also disowned artifacts in the breakfast bar, and did not know the size-12's were absent from the underwear drawer.

That is a laundry list of inconsistencies for which the only resolution seems to be Patsy played a role in the staging and agreed to parrot the false version of events.

Summarising: The R's could'nt simply stage any crime-scene they had to stage one that matched their selected forensic evidence. This was a constraint on their behaviour since they probably did not want to multiply the forensic evidence and tie themselves in knots with a complicated version of events

.

 

[UKGuy]

My :twocents: :

IIRC, Fleet reached down to touch JB on the ankle in the WC, realizing she was cool to the touch, and with the coroner making a statement about seeing the dust on the bottom of her feet when he arrived, it makes sense that the lj's were footless. I also read somewhere recently that they had a red and blue stripe in the band, which makes them more so the male version, since often the female version usually has no coloration in the waistband. JMO

As far as PR and BR talking at length about the murder:
BR was under psychiatric care before, during and after the murder. There was testimony from a housekeeper that he was soiling himself as late as fall 1995, and the soiled pj bottoms discovered in JB's room after the murder were said to be his. His statement to police during an interview about looking forward to lighting the fireplace in Michigan (the trip that was cancelled) immediately makes me wonder about him being a firestarter. He was given an award for overall best Camper (JB got Camper of the Day) in a photo I recently saw - again, makes me think he might have been adept with campfires, ropes, etc.

My point is that PR might not have even been able to talk realistically about JB's murder with BR if he was as disturbed psychologically as the signs point to. Or, if she was made to believe BR did it, the lawyers by then could have worked very hard to make sure none of the family ever thought anything differently by suggesting they NOT question him further - in case he would be able to convince someone he had nothing to do with it. IOW, let him take the wrap so they would be off the hook. Or, go so far as to convince BR that the intruder really did the deed.

As far as BR/JR being a joint venture - maybe there is more truth in every aspect of that scenario than we want to believe. If JR was the one who intervened in something that had happened between JB and BR, he might have decided to finish everything himself rather than expose Patsy to the mess.

But, if Patsy then awakened and came upon the scene in time to cradle JB in her arms for a moment just prior to the final pull of the cord (by JR as a measure to end it all), it might explain a great deal of the forensic evidence and also how she could have been led to write the RN.

There is no doubt that there was dysfunction beyond all appearances in that household. At this time I feel JB was a victim of familial sexual abuse. There were male family members abusing her, and her mother was aware of the abuse, but had not been capable, at that point in time, of resolving it.

The night JB was murdered, rage was responsible for most of the damage she endured. But I think it possible that while some of the rage was directed toward JB, other aspects of the crime may have occurred as a result of rage directed toward another family member!

midwest mama,

I also read somewhere recently that they had a red and blue stripe in the band, which makes them more so the male version, since often the female version usually has no coloration in the waistband.

Confirming this would lend more weight to a BDI, and if Kolar is correct about the pajama bottoms found in JonBenet's bedroom being BR's, maybe BR used an old pair of his longjohns?

As far as BR/JR being a joint venture - maybe there is more truth in every aspect of that scenario than we want to believe.

That would be my take on it. BDI with JR assisting with a cleanup and coverup. After the head injury and some time to reflect PR must have agreed to the Ransom Note and discussed further staging, i.e. ligature asphyxiation.

BR may have soiled those pajama bottoms in an emotional response to the altercation with JonBenet?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

It wouldn't be unusual for JB to have a pair of BR's outgrown longjohns. I could see that happening in most families. Although girls' versions may or may not have the blue/red stripe on the waistband, one thing the boys has that the girls' version does not have is a fly. The coroner mentioned the waistband, but never mentioned a fly opening, and I think he would have if it was there. Also, several people saw her body in the longjohns and no one ever mentioned that she was wearing boys' longjohns (as would be immediately apparent by the fly). I have to think she was not wearing BR's, but a pair of her own girls' longjohns that just happened to have a red/blue stripe in the elastic waistband.

I also think that, even with the longjohns being footless, that the lint on the bottom of her feet might have been disturbed, though not necessarily wiped away, by putting them on, unconscious or not.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
mmm, I think its a subtle hint that if the R's relate the same version of events, but that version of events is inconsistent with the forensic evidence, then why should that be?

The R's version of events must be corroborated by JonBenet's appearance, i.e. dressed as per arriving back from the White's.

What? Why does it have to be dressed as per arriving back from the White's? It would be reasonable to change clothes before bed, so she could be wearing most anything at bed time. Lots of options.

I am suggesting because one R had redressed JonBenet in those longjohns, this, for whatever reason, forced Patsy to relate how she changed JonBenet into the longjohns, but as you propose they could stage anything they wanted., but they never and they never removed the longjohns so they did not need a tale about Patsy changing JonBenet.

They needed an explanation for wearing longjohns as she (presumably) did not wear them to the party.

I am not certain whether its BR/JR joint venture, but it looks very much like a BR/JR/PR joint venture, since Patsy parrots the same version of events as JR.

That's on possibility, but then it doesn't explain why they'd choose longjohns. If it's a family-wide conspiracy, PR can run upstairs and get size 6s, and a nightie. Presumably JB had more than just the Barbie nightie.

What would account for the LJs is if that's what she really wore to bed, and PR wasn't involved, but knew JB was wearing them at bed time. That's a genuine constraint on the staging party.

I guess your theory requires Patsy to genuinely have changed JonBenet into those longjohns, so where does the dust and lint come from?

Probably from the basement floor. See other posts re: putting on the LJs after the assault.

Speculating: BR has an altercation with JonBenet, she is cleaned up and partially redressed, either he or JR whack her on the head, this fails. Enter Patsy, ligature is applied, and a kidnapping scenario is devised so they can report JonBenet missing.

I do not think Patsy redressed JonBenet in those longjohns on arrival back from the White's, they are part of the wine-cellar staging.

Why would they choose that (the LJs) when there were certainly other options?

JonBenet was up and walking about, had hair up using those hair-ties, and snacked pineapple. JonBenet's size-6 underwear is missing, and Patsy never noticed if she was wearing underwear on the night of the White's party, she also disowned artifacts in the breakfast bar, and did not know the size-12's were absent from the underwear drawer.

That is a laundry list of inconsistencies for which the only resolution seems to be Patsy played a role in the staging and agreed to parrot the false version of events.

Summarising: The R's could'nt simply stage any crime-scene they had to stage one that matched their selected forensic evidence. This was a constraint on their behaviour since they probably did not want to multiply the forensic evidence and tie themselves in knots with a complicated version of events

.[/quote]


The Rs could stage a kidnapping, or a sex murder, or maybe a few other scenarios if they had the imagination. The chose kidnapping, as evidenced by the RN. Within the context of a staged kidnapping JB could be dressed in any number of garments. There was hardly any constraint at all, unless one parent was innocent and ignorant; then the stager is extermely constrained. They tell the story "We put her to bed wearing X, then we woke up and found a RN, etc." For that story, X can be anything plausible, such as one of her other nighties. IMO, it does not make sense that Wed. panties, way too big, and LJs were selected if PR is involved. Even if JR is the one doing the redressing while PR is busy on other matters, why select those items?

 

[Chrishope]

midwest mama,

Confirming this would lend more weight to a BDI, and if Kolar is correct about the pajama bottoms found in JonBenet's bedroom being BR's, maybe BR used an old pair of his longjohns?


That would be my take on it. BDI with JR assisting with a cleanup and coverup. After the head injury and some time to reflect PR must have agreed to the Ransom Note and discussed further staging, i.e. ligature asphyxiation.

BR may have soiled those pajama bottoms in an emotional response to the altercation with JonBenet?

.

And all the other times he soiled himself ?

 

[Chrishope]

My :twocents: :

IIRC, Fleet reached down to touch JB on the ankle in the WC, realizing she was cool to the touch, and with the coroner making a statement about seeing the dust on the bottom of her feet when he arrived, it makes sense that the lj's were footless. I also read somewhere recently that they had a red and blue stripe in the band, which makes them more so the male version, since often the female version usually has no coloration in the waistband. JMO

As far as PR and BR talking at length about the murder:
BR was under psychiatric care before, during and after the murder. There was testimony from a housekeeper that he was soiling himself as late as fall 1995, and the soiled pj bottoms discovered in JB's room after the murder were said to be his. His statement to police during an interview about looking forward to lighting the fireplace in Michigan (the trip that was cancelled) immediately makes me wonder about him being a firestarter. He was given an award for overall best Camper (JB got Camper of the Day) in a photo I recently saw - again, makes me think he might have been adept with campfires, ropes, etc.

My point is that PR might not have even been able to talk realistically about JB's murder with BR if he was as disturbed psychologically as the signs point to. Or, if she was made to believe BR did it, the lawyers by then could have worked very hard to make sure none of the family ever thought anything differently by suggesting they NOT question him further - in case he would be able to convince someone he had nothing to do with it. IOW, let him take the wrap so they would be off the hook. Or, go so far as to convince BR that the intruder really did the deed.

As far as BR/JR being a joint venture - maybe there is more truth in every aspect of that scenario than we want to believe. If JR was the one who intervened in something that had happened between JB and BR, he might have decided to finish everything himself rather than expose Patsy to the mess.

But, if Patsy then awakened and came upon the scene in time to cradle JB in her arms for a moment just prior to the final pull of the cord (by JR as a measure to end it all), it might explain a great deal of the forensic evidence and also how she could have been led to write the RN.

There is no doubt that there was dysfunction beyond all appearances in that household. At this time I feel JB was a victim of familial sexual abuse. There were male family members abusing her, and her mother was aware of the abuse, but had not been capable, at that point in time, of resolving it.

The night JB was murdered, rage was responsible for most of the damage she endured. But I think it possible that while some of the rage was directed toward JB, other aspects of the crime may have occurred as a result of rage directed toward another family member!

Hard for me to believe that JR sees the tragic results of an altercation and decides to garrotte his daughter in response. The only way that makes sense, to me, is if JR is the chronic abuser. But even so, if BR did the acute abuse, JR could just deny knowledge of the acute abuse. Suspicion would center on BR, but he's beyond prosecution. Then of course we have all the other problems with BDI.

 

[midwest mama]

It wouldn't be unusual for JB to have a pair of BR's outgrown longjohns. I could see that happening in most families. Although girls' versions may or may not have the blue/red stripe on the waistband, one thing the boys has that the girls' version does not have is a fly. The coroner mentioned the waistband, but never mentioned a fly opening, and I think he would have if it was there. Also, several people saw her body in the longjohns and no one ever mentioned that she was wearing boys' longjohns (as would be immediately apparent by the fly). I have to think she was not wearing BR's, but a pair of her own girls' longjohns that just happened to have a red/blue stripe in the elastic waistband.

I also think that, even with the longjohns being footless, that the lint on the bottom of her feet might have been disturbed, though not necessarily wiped away, by putting them on, unconscious or not.

I think it would be unusual for JB to wear hand-me-downs from BR. The Ramseys were not "most families" when it came to wardrobes. They did not cut corners on their wardrobe - JR even commented about Patsy's spending habits with his credit cards. I can't see her saving and passing on anything from Burke to JB. There was too much difference in their sizes, and Patsy just strikes me as having been the "donating" type when it came to outgrown children's clothing.

So, if we think that JB was wearing girls' lj's when found, that would be in keeping with either Patsy dressing her in them at bedtime, or whoever cleaned her up choosing them from JB's things. If they were girls, I think it odd they would have the red and blue stripe which was usually seen in a major boys' underwear brand. I also think it odd that JB had plain thermal underwear when little girls usually had so many colored or patterned choices. Not impossible, but not the norm, IMO.

Whether or not the lj's were girls or boys, the information might be something being redacted on purpose, to be confirmed by the killer if one is ever charged.

I have to agree that once JB's feet collected enough lint for the coroner to think it notable, nothing went on/off over them, and she did not get into her bed. She was up and about somewhere in the house where it was not very well cleaned. The housekeeper would have had the floors cleaned well enough in the main/entertaining areas because of the holiday gatherings. Even the bedroom levels should have been vacuumed enough to keep unusual amounts of lint from gathering on the bottoms of her feet. IMO, she was upright, somehow, in the basement area long enough to dirty the bottoms of her feet. :moo:

 

[midwest mama]

Hard for me to believe that JR sees the tragic results of an altercation and decides to garrotte his daughter in response. The only way that makes sense, to me, is if JR is the chronic abuser. But even so, if BR did the acute abuse, JR could just deny knowledge of the acute abuse. Suspicion would center on BR, but he's beyond prosecution. Then of course we have all the other problems with BDI.

Agreed. The only conceivable BDI theory to me involves the kids getting into a heck of a brawl in JB's bedroom. I can see them having had a pineapple snack together in the kitchen after returning home from the White's with Patsy going off to get a few things ready for the trip and then to bed, thinking JR would keep an eye on them. But I think he would have had an "ear" to what they were doing, occupying himself with something else for a few minutes until he shagged them upstairs and left them on their own to get ready for bed. Then he would have continued upstairs.

The condition of JB's room in the police photos show it to be messy enough to suspect something went awry in that room. Enough could have happened between JB and Burke to cause him to chase her and poke her with the train track, and possibly even bring about a bloody nose. Followed by something that caused the head blow?

If JR heard enough to bring him to the rescue, but too late, he would have angrily dealt with Burke, then maybe taken JB downstairs to the kitchen area or den area to lay her down and see if he could bring her around. But he would have realized it was hopeless, and his fear of a coroner finding out about chronic abuse lead him to go through all the rest of it - making it look like a pedo kidnapping murder, thinking he could cover anything with that scenario that might eventually expose molestation. In this case, it was as much as a confession that he was the one guilty of molesting JB, since he would not have wanted anyone to know, least of all Patsy.

If Patsy did not wake up, he was responsible for everything that night, deciding on the garrote because he knew it would be final and quick. But he didn't know JB would rally enough when he prodded her with the paintbrush to scream, so with the garrote in place for the final act, he simply and quickly pulled the cord tight enough to silence her. He would have to stay calm enough to get the whole plan put together and work it out so Patsy found the RN and he could later get the body out of the house.

If Patsy did wake up, then he could have told her he heard the brawl and when he got to the kids, realized Burke had done everything. He was trying to spare Patsy. He had dealt with Burke, but realized JB couldn't be helped, so nothing left to do but end it quickly. He knew how - the garrote would take care of it. He could coerce Patsy into writing the RN while he finished everything. But once he went upstairs to clean up, in her hysterical state she knew she could not bear to have JB's body dumped, and without realizing the downfall of a RN and a dead body in the house, she called 911 so the plan would be altered from being able to get the body out of the house.

IF JR came downstairs as Patsy was already into the call, there was nothing to do but try to get through the rest of the plan. He was well versed on criminal techniques from all he had read in his favorite books, and combined with all else that went wrong that day, everything worked to keep them all "exonerated".

 

[anne11]

The dress Jb was buried in was pre-owned so I think there is a good possibility that Patsy would use hand me downs on her especially with the bed wetting issues JMO

 

[UKGuy]

And all the other times he soiled himself ?

Chrishope,
Each one might have a different causal factor, who can say? Already soiling yourself surely reflects some emotional pathology, so predisposing you to possibly react in this manner when engaged in an violent homicide.

.

 

[UKGuy]

What? Why does it have to be dressed as per arriving back from the White's? It would be reasonable to change clothes before bed, so she could be wearing most anything at bed time. Lots of options.



They needed an explanation for wearing longjohns as she (presumably) did not wear them to the party.



That's on possibility, but then it doesn't explain why they'd choose longjohns. If it's a family-wide conspiracy, PR can run upstairs and get size 6s, and a nightie. Presumably JB had more than just the Barbie nightie.

What would account for the LJs is if that's what she really wore to bed, and PR wasn't involved, but knew JB was wearing them at bed time. That's a genuine constraint on the staging party.

Probably from the basement floor. See other posts re: putting on the LJs after the assault.



Why would they choose that (the LJs) when there were certainly other options?

JonBenet was up and walking about, had hair up using those hair-ties, and snacked pineapple. JonBenet's size-6 underwear is missing, and Patsy never noticed if she was wearing underwear on the night of the White's party, she also disowned artifacts in the breakfast bar, and did not know the size-12's were absent from the underwear drawer.

That is a laundry list of inconsistencies for which the only resolution seems to be Patsy played a role in the staging and agreed to parrot the false version of events.

Summarising: The R's could'nt simply stage any crime-scene they had to stage one that matched their selected forensic evidence. This was a constraint on their behaviour since they probably did not want to multiply the forensic evidence and tie themselves in knots with a complicated version of events

.

The Rs could stage a kidnapping, or a sex murder, or maybe a few other scenarios if they had the imagination. The chose kidnapping, as evidenced by the RN. Within the context of a staged kidnapping JB could be dressed in any number of garments. There was hardly any constraint at all, unless one parent was innocent and ignorant; then the stager is extermely constrained. They tell the story "We put her to bed wearing X, then we woke up and found a RN, etc." For that story, X can be anything plausible, such as one of her other nighties. IMO, it does not make sense that Wed. panties, way too big, and LJs were selected if PR is involved. Even if JR is the one doing the redressing while PR is busy on other matters, why select those items?[/QUOTE]

Chrishope,

What? Why does it have to be dressed as per arriving back from the White's? It would be reasonable to change clothes before bed, so she could be wearing most anything at bed time. Lots of options.

They do not have lots of options because their version of events is constrained by the forensic evidence in the wine-cellar, it has to include any exceptions, i.e. longjohns, but not the size-12's, what happened there? If they have lots of options why not tell BPD, we also changed JonBenet's underwear too? Is it not obvious that the version of events is being retrofitted to match the forensic evidence?

They needed an explanation for wearing longjohns as she (presumably) did not wear them to the party.

Absolutely!

That's on possibility, but then it doesn't explain why they'd choose longjohns. If it's a family-wide conspiracy, PR can run upstairs and get size 6s, and a nightie. Presumably JB had more than just the Barbie nightie.

So either Patsy is ignorant about the size-12's, her statement to BPD suggests this, or she fabricated the version of events relating to the size-12's?

The former results in the possibility that Patsy was informed about an already staged JonBenet, and the latter that she is implicated in the staging.

What would account for the LJs is if that's what she really wore to bed, and PR wasn't involved, but knew JB was wearing them at bed time. That's a genuine constraint on the staging party.

Only if you intend to deceive Patsy 100%.

Why would they choose that (the LJs) when there were certainly other options?

Other options may have been exercised, e.g. red turtleneck, pink barbie nightgown, pajama bottoms? The pink barbie nightgown might be part of a prior staging. The longjohns would be selected so to hide the size-12's.

The Rs could stage a kidnapping, or a sex murder, or maybe a few other scenarios if they had the imagination. The chose kidnapping, as evidenced by the RN.

So what do you think came first the redressed JonBenet or the Ransom Note?

Within the context of a staged kidnapping JB could be dressed in any number of garments. There was hardly any constraint at all, unless one parent was innocent and ignorant; then the stager is extermely constrained. They tell the story "We put her to bed wearing X, then we woke up and found a RN, etc." For that story, X can be anything plausible, such as one of her other nighties. IMO, it does not make sense that Wed. panties, way too big, and LJs were selected if PR is involved. Even if JR is the one doing the redressing while PR is busy on other matters, why select those items?

Not at all, or only if their version of events is changed to explain the redressing away, again you have the forensic evidence determining the version of events.

.

 

[UKGuy]

I think it would be unusual for JB to wear hand-me-downs from BR. The Ramseys were not "most families" when it came to wardrobes. They did not cut corners on their wardrobe - JR even commented about Patsy's spending habits with his credit cards. I can't see her saving and passing on anything from Burke to JB. There was too much difference in their sizes, and Patsy just strikes me as having been the "donating" type when it came to outgrown children's clothing.

So, if we think that JB was wearing girls' lj's when found, that would be in keeping with either Patsy dressing her in them at bedtime, or whoever cleaned her up choosing them from JB's things. If they were girls, I think it odd they would have the red and blue stripe which was usually seen in a major boys' underwear brand. I also think it odd that JB had plain thermal underwear when little girls usually had so many colored or patterned choices. Not impossible, but not the norm, IMO.

Whether or not the lj's were girls or boys, the information might be something being redacted on purpose, to be confirmed by the killer if one is ever charged.

I have to agree that once JB's feet collected enough lint for the coroner to think it notable, nothing went on/off over them, and she did not get into her bed. She was up and about somewhere in the house where it was not very well cleaned. The housekeeper would have had the floors cleaned well enough in the main/entertaining areas because of the holiday gatherings. Even the bedroom levels should have been vacuumed enough to keep unusual amounts of lint from gathering on the bottoms of her feet. IMO, she was upright, somehow, in the basement area long enough to dirty the bottoms of her feet. :moo:

midwest mama,
Or in an area where lint and dust predominated on the floor?

Kolar thinks she was in the basement but offers no reason for this, maybe he knows something we do not?

Roughly, we have JonBenet linked to the Breakfast Bar, Her Bedroom, and the basement.

Since the R's seem to consider the Breakfast Bar of no consequence, maybe JonBenet's movement that night went something like Bedroom, Breakfast Bar, Basement?

Patsy never stated she put JonBenet to bed with a Barbie Doll, so why was she found with one in the wine-cellar?

Were BR and JonBenet the ones that opened the partially opened gifts, was this the motivation behind a visit to the basement?

.

 

[CorallaroC]

midwest mama,
Or in an area where lint and dust predominated on the floor?

Kolar thinks she was in the basement but offers no reason for this, maybe he knows something we do not?

Roughly, we have JonBenet linked to the Breakfast Bar, Her Bedroom, and the basement.

Since the R's seem to consider the Breakfast Bar of no consequence, maybe JonBenet's movement that night went something like Bedroom, Breakfast Bar, Basement?

Patsy never stated she put JonBenet to bed with a Barbie Doll, so why was she found with one in the wine-cellar?

Were BR and JonBenet the ones that opened the partially opened gifts, was this the motivation behind a visit to the basement?

.

re:dust&lint on JBR's feet - could it have been dryer lint?

In one of the interviews of PR, I sorta remember a Q: regarding the high capacity washer & dryer in the basement and PR's A: was something about how she and the housekeeper used those machines to launder rugs, bed spreads, etc.

Have we seen pics of the washer&dryer in the basement?
Anyone know the exact location? WRT the wine cellar?

just curious :dunno:

 

[Chrishope]

The Rs could stage a kidnapping, or a sex murder, or maybe a few other scenarios if they had the imagination. The chose kidnapping, as evidenced by the RN. Within the context of a staged kidnapping JB could be dressed in any number of garments. There was hardly any constraint at all, unless one parent was innocent and ignorant; then the stager is extermely constrained. They tell the story "We put her to bed wearing X, then we woke up and found a RN, etc." For that story, X can be anything plausible, such as one of her other nighties. IMO, it does not make sense that Wed. panties, way too big, and LJs were selected if PR is involved. Even if JR is the one doing the redressing while PR is busy on other matters, why select those items?

Chrishope,

They do not have lots of options because their version of events is constrained by the forensic evidence in the wine-cellar, it has to include any exceptions, i.e. longjohns, but not the size-12's, what happened there? [/quote]

Why not size 6s? If PR is in on it, what prevents size 6s? How does the forensic evidence "constrain" them from putting size 6 on her?

If they have lots of options why not tell BPD, we also changed JonBenet's underwear too?

Exactly, and if it's a family wide conspiracy, there is absolutely no constraint on doing just that. They could say JB needed to change before bed.

Is it not obvious that the version of events is being retrofitted to match the forensic evidence?

No. It's obvious that the Rs - in your scenario, where PR is co-conspirator- are largely in charge of the forensic evidence. They don't need the story to conform to the longjohns, or the missing panties, because they don't need the longjohns, or the size 12s IOWs, they are in control of both what she wears, and the overall story they are going to tell the police.

What is obvious is that not all the Ramsey's participated, otherwise there'd be no Wed size 12 panties. There also would be no need for the LJs. It's obvious that one parent was constrained, precisely because the other was innocent. The innocent parent knew what JB had on at bed time.

Absolutely!


So either Patsy is ignorant about the size-12's, her statement to BPD suggests this, or she fabricated the version of events relating to the size-12's?

She'd ignorant of the 12s, a further indication that she didn't participate. If she were co-conspirator, there's certainly no reason she'd put 12s on JB herself, and no reason for JR to do so. The 12s are taken from the package in the basement because the stager can't go upstairs for size 6s.

The former results in the possibility that Patsy was informed about an already staged JonBenet, and the latter that she is implicated in the staging.

Only if you intend to deceive Patsy 100%.


Other options may have been exercised, e.g. red turtleneck, pink barbie nightgown, pajama bottoms? The pink barbie nightgown might be part of a prior staging. The longjohns would be selected so to hide the size-12's.

Hide them from whom? No reason to have used 12s to begin with if PR is involved. Even if JR is redressing, if PR is aware of the redressing (even if it's just in general, and not the specific clothing items) there is no reason JR can't retrieve proper fitting panties from JB's room.

So what do you think came first the redressed JonBenet or the Ransom Note?


I suspect the RN came after the redressing, but not because of what she's wearing. Dealing with the dead body would be the natural thing to do, then a plan needs to be formulated to stay out of prison - or keep from going to the chair.

Quote: [by me]
Within the context of a staged kidnapping JB could be dressed in any number of garments. There was hardly any constraint at all, unless one parent was innocent and ignorant; then the stager is extermely constrained. They tell the story "We put her to bed wearing X, then we woke up and found a RN, etc." For that story, X can be anything plausible, such as one of her other nighties. IMO, it does not make sense that Wed. panties, way too big, and LJs were selected if PR is involved. Even if JR is the one doing the redressing while PR is busy on other matters, why select those items?

Not at all, or only if their version of events is changed to explain the redressing away, again you have the forensic evidence determining the version of events.

.

Again, a 3 way conspiracy puts the Rs in charge of both the redressing and the version of events. As far as how she is clothed, there are no constraints on a 3 party conspiracy.

 

[Nom de plume]

Agreed. The only conceivable BDI theory to me involves the kids getting into a heck of a brawl in JB's bedroom. I can see them having had a pineapple snack together in the kitchen after returning home from the White's with Patsy going off to get a few things ready for the trip and then to bed, thinking JR would keep an eye on them. But I think he would have had an "ear" to what they were doing, occupying himself with something else for a few minutes until he shagged them upstairs and left them on their own to get ready for bed. Then he would have continued upstairs.

The condition of JB's room in the police photos show it to be messy enough to suspect something went awry in that room. Enough could have happened between JB and Burke to cause him to chase her and poke her with the train track, and possibly even bring about a bloody nose. Followed by something that caused the head blow?
If JR heard enough to bring him to the rescue, but too late, he would have angrily dealt with Burke, then maybe taken JB downstairs to the kitchen area or den area to lay her down and see if he could bring her around. But he would have realized it was hopeless, and his fear of a coroner finding out about chronic abuse lead him to go through all the rest of it - making it look like a pedo kidnapping murder, thinking he could cover anything with that scenario that might eventually expose molestation. In this case, it was as much as a confession that he was the one guilty of molesting JB, since he would not have wanted anyone to know, least of all Patsy.

If Patsy did not wake up, he was responsible for everything that night, deciding on the garrote because he knew it would be final and quick. But he didn't know JB would rally enough when he prodded her with the paintbrush to scream, so with the garrote in place for the final act, he simply and quickly pulled the cord tight enough to silence her. He would have to stay calm enough to get the whole plan put together and work it out so Patsy found the RN and he could later get the body out of the house.

If Patsy did wake up, then he could have told her he heard the brawl and when he got to the kids, realized Burke had done everything. He was trying to spare Patsy. He had dealt with Burke, but realized JB couldn't be helped, so nothing left to do but end it quickly. He knew how - the garrote would take care of it. He could coerce Patsy into writing the RN while he finished everything. But once he went upstairs to clean up, in her hysterical state she knew she could not bear to have JB's body dumped, and without realizing the downfall of a RN and a dead body in the house, she called 911 so the plan would be altered from being able to get the body out of the house.

IF JR came downstairs as Patsy was already into the call, there was nothing to do but try to get through the rest of the plan. He was well versed on criminal techniques from all he had read in his favorite books, and combined with all else that went wrong that day, everything worked to keep them all "exonerated".

BBM This version of events is certainly possible with the exception of the bolded parts. She couldn't scream after the head blow.

 

[anne11]

The washing machine and dryer in the basement, here is the link if the image doesn't work; http://www.acandyrose.com/basementlaundryRS.jpg

 

[Chrishope]

Agreed. The only conceivable BDI theory to me involves the kids getting into a heck of a brawl in JB's bedroom. I can see them having had a pineapple snack together in the kitchen after returning home from the White's with Patsy going off to get a few things ready for the trip and then to bed, thinking JR would keep an eye on them. But I think he would have had an "ear" to what they were doing, occupying himself with something else for a few minutes until he shagged them upstairs and left them on their own to get ready for bed. Then he would have continued upstairs.

The condition of JB's room in the police photos show it to be messy enough to suspect something went awry in that room. Enough could have happened between JB and Burke to cause him to chase her and poke her with the train track, and possibly even bring about a bloody nose. Followed by something that caused the head blow?

If JR heard enough to bring him to the rescue, but too late, he would have angrily dealt with Burke, then maybe taken JB downstairs to the kitchen area or den area to lay her down and see if he could bring her around.

It seems more likely he'd try to bring her around on the spot?

But he would have realized it was hopeless, and his fear of a coroner finding out about chronic abuse lead him to go through all the rest of it - making it look like a pedo kidnapping murder, thinking he could cover anything with that scenario that might eventually expose molestation. In this case, it was as much as a confession that he was the one guilty of molesting JB, since he would not have wanted anyone to know, least of all Patsy.

OK, makes sense. (To the extent BDI can make sense

If Patsy did not wake up, he was responsible for everything that night, deciding on the garrote because he knew it would be final and quick. But he didn't know JB would rally enough when he prodded her with the paintbrush to scream, so with the garrote in place for the final act, he simply and quickly pulled the cord tight enough to silence her. He would have to stay calm enough to get the whole plan put together and work it out so Patsy found the RN and he could later get the body out of the house.

OK

If Patsy did wake up, then he could have told her he heard the brawl and when he got to the kids, realized Burke had done everything.

I can go along with that.

He was trying to spare Patsy. He had dealt with Burke, but realized JB couldn't be helped, so nothing left to do but end it quickly. He knew how - the garrote would take care of it. He could coerce Patsy into writing the RN while he finished everything. But once he went upstairs to clean up, in her hysterical state she knew she could not bear to have JB's body dumped, and without realizing the downfall of a RN and a dead body in the house, she called 911 so the plan would be altered from being able to get the body out of the house.

This does not ring true to me. An innocent PR waking up to find BR had bludgeoned their daughter isn't going to go along with a garrotting, and agree to write a RN. She's going to call an ambulance.

IF JR came downstairs as Patsy was already into the call, there was nothing to do but try to get through the rest of the plan. He was well versed on criminal techniques from all he had read in his favorite books, and combined with all else that went wrong that day, everything worked to keep them all "exonerated".

Once the call is placed it can't be taken back, so yes, there is nothing for him to do once the call is made. The prosecutors office and police chief, along with LS, worked hard to keep them from being indicted.

 

[midwest mama]

The dress Jb was buried in was pre-owned so I think there is a good possibility that Patsy would use hand me downs on her especially with the bed wetting issues JMO

JB's burial dress was chosen from among some that were pageant dresses she had purchased - they were specialty dresses which were not inexpensive.

I agree she could have used some underwear passed from Burke to JB, especially since lj's don't usually get much wear.

The only reason it would matter to know is to be able to speculate as to JB wearing them before the crime, because she got into them when returning home from the Whites. In that case, they most likely were hers from her own wardrobe. Still doesn't prove they were girls', but I would think the likelihood high.

If they were boys' lj's, it becomes more suspicious, at least to me, that BR had something to do with redressing JB, even if it was in response to one of the parents saying "bring me some bottoms for her".
It would be easy for him to choose lj's from his own wardrobe because he knew where they were. It wouldn't be a surprise if he had a smaller pair or two in his drawer from the previous winter.

 

[midwest mama]

Nom - Right on about the scream. The coroner said she would have died from the head blow alone, so in the JR trying to hide the chronic molestation scenario, there either was NO SCREAM, or, he could have "rescued" JB from the brawl, but in getting her settled back down, found it necessary to pamper her a while - which might have included actions which ended up with him starting something with JB in her bed, leading to him taking her to the basement?

He could have promised her a special gift (maybe the new Barbie Doll which was possibly going to Charlevoix for the next R Christmas?) in order to help calm and settle her?

Chrishope - The only way I can see Patsy involved in helping with the note and falling victim to JR's persuasion is knowing she was using medications, and that she thought Burke would be taken from them, possibly end up in a hospital, given his psychiatric records. Her insistence and reactions a couple of times during later interviews the minute Burke was mentioned, Mother Bear Extreme, shows that she was deluded about Burke's anger capability and prepared to protect him at any cost.

I will say, I really do not see Burke involved past one of the parents - JR, IMO, breaking up a fight, and getting angrily managed into bed for the night. (JR was still angry with him the next morning if we consider the enhanced call). I can believe Burke would have caused the track abrasions and maybe even some of the other scrapes on JB, since it is on record about him harming her previously.

So, my actual reaction in this scenario is that JR may have became JB's loving daddy - in more ways than one, and it went from bad to worse. I also am not convinced PR was involved with anything that night, but because of the bias of her writing the note, I have to consider that as the only loophole. She would have been out of her mind (I think she was a bit anyway) and wouldn't have known up from down.

But, after learning what I have about JR, I would believe him capable of the complete crime - start to finish, no BDI, no Patsy, just him wanting to love his daughter his way, but having to silence her because she was not able to comply without expressing pain, and in fact, maybe had begun to let him know previously in other ways, that she might tell someone about them. There is no doubt in my mind that he would have been prepared to protect himself, though I am not sure he realized it might have been that night.

 

[Darlene733510]

I do think that PR was involved, especially with the size 12 panties. I believe she was the only one who knew they were wrapped and in the wc to be sent to her niece. She was the one who lied and said they were in JB's drawer, and BPD found no size 12's there. Does anybody think that in conversation she would say to JR or BR where they were?

Having raised 4 boys in MI where the winters are very cold, I know that boys underwear have a place in front that is open so they can pee without taking their pants down. We will probably never know about that front access, but I don't know if it matters that much or not. To make things more complicated, suppose the 2 kids were in BR's room fooling around and BR got the lj's from his drawer? That is possible, and I really believe it started with BR, and both parents became involved. JR' anger, even the next morning was evident that he was probably fed up with the way BR treated his sister to the point of causing her death, but he knew he had to protect him, and most of all to protect the upstanding image of the perfect family