Happenings of December 26

[Chelly]

Chelly,
I think your general outline is correct. The details can be interpreted in many ways.

That the pineapple bowl was on the table downstairs, with a spoon in it, probably means JonBenet ate there.

Otherwise the breakfast bar would have been cleaned up, as the R's denied all knowledge of JonBenet snacking pineapple, since the pineapple snack shows Jonbenet was up and walking about contrary to the R's version.

Its more likely JonBenet made it to her bedroom or another and shortly afterwards she was sexually assaulted.

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UKGuy, You are more versed on the details of this case than I. But may I offer this:

BR and PR's fingerprints on the bowl.

Possibly PR previously prepared the bowl of sliced pineapple and refrigerated it.

Could BR alone have removed the bowl from the refrigerator and placed it on the counter? I believe bowl was found on the higher portion of the island counter where JB could not have reached.

I am quite sure I read that the spoon was oversized, much like a serving spoon and not one that JB would eat from.

Could BR have spooned some pineapple into his hand and brought it up to JB in her bed?

Can we really say that the bowl of pineapple snack indicates JB was up and walking around?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, would you explain this further as to your BDI theory. I’m not sure I understand, do you believe there could have been 3 separate events perpetrated by 3 separate R’s - ie, a sexual assault, a head bash and an asphysiation? So, if it is a BDI, are you assuming the sexual assault came first and thereby he was responsible for the initiation of all the rest of what happened? Certainly, a violent encounter between JB and BR fits the Kolar theory. But I’ve never considered 2 people responsible for the sexual assault and the head strike before. Certainly adds to some other scenarios.

I also grasp Chrishope’s version of the “Jekyll and Hyde” transformation , though. I can’t see PR and JR suddenly having, as loving parents, an inspiration (like in the old movies with Mickey Rooney: “Hey kids let’s put on a show”) hey, mom, dad, let’s do a cover-up. After cleaning her up, the cover-up itself was disturbed and ugly. One can possibly consider that at least one of the adult R’s was in a demented state from having bashed JB’s head and able to continue on with a cover-up involving a strangulation and paint brush jab. All JMHO.

There is one of two reasons PR and JR lie about BR being asleep, they really don’t want him questioned because they aren’t sure if he heard something. Or, if one is of the BDI mindset, they weren’t sure he wouldn’t spill something.

questfortrue,

But I’ve never considered 2 people responsible for the sexual assault and the head strike before. Certainly adds to some other scenarios.

One of the luxuries of being here from the start is you know what to focus on. Also all the other theories have been debated to death, so when people suggest your conclusions are plain wrong, you know they have a game plan, since the case is RDI, the only question is which R?

I also grasp Chrishope’s version of the “Jekyll and Hyde” transformation , though.

OK, but try to see through the staging, since this is its impact. As I stated one R did patently have some kind of a “Jekyll and Hyde” transformation? real or imagined.

UKGuy, would you explain this further as to your BDI theory.

I have posted ad nauseum on this topic. I will in due course post my BDI theory to the members thread.

To assuage your curiosity, yes it does assume separate events!



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[Chelly]

Chelly - you are a welcome poster! If you don't mind, I'd like to provide some info about the size 12's, to save you having to backtrack.

There were NO OTHER size 12's found and taken into evidence by police. Sometime after the R's had been relocated to Georgia, they returned a package of the underwear, without the Wednesday pair, to police through their attorney - saying they were found in some of their things that had been shipped from the house after they vacated it completely.

Patsy was questioned about the size 12's and stated she purchased a package for her niece, during a trip she made to Bloomingdale's with JB while in NY prior to Christmas. Upon returning, Patsy was said to have conceded to JB's begging to let her keep the package of undies, saying she would grow into them. Patsy supposedly relented, and they were put into JB's underwear drawer in her bathroom.

There was also mention made of the gift for Jenny Davis (the niece) not having been shipped off in time, and PR was intending to do it when she returned from the Disney trip, along with some other items she wanted to send to Georgia as holiday items. Patsy claimed to have used a "wrapping station" in the basement, so speculation is that the underwear might actually have been laying there - maybe even wrapped, but not included with the other items in a shipping carton for later.

It does seem almost unbelievable that JB would "beg" to keep a package of underwear that were several sizes too large for her, when obviously they could have been purchased much closer to the time she would have really needed them. It has also been thought that perhaps JB wanted them, or Patsy purchased them to be used over a pull-up, as a 'camouflage' for times when wearing one was necessary. Possible - and that Patsy would not have wanted to disclose that vane action.

However, fact remains, a package that was supposedly the one that supplied the WED size 12's found on JB, was later sent to police, and since the R's were supplied with evidence lists, if any size 12's had been on it, they would have known, and NOT needed to send any others.

What is a puzzlement, as Chrishope has so well established, and also others along the way, is WHY would there be any need at all for ANY underwear to be placed on JB under her lj's if both the adult R's were colluding to cover for either BR or themselves if they had cleaned her up after a sexual attack? Why not just let her be found with the vaginal wounds (a fresh one in an attempt to mask the chronic?), since it might point even the more to an attack by an outside molester who probably would have kept a missing pair of underwear as a 'souvenir'.

IMO, the only reason for JB to be found dressed wearing a pair of undies with the lj's is because someone wanted someone to believe she was NOT sexually harmed at initial glance - that the neck ligature was the reason she was dead. This would have fulfilled the ransom note criteria of JB being killed for any number of reasons, and no reason for the 'kidnapper' to have been thought of as a sexual deviant.

As rational thinkers, it would be a given, of course, that everything that happened to JB that night would have been discovered forensically once the body was located in the house. However, if the body had been successfully removed from the house, while it makes most sense to NEVER have it found again, at least while it was intact, there would have been a chance it would be located. If it was, would it be a stretch to think that the killer wanted JB to look as if she had been strangled - in a 'beheading' sort of way - and with proper layers of clothing intact, no sexual attack?

In order for us to consider this, we must remember what several LE people commented: This was not done by professionals, there were amateur mistakes made. It was a night of horror in that household, and in that type of insanity, IMO, there might have been some very bad choices and mistakes made in assuming that the presentation of JB's body would fool someone if it was found before there was time for decomposition to take it's toll.

MidwestMama, TY for the background on the undies. It helps refresh my memory. I think it is possible that package of 12's was in JB's drawer I'm going to consider JR alone doing the redressing while PR begins composing the RN.

 

[Chrishope]

UKGuy, would you explain this further as to your BDI theory. I’m not sure I understand, do you believe there could have been 3 separate events perpetrated by 3 separate R’s - ie, a sexual assault, a head bash and an asphysiation? So, if it is a BDI, are you assuming the sexual assault came first and thereby he was responsible for the initiation of all the rest of what happened? Certainly, a violent encounter between JB and BR fits the Kolar theory. But I’ve never considered 2 people responsible for the sexual assault and the head strike before. Certainly adds to some other scenarios.

I also grasp Chrishope’s version of the “Jekyll and Hyde” transformation , though. I can’t see PR and JR suddenly having, as loving parents, an inspiration (like in the old movies with Mickey Rooney: “Hey kids let’s put on a show”) hey, mom, dad, let’s do a cover-up. After cleaning her up, the cover-up itself was disturbed and ugly. One can possibly consider that at least one of the adult R’s was in a demented state from having bashed JB’s head and able to continue on with a cover-up involving a strangulation and paint brush jab. All JMHO.

There is one of two reasons PR and JR lie about BR being asleep, they really don’t want him questioned because they aren’t sure if he heard something. Or, if one is of the BDI mindset, they weren’t sure he wouldn’t spill something.

Yes, I was going to get to this point a bit later. Burke is sent off to the Whites at 7am, so apparently they either had great confidence that BR would keep his mouth shut, or they didn't have anything to worry about in that regard.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, You are more versed on the details of this case than I. But may I offer this:

BR and PR's fingerprints on the bowl.

Possibly PR previously prepared the bowl of sliced pineapple and refrigerated it.

Could BR alone have removed the bowl from the refrigerator and placed it on the counter? I believe bowl was found on the higher portion of the island counter where JB could not have reached.

I am quite sure I read that the spoon was oversized, much like a serving spoon and not one that JB would eat from.

Could BR have spooned some pineapple into his hand and brought it up to JB in her bed?

Can we really say that the bowl of pineapple snack indicates JB was up and walking around?

Chelly,

Could BR alone have removed the bowl from the refrigerator and placed it on the counter? I believe bowl was found on the higher portion of the island counter where JB could not have reached.

Yes.

I am quite sure I read that the spoon was oversized, much like a serving spoon and not one that JB would eat from.

Or that the bowl was small?

Could BR have spooned some pineapple into his hand and brought it up to JB in her bed?

He could have, but why not put it in a bowl, so JonBenet can select whatever?

Can we really say that the bowl of pineapple snack indicates JB was up and walking around?

Absolutely, since the pineapple was found in her stomach. The R's version of events is that she was placed immediately in bed. The pineapple evidence suggests she was wide awake!


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[Chrishope]

UKGuy, You are more versed on the details of this case than I. But may I offer this:

BR and PR's fingerprints on the bowl.

Possibly PR previously prepared the bowl of sliced pineapple and refrigerated it.

Could BR alone have removed the bowl from the refrigerator and placed it on the counter? I believe bowl was found on the higher portion of the island counter where JB could not have reached.

I am quite sure I read that the spoon was oversized, much like a serving spoon and not one that JB would eat from.

Could BR have spooned some pineapple into his hand and brought it up to JB in her bed?

Can we really say that the bowl of pineapple snack indicates JB was up and walking around?

No, we can't. It's likely, but not certain. BR could have taken it to her in her bedroom, as you suggest.

She could also have gone to bed, then got up a short while later and went downstairs for pineapple.

There are too many variables/possibilities to say much that is definite about the pineapple - except that she ate some.

 

[gramcracker]

perhaps there was a long term issue which the parents deluded themselves into thinking they were managing: that the older child taught and encouraged the younger child to perform certain acts on herself, and rewarded her for the behavior. realizing that the issue had not been managed at all and that it resulted in a dire circumstance could cause anger --> rage and shame and the desire to save the remaining child while doing what had mattered most all along: keeping up appearances

if there was a long term issue the instinct to do something about it had been percolating in the parents' minds, whether or not they were denying and burying the instinct. denying that a (true) problems exists vouches for knowing that action is required. a (belated) reaction to a crisis can appear to be formulated in a short amount of time, but it can also reveal what that person has been capable of doing all along

I don't know if we're allowed to refer to other crimes here, but when Cindy Anthony came along she totally reminded me of PR: an obsession with appearances, knowing that there were serious problems and denying them, and sacrificing one family member while lying to save another. both mothers immersed themselves in denial, with tragic consequences

 

[Chelly]

Why the further staging? To obscure chronic molestation done by someone other than BR?

Why is the plan to dump the body too complex and dangerous ? And how does that danger compare to the danger of having the cops find the body, as well as the obviously fake RN? Once the body is found no investigator (except one paid off by Team Ramsey) would ever believe there were any kidnappers.

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Sexual staging: I think PR and possibly JR were aware that BR, over a period of time, was sexually abusing JB. They wanted to obscure BR's violation of JB's vagina. I think the paintbrush handle inserted in vagina was part of the staging; we know a sliver was found in vagina at autopsy.

Why is plan to dump body complex and dangerous?: I think initially a plan was in place to dump the body, but plan discarded because driving through Boulder with JB's body in his car was impossible for JR to follow through on. His and PR's vehicles were known in town. He could be spotted. How would he explain the kidnapping and RN if he was out driving around? Where was a good dumping spot? I bet JR and PR couldn't think of one. IMO, JR was terrified to leave the confines of his home with a rotting copse. He probably knew a cadaver sniffing dog would point at his car at some point during investigation. JR was king of his domain and he believed he could control whatever happened with LE within his own home. We know for sure he was making plans to get outta town as soon as the body was discovered.

 

[UKGuy]

No, we can't. It's likely, but not certain. BR could have taken it to her in her bedroom, as you suggest.

She could also have gone to bed, then got up a short while later and went downstairs for pineapple.

There are too many variables/possibilities to say much that is definite about the pineapple - except that she ate some.

Chrishope,
Again, generalising. Not at all helpful. JonBenet according to the pineapple evidence was awake period.

What might have taken place, what might have happened the following day etc, are all matters for speculation, they do not form part of the forensic evidence, i.e. pineapple residue found in JonBenet's stomach.


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[UKGuy]

perhaps there was a long term issue which the parents deluded themselves into thinking they were managing: that the older child taught and encouraged the younger child to perform certain acts on herself, and rewarded her for the behavior. realizing that the issue had not been managed at all and that it resulted in a dire circumstance could cause anger --> rage and shame and the desire to save the remaining child while doing what had mattered most all along: keeping up appearances

if there was a long term issue the instinct to do something about it had been percolating in the parents' minds, whether or not they were denying and burying the instinct. denying that a (true) problems exists vouches for knowing that action is required. a (belated) reaction to a crisis can appear to be formulated in a short amount of time, but it can also reveal what that person has been capable of doing all along

I don't know if we're allowed to refer to other crimes here, but when Cindy Anthony came along she totally reminded me of PR: an obsession with appearances, knowing that there were serious problems and denying them, and sacrificing one family member while lying to save another. both mothers immersed themselves in denial, with tragic consequences

gramcracker,
I think you make some excellent points, probably lost on some RDI proponents. Personality matters big time in homicide cases, it sometimes is submerged in the minutea of detail.

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[Chelly]

questfortrue,

One of the luxuries of being here from the start is you know what to focus on. Also all the other theories have been debated to death, so when people suggest your conclusions are plain wrong, you know they have a game plan, since the case is RDI, the only question is which R?



.

Indeed, this only question is the crux of the case. And, it may be that all theories of which R? have also been debated to death. I sometimes wonder what remains to discuss. Yet, this murder must not be set aside.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
Again, generalising. Not at all helpful. JonBenet according to the pineapple evidence was awake period.

What might have taken place, what might have happened the following day etc, are all matters for speculation, they do not form part of the forensic evidence, i.e. pineapple residue found in JonBenet's stomach.


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A girl can be awake in her bed. One can eat pineapple while awake in bed. There is no need that JB had to be sitting up, no need that she be standing, no need that she be ambulatory.

No one, not Chelly, nor myself, has suggested she was not awake. She ate pineapple, we are all agreed. She had to be awake to do that, we are all agreed. Why do those two facts preclude Chelly's suggestion that BR might have brought pineapple to JB who was in her bed at the time ?

Why does being awake at the time of eating -a fact we are all agreed on- preclude her from going to bed then getting up later and eating pineapple ?

Sigh.

 

[Chrishope]

Indeed, this only question is the crux of the case. And, it may be that all theories of which R? have also been debated to death. I sometimes wonder what remains to discuss. Yet, this murder must not be set aside.

They've all been debated, but of course different people find different things plausible/implausible. People also tend to get hung up on one thing that doesn't make sense, so they can't accept a particular theory. I'd guess that most people are fence sitters for that reason. Understandable, but the case can't be solved by sitting on the fence.
You'll drive yourself crazy trying to account for every detail.

Of course the case never will have an official resolution, and many people would reject it if there was one.

 

[UKGuy]

A girl can be awake in her bed. One can eat pineapple while awake in bed. There is no need that JB had to be sitting up, no need that she be standing, no need that she be ambulatory.

No one, not Chelly, nor myself, has suggested she was not awake. She ate pineapple, we are all agreed. She had to be awake to do that, we are all agreed. Why do those two facts preclude Chelly's suggestion that BR might have brought pineapple to JB who was in her bed at the time ?

Why does being awake at the time of eating -a fact we are all agreed on- preclude her from going to bed then getting up later and eating pineapple ?

Sigh.

Chrishope,
We do not play games here at websleuths. You appear to be under the illusion that any RDI interpretation is as valid as any other. Sadly the forensic evidence can demonstrate otherwise.

There is no need that JB had to be sitting up, no need that she be standing, no need that she be ambulatory.

You cannot be serious! A victim lies on her back to be fed with pineapple, please go away and rethink.

.

 

[midwest mama]

MidwestMama, TY for the background on the undies. It helps refresh my memory. I think it is possible that package of 12's was in JB's drawer I'm going to consider JR alone doing the redressing while PR begins composing the RN.

At this point, I also see JR as the re-dresser. And, to me, it makes the most sense that he would have been the one to choose them, no matter what location they came from, because he was the personality who demonstrated a high degree of organization and attention to details - according to a couple of published accounts over the years.

It has been suggested, though, that JB actually wore the 12's over a pull-up when going to the White's party. It might have been HER decision to do so, since Patsy was vague about the final choices for that outing. I can easily accept that if JB knew the 12's were in her drawer, and Patsy was insisting she wear a pull-up in case of an 'accident', JB might have thought it less embarrassing to cover them over for one reason or another. Under her pants, they wouldn't have been very noticeably bulky. Patsy may not have supervised her very well as she was dressing - just long enough to grab one of the pull-ups out of the package (they were found askew) and insist she wear it. Supposedly there was a 'riff' about JB wanting to wear the star shirt rather than the red turtleneck, so by the time they got done fussing about that, I can envision Patsy just saying, "Fine - just hurry up and get dressed and you WILL wear this pull-up!"

Of course, spark plug that she was, once she was left to finish the job, JB could have easily gone to get the fresh clean size 12's out of the package. She would have been proud, too, to select Wednesday, being in kindergarten, 6 years old, and probably at least capable of recognizing the days of the week. With it being Christmas that Wednesday, all the more reason to want the right pair on.

As the events of the killing unfolded, if she had already been wearing them, the killer would have simply decided to re-use them since they most likely would have been at hand, having been removed for the vaginal assault?

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
We do not play games here at websleuths. You appear to be under the illusion that any RDI interpretation is as valid as any other. Sadly the forensic evidence can demonstrate otherwise.


You cannot be serious! A victim lies on her back to be fed with pineapple, please go away and rethink.

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No one has said that, please go away and re-read.

Chelly, in post 681 asks "Can we really say that the bowl of pineapple snack indicates JB was up and walking around? "

You replied yes. I replied no.

The issue is not whether she's awake, or whether she is on her back. The issue is whether or not she had to be up. Not whether it's likely, but whether she must have been.

We all make reading mistakes, you have made one. Go back to the original question and see what is being asked, and what is being said in response.

The rest of your post doesn't merit a reply.

 

[UKGuy]

No one has said that, please go away and re-read.

Chelly, in post 681 asks "Can we really say that the bowl of pineapple snack indicates JB was up and walking around? "

You replied yes. I replied no.

The issue is not whether she's awake, or whether she is on her back. The issue is whether or not she had to be up. Not whether it's likely, but whether she must have been.

We all make reading mistakes, you have made one. Go back to the original question and see what is being asked, and what is being said in response.

The rest of your post doesn't merit a reply.

The rest of your post doesn't merit a reply.

Say no more!

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[Chrishope]

At this point, I also see JR as the re-dresser. And, to me, it makes the most sense that he would have been the one to choose them, no matter what location they came from, because he was the personality who demonstrated a high degree of organization and attention to details - according to a couple of published accounts over the years.

It has been suggested, though, that JB actually wore the 12's over a pull-up when going to the White's party. It might have been HER decision to do so, since Patsy was vague about the final choices for that outing. I can easily accept that if JB knew the 12's were in her drawer, and Patsy was insisting she wear a pull-up in case of an 'accident', JB might have thought it less embarrassing to cover them over for one reason or another. Under her pants, they wouldn't have been very noticeably bulky. Patsy may not have supervised her very well as she was dressing - just long enough to grab one of the pull-ups out of the package (they were found askew) and insist she wear it. Supposedly there was a 'riff' about JB wanting to wear the star shirt rather than the red turtleneck, so by the time they got done fussing about that, I can envision Patsy just saying, "Fine - just hurry up and get dressed and you WILL wear this pull-up!"

Of course, spark plug that she was, once she was left to finish the job, JB could have easily gone to get the fresh clean size 12's out of the package. She would have been proud, too, to select Wednesday, being in kindergarten, 6 years old, and probably at least capable of recognizing the days of the week. With it being Christmas that Wednesday, all the more reason to want the right pair on.

As the events of the killing unfolded, if she had already been wearing them, the killer would have simply decided to re-use them since they most likely would have been at hand, having been removed for the vaginal assault?

Pretty much agree, at least it makes a lot of sense, but you know me - I have to throw a monkey wrench into the gears. What about the nightgown? If she's in 12s at the party, and wearing them over pull ups makes sense, then do you figure she was actually put in ljs when arriving home?

 

[midwest mama]

gramcracker,
I think you make some excellent points, probably lost on some RDI proponents. Personality matters big time in homicide cases, it sometimes is submerged in the minutea of detail.

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Agree. Because personality traits can be associated with what drives motive. Aside of accidental death, motive remains at the core of deliberate homicides, IMO.

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama,
mmm, interesting backtracking here. so JonBenet in your opinion is the author of her own dressing, not really a view I can suscribe to.

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene which includes the size-12's, so stick this in your pipe and smoke on it.


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UK - With all due respect, you have, in the past seen fit to post some rude remarks with regard to your wishes for other poster's thoughts and theories, which usually lead to you later on making excuses for it by passing it off to some indiscretion on your part, and offering apologies.

I don't expect you to be able to refrain from some of the things you say which tend to discredit your obvious intellect, since it happens repeatedly. But I caution you that should you decide to impose your absolute opinions on others with continued crude directives, some of us may wish to block you from our readings.

I would hate to miss some of the very informative things you offer, when you are posting in a state of mind that is not being altered by whatever it is that must be altering it.

:chillout: and come on around with some reciprocal respect, eh?