Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[Baznme]

Are you talking about the cheese and such? The way I understood it the defense expert was testifying that these items naturally contain trace amounts of chloroform, not that it was residue.

Let me go check the testimonies. BRB

 

[Chewy]

I posted this elsewhere but now I'm pretty sure on premeditation


One of the things I've not been able to wrap my mind around in this whole thing is how Casey could think she would have gotten away with 31 days.

And as I've been thinking about it, it's strange, on the one hand it points to her guilt IMHO but on the other I'm not sure why she thought she could be out for 31 days partying the night away. She had to have figured how this would have looked once they caught up with her.

Got me to thinking maybe the Zanny story was part of a bigger plan. Maybe she wanted to pretend someone came to the house and killed George and Cindy and act like it was a home invasion and Caylee was kidnapped. Maybe that's what the chloroform and neck breaking were all about. Knock Cindy out, break her neck then knock herself out with chloroform.

Maybe she thought she could create this scenario where Zanny has been watching Caylee all this time. Suddenly Zanny shows up at the house with some thugs and demands Caylee, trying to kidnap her. According to Casey's story Cindy tries to stop them because she loves and protects the baby and gets killed.

In this way her story DOES add up. She's trusted Zanny all this time. She's been out partying and doing normal things as if nothing is wrong. She's suddenly betrayed by the sitter. She wouldn't have to dispose of Caylee because by then she was already dead and buried in a staged way that backed up a kidnapping gone wrong.

The nanny then turns out to be an illegal alien who stole the baby and ran away. In the jailhouse tapes she says to tell the police to look in NYC and other states where Zanny supposedly had lived.

I was thinking that maybe she got caught halfway through the plan. If she hadn't she could have acted like everything was normal for weeks as she was building up towards the murder of her parents. And this is why she kept asking for one more day.

 

[kimmera]

You are right. Her failure to call 911 is not proof of murder. Neither is her failure to ever report her child missing. Neither were her intense attempts to mislead law enforcement who were desperate to find Caylee. casey's continual lies for months, to her mom and dad and Lee about what happened to Caylee and her efforts to send them on a wild goose chase, do not prove murder either.

Neither do searches on the internet, months before her daughter's death, for chloroform, neck breaking, inhalation, death, etc.

And high peaks of a volatile chemical like chloroform, found in the trunk of casey's car, actually causing the state to search the Anthony computers for chloroform queries, well, that's not proof of murder either.

The smell of death coming out of the car that only casey drove for the 31 days before Caylee was reported missing, that does not prove murder.

casey's attempts to cover up that smell, by mentioning a dead squirrel, by dumping the car next to a garbage receptacle, that also does not prove murder.

Showing no terror, panic, grief or concern for her dead child in the 31 days after she went missing, that does not prove murder.

Showing nothing but anger and annoyance during the time she was in jail, whenever concern was shown for Caylee rather than casey, well, that also doesn't prove murder.

Even a triple bagged body dumped in a swamp doesn't conclusively prove murder, although we are getting closer.

And finally, perhaps someone can argue that a tiny, two year old skull, found in the mud with duct tape around its nose and mouth holes, the degradable mandible still firmly attached to the the skull because of that duct tape, is not evidence of murder (although I would disagree). Yes, perhaps, one could argue that that duct taped skull is not in an of itself, proof of murder.

But no one here has ever argued that any one of each of those things I listed, proves murder, in and of itself.

What I believe they all show, however, when taken together, is probably obvious. And I have no doubt.

Gitana you rock!:rocker: Are you sure you are not LDB? :seeya:

 

[Chablis]

You are right. Her failure to call 911 is not proof of murder. Neither is her failure to ever report her child missing. Neither were her intense attempts to mislead law enforcement who were desperate to find Caylee. casey's continual lies for months, to her mom and dad and Lee about what happened to Caylee and her efforts to send them on a wild goose chase, do not prove murder either.

Neither do searches on the internet, months before her daughter's death, for chloroform, neck breaking, inhalation, death, etc.

And high peaks of a volatile chemical like chloroform, found in the trunk of casey's car, actually causing the state to search the Anthony computers for chloroform queries, well, that's not proof of murder either.

The smell of death coming out of the car that only casey drove for the 31 days before Caylee was reported missing, that does not prove murder.

casey's attempts to cover up that smell, by mentioning a dead squirrel, by dumping the car next to a garbage receptacle, that also does not prove murder.

Showing no terror, panic, grief or concern for her dead child in the 31 days after she went missing, that does not prove murder.

Showing nothing but anger and annoyance during the time she was in jail, whenever concern was shown for Caylee rather than casey, well, that also doesn't prove murder.

Even a triple bagged body dumped in a swamp doesn't conclusively prove murder, although we are getting closer.

And finally, perhaps someone can argue that a tiny, two year old skull, found in the mud with duct tape around its nose and mouth holes, the degradable mandible still firmly attached to the the skull because of that duct tape, is not evidence of murder (although I would disagree). Yes, perhaps, one could argue that that duct taped skull is not in an of itself, proof of murder.

But no one here has ever argued that any one of each of those things I listed, proves murder, in and of itself.

What I believe they all show, however, when taken together, is probably obvious. And I have no doubt.

But...... something is not right with her, and the defense and everyone who really knows her has shown this. She couldnt be truthful about graduation, or pregnancy, or her job, I mean did Cindy and George ever wonder about her lack of money?

When Caylee died, she was supposed to be at work, had she called 911 she would have had to explain immediately why she was home.... she has a weird thinking coping realization process, and this is not anything new...... there is a history of this. And anyone who knows anything about the law knows Baez can only deal with what she tells him. I think the Kronk/George stuff, is just another example of Caseys lies and desperation, and I think any juror with anyone mentally ill in their family, may have sympathy and experience with someone like her and can see the extent of this mental illness.

Had the State actually shown her on tape buying chloroform components on tape like they had her on tape with Amys checks, this would be a slam dunk case.

Something is mentally wrong with Casey, I have no doubts she blew something out of proportion. jmo

 

[GeekyGirl]

Let me go check the testimonies. BRB

If you find something, let me know. I just read through the transcriptions on here and I didn't see anything except for Dr Furman talking about the items naturally containing trace amounts of chloroform, but I totally could have missed something.

 

[katydid23]

Let me tell you, right before Jose blew it by calling Jeff "laughing man," he had me doubting her guilt. But I quickly slapped myself.

But there are a few things I don't get. If Casey duct taped the baby's mouth, it would have had to be done at home because that's where they found the duct tape, unless she took a roll of it somewhere else. But no duct tape was found at Tony's, or in her car or anywhere else but the Anthony home. So, what, George leaves for work on that Monday, and she tapes up her mouth tosses her in the trunk and takes off for Tony's?

I also don't get that, if she was lying about working for two years, (1) didn't her parents wonder why she had no money, or (2) where did she GET her money, and (3) where were she and Caylee when she was supposed to be working?

I also don't get why, if you kill your kid with duct tape, you'd leave it on the body when you disposed of it. You have to KNOW it will be found some day. Removing the tape at least gives you a fighting chance at denial.

And the $64,000 question, WHY around the corner from your HOUSE?! How bizarre!

Jose would have done better to try her with an insanity defense because you'd have to be insane to do what she did, because the alternative is evil and stupid. And we KNOW she's not stupid. I have a real hard time believing she purposely killed her that way. But I don't have any problem thinking she killed her in an effort to get her to sleep.

These are all questions that have been debated and discussed her for years. I will throw out a few ideas that have been discussed concerning your questions.

Ok, the duct tape. Apparently it was kept in the family garage. So after Casey made the decision to use the tape she knew where to find it. The main question is why did she put it back in the garage if she had put it on her child's face?

In my opinion, she began the framing of George from day one. I think she was the one who put the ladder up for her mom to find, and she put the tape on his gas cans, and she told her friends that her dad used her car and then it smelled like dead animal when it was returned to her. If George had duct taped that child he never would have taken it to the command center with him afterwards. He would have tossed it already.

So, to answer your question, yes, one scenario is that she pretended to leave for work, hen waits down the street until George leaves for work. Then she returns home and takes care of the grisly business. I think she put the baby in her trunk but others think she hid her in the yard. But I doubt that because I do believe the 2 dogs would have gone nuts if they smelled the baby outside in the yard.

As to her lies about the job---George was very suspicious. He even voiced his suspicions, but Cindy got angry and shut him down. George knew Casey was coming back home and hanging out with Caylee there, even though she told Cindy she was at work. Cindy had to know Casey was lying because Casey forged HUNDREDS of checks on her mom's account. So Cindy was just enabling her at that point. But I think Cindy was trying to keep the peace so they could keep Caylee safe with them in their home. Look what happened once they tried to confront Casey?

Why didn't she take off the duct tape? She may have wanted it to look like a kidnapping. As for why the body was so close? There are possible explanations for that. There were lots of cell tower pings around the wooded areas near the airport. The cops saw that her phone pinged there around the 17th and 18th and so they searched that area extensively.I believe she drove around there looking for a dump site. But she chickened out I guess. And for some reason she felt safer going somewhere she knew well. Also some speculate that the day her dad almost got to look in her trunk and she threw the gas cans at him and took off, that she immediately went and threw her into the brush at the closest possible place she could. Again, it only makes sense to me if she is planning to blame it on her dad, which is what she did.

I can see her doing it in a cold blooded way if I think of her as a narcissistic
sociopath. Think Ted Bundy. I think she fools people much like he did, because she mimics others and tries to pretend she is caring and loving. But look at how she acted hours after the child died. She went on a movie date.
No grieving, no regrets, no tears. She was giggling and cuddling and having a great time/ THAT is who she really is.

 

[katydid23]

I posted this elsewhere but now I'm pretty sure on premeditation


One of the things I've not been able to wrap my mind around in this whole thing is how Casey could think she would have gotten away with 31 days.

And as I've been thinking about it, it's strange, on the one hand it points to her guilt IMHO but on the other I'm not sure why she thought she could be out for 31 days partying the night away. She had to have figured how this would have looked once they caught up with her.

Got me to thinking maybe the Zanny story was part of a bigger plan. Maybe she wanted to pretend someone came to the house and killed George and Cindy and act like it was a home invasion and Caylee was kidnapped. Maybe that's what the chloroform and neck breaking were all about. Knock Cindy out, break her neck then knock herself out with chloroform.

Maybe she thought she could create this scenario where Zanny has been watching Caylee all this time. Suddenly Zanny shows up at the house with some thugs and demands Caylee, trying to kidnap her. According to Casey's story Cindy tries to stop them because she loves and protects the baby and gets killed.

In this way her story DOES add up. She's trusted Zanny all this time. She's been out partying and doing normal things as if nothing is wrong. She's suddenly betrayed by the sitter. She wouldn't have to dispose of Caylee because by then she was already dead and buried in a staged way that backed up a kidnapping gone wrong.

The nanny then turns out to be an illegal alien who stole the baby and ran away. In the jailhouse tapes she says to tell the police to look in NYC and other states where Zanny supposedly had lived.

I was thinking that maybe she got caught halfway through the plan. If she hadn't she could have acted like everything was normal for weeks as she was building up towards the murder of her parents. And this is why she kept asking for one more day.

THis is close to what I was thinking. I believe the searches for chloroform and household weapons and neckbreaking was her fantasizing about killing her parents. I think she was contemplating setting up a home invasion or a phony murder-suicide and did not get it done before the big fight on the 15th. She became so enraged and spiteful and jealous that her folks threatened to take custody of Caylee and kick her to the curb that she snapped.

I think that was what the 'one more day please, mom' was all about.

 

[Baznme]

If you find something, let me know. I just read through the transcriptions on here and I didn't see anything except for Dr Furman talking about the items naturally containing trace amounts of chloroform, but I totally could have missed something.

Well.....I did find this. Dr. Marcus Wise testimony

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6729701&postcount=3"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Dr. Marcus Wise testimony (Oakridge Laboratories)[/ame]


and this: Arpad Voss testimony....

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6625535&postcount=15"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Dr. Arpad Voss testimony (Oakridge Laboratories)[/ame]

 

[GeekyGirl]

Well.....I did find this. Dr. Marcus Wise testimony

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Dr. Marcus Wise testimony (Oakridge Laboratories)


and this: Arpad Voss testimony....

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Dr. Arpad Voss testimony (Oakridge Laboratories)

Okay... But those are tests on the carpet samples. We know those tested high, the question is why?

 

[Baznme]

Okay... But those are tests on the carpet samples. We know those tested high, the question is why?

Got it. So, ya think even without the chloroform, the balance of the evidence will stand?

 

[ndrew]

I am afraid of the same thing. If the Defense did a good job in jury selection I think this is VERY likely. DH says it will be a hung jury and he hasn't "followed" the case other then during the trial.

I am worried as well, but I don't want Jose to know.

Hope he isn't reading here tonight.

Prayers for the jury and I hope they get a good nights sleep.

 

[GeekyGirl]

Got it. So, ya think even without the chloroform, the balance of the evidence will stand?

I think so. I hope so. At the very least aggravated manslaughter, but the state had a great closing, so we'll see.

 

[Leomoon80]

Well, IF her personality showed that she could do something as cold blooded as throwing her dead child in her trunk and in a trash filled swamp, then it is relevant to the case, imo. Her personality 'showing through' tells us quite a bit about her. How many people do you know that would not call for the EMT's if they found their child unconscious? And how many of those would slap duct tape around the dead child's face and wrap her in garbage bags? THAT takes a very special type of person to be able to do that. It is much more than immaturity, imo. Being able to go on a movie date, a mere hour or two after finding your child dead---that is more than immaturity, that is evil, imo.

Well, I reserve the right to have my own opinion just as I respect the right of others to their own opinions.
As for mine? I have always maintained that Casey Anthony is mentally ill.
I've never wavered or changed from that opinion, and although I agree that I don't know anyone who would as you say,"throw their child into a garbage bag and slap duct tape around it's face).at least not in their right mind.......I would never be so bold as to judge a mentally deficient person, for I take very very seriously the words of Christ who warned us of the consequence of doing so.

I cannot get into the mind of Casey A.

I have a problem with calling a human being degrading names, and hating her spirit (or person) for her actions and not even benefiting her with a first name (like Tot mom) I think that is rather infantile to do so as it may indeed show more about the person then the object of their scorn to do so.

At least Carl Jung would have said so. And he made a great deal of sense to me at least philosophically speaking.

Her actions I could judge however, as deplorable actions , just not the person herself as I don't believe in "evil souls" and none of her actions however reprehensible are evidence of "pre-meditation", imo.

 

[cluciano63]

Well, I reserve the right to have my own opinion just as I respect the right of others to their own opinions.
As for mine? I have always maintained that Casey Anthony is mentally ill.
I've never wavered or changed from that opinion, and although I agree that I don't know anyone who would as you say,"throw their child into a garbage bag and slap duct tape around it's face).at least not in their right mind.......I would never be so bold as to judge a mentally deficient person, for I take very very seriously the words of Christ who warned us of the consequence of doing so.

I cannot get into the mind of Casey A.

I have a problem with calling a human being degrading names, and hating her spirit (or person) for her actions and not even benefiting her with a first name (like Tot mom) I think that is rather infantile to do so as it may indeed show more about the person then the object of their scorn to do so.
At least Carl Jung would have said so. And he made a great deal of sense to me at least philosophically speaking.

Her actions I could judge however, as deplorable actions , just not the person herself as I don't believe in "evil souls" and none of her actions however reprehensible are evidence of "pre-meditation", imo.

I agree...I think Casey is mentally ill and that she was growing progressively worse in the years since high school but no one wanted to acknowledge it. And I also question the sanity of her driving around with Caylee's body in her trunk, which I do believe she did, but it makes zero sense; it probably took her 5 minutes to dispose of Caylee, once she did so. Any person over the age of 12 knows a body will begin to smell.

I do believe she should be kept from society as I don't think she will ever admit to what she did.

And I loathe the "Tot Mom" label...it gives Nancy Grace some sort of sense of superiority, IMO, in her mind to not acknowledge that Casey has a name.

 

[gngr~snap]

While the prosecution did a great job today I still think the defense raised enough reasonable doubt for at least one or more jurors to hang their hat on when it comes to an acquittal. Not saying it's going to happen but I think the likelihood of a hung jury is much greater than before.

Agreed

Well, I reserve the right to have my own opinion just as I respect the right of others to their own opinions.
As for mine? I have always maintained that Casey Anthony is mentally ill.
I've never wavered or changed from that opinion, and although I agree that I don't know anyone who would as you say,"throw their child into a garbage bag and slap duct tape around it's face).at least not in their right mind.......I would never be so bold as to judge a mentally deficient person, for I take very very seriously the words of Christ who warned us of the consequence of doing so.

I cannot get into the mind of Casey A.

I have a problem with calling a human being degrading names, and hating her spirit (or person) for her actions and not even benefiting her with a first name (like Tot mom) I think that is rather infantile to do so as it may indeed show more about the person then the object of their scorn to do so.

At least Carl Jung would have said so. And he made a great deal of sense to me at least philosophically speaking.

Her actions I could judge however, as deplorable actions , just not the person herself as I don't believe in "evil souls" and none of her actions however reprehensible are evidence of "pre-meditation", imo.

Agreed

My daughter and her friend said the same. They are new to the case. Sadly CA lied.
Biggest reasonable doubt why the state did not allow "abuse" in She thinks they are hiding something has to be mental illlnes or abuse. To them ICA is "slow". The saw a dummy. Ashton said she was smart in closing. red flag to my daughter.

No way ICA had the menatlity it took to pull it off alone behind their backs. they admitted that now they know she didn't have a job...
No child living in your home doesn't bring friends around. CA should have met the fake people or got a clue. If she accepted them had to be she knew of mental illness.
as far a sex abuse... no parent lets a kid steal like that unless the kid has the goods on you to keep you from turning them in.
assonine she said.
if she was on the jury- not guilty!
no proof it was her
mom is a liar
dad never stepped up... why? he CAN'T
makes sense. I'd sentence her to something but I think the whole family knew.
-the 15th!

 

[ladylurker]

Because she thought she still had a chance to get off completely on the homicide charges? After the 31 days, there was no way she was going to be able to get out of a negligent homicide charge. Besides, she didn't know then that it was going to take three years to go to trial. Impulsive decision, without thinking about the long term consequences... Isn't pretty much her style? Again, I don't buy the DT's story, but this isn't proof of murder to me. MOO

BBM - she waived her right to a speedy trial... she must have had some idea that it would take a while, or at least her lawyers must have when explaining the waiver to her and reasons for it.

Let me tell you, right before Jose blew it by calling Jeff "laughing man," he had me doubting her guilt. But I quickly slapped myself.

But there are a few things I don't get. If Casey duct taped the baby's mouth, it would have had to be done at home because that's where they found the duct tape, unless she took a roll of it somewhere else. But no duct tape was found at Tony's, or in her car or anywhere else but the Anthony home. So, what, George leaves for work on that Monday, and she tapes up her mouth tosses her in the trunk and takes off for Tony's?

I also don't get that, if she was lying about working for two years, (1) didn't her parents wonder why she had no money, or (2) where did she GET her money, and (3) where were she and Caylee when she was supposed to be working?

I also don't get why, if you kill your kid with duct tape, you'd leave it on the body when you disposed of it. You have to KNOW it will be found some day. Removing the tape at least gives you a fighting chance at denial.

And the $64,000 question, WHY around the corner from your HOUSE?! How bizarre!

Jose would have done better to try her with an insanity defense because you'd have to be insane to do what she did, because the alternative is evil and stupid. And we KNOW she's not stupid. I have a real hard time believing she purposely killed her that way. But I don't have any problem thinking she killed her in an effort to get her to sleep.

they've had several mental health professionals examine her. i'm sure they would have loved to go with an insanity defense. but i don't think she met the requirements for it at all. at first they rejected the insanity defense for andrea yates, who had postpartum psychosis and was not on her anti-psychotics and had several psych professionals ready to talk about her insanity. she was advised against having more children as she was told it would guarantee a future psychotic depression, hospitalized and in treatment for psychosis well prior to killing her children, and just... clearly insane. the case breaks my heart because of how obvious it was that something horrible was going to happen and how nothing and no one could stop it for whatever reason.

to plead insanity, you must have proof that you were not able to discern right from wrong at the time of the crime. in the yates case, she made sure to kill all of her children when nobody was around (she had an hour between her husband leaving for work and her MIL coming to help out w/the kids) and lock the dog up so no one would prevent her. the fact that she made sure to hide what she was doing made them feel that she did know it was wrong. THAT lady was freaking INSANE and her poor children suffered for it. (on appeal they did get to plead insanity and overturned her conviction.)

it is not enough to have a mental health diagnosis, or qualify for one... it is about whether you legitimately know right from wrong at the time of the crime. if ICA had no idea that it was wrong to kill caylee, she would not have lied so much to ensure she wouldn't get in trouble. i haven't seen any proof that she lies or breaks rules or steals because she thinks it is okay. there really hasn't been any behavior to prove that she was insane and unable to be accountable for something like that. people with a plethora of mental health disorders are still accountable for their actions.

the fact that she has mentioned to AD that she needed to be committed or get mental health help shows to me that she did know something was amiss. she was gleeful about how good of a liar she was and knew what would get her into trouble and what wouldn't, and lied to avoid trouble. that to me shows she does know right from wrong and just wants to avoid consequences... which does not qualify for an insanity defense.

back to the original topic... i felt that the state eliminated any reasonable doubt for me during closing/rebuttal. i was not sold on the chloroform evidence before, but JA explained it really well and i was shocked that they were able to find detectable levels that long afterwards considering how volatile the substance is. and the explanation of the difference of using duct tape to silence (one across the mouth) versus 3... why would you need 3, across the nose and mouth? why would you consciously think about doing any more than 1? 1 covers the mouth. 2 would cover the mouth and nose. 3 would eliminate any air holes. why go to that level? i cannot think of a reasonable reason for the chloroform or duct tape besides murder. i just cannot come up with any reasonable doubt there. the lying about the chloroform by cindy also convinced me. why commit perjury during a hugely publicized criminal trial over something meaningless?

so, IMO, any reasonable doubt the defense may have created has been squashed into non-existence for me.

 

[SarahEcho]

There is reasonable doubt but I still think there is enough there to find her culpable for negligence as well as the host of charges ensuing from atrocious behavior of a wild goose chase for LE and the emotional well being of so many people.

Even if George was yelling at her as he held her dead child, she still could have and should have called for help ASAP.

 

[Leomoon80]

There is reasonable doubt but I still think there is enough there to find her culpable for negligence as well as the host of charges ensuing from atrocious behavior of a wild goose chase for LE and the emotional well being of so many people.

Even if George was yelling at her as he held her dead child, she still could have and should have called for help ASAP.

Unless I missed something, and I don't think I did....I don't think Jose Baez gave us the story his client Casey gave to him, (IF indeed it originated with Casey as the "drowning episode")

For instance, did Baez tell the court anything more then George held the dead child? .....If in any way he has any kind of evidence to support this theory of his, then George A. needs to be arrested for he broke the law just as much as his daughter did.

But I think (unless I missed something of this), that is as far as his theory went.
What about WHO wrapped the child in the tarp/plastic bags, etc. with duct tape??

Did George supposedly do this too?'

Makes no sense then, .......and Baez wasn't served to do this to the court or jury.

He "lost me" right after the Duct Tape theory and Gas Can.

One can easily discern George A. and the entire family lies.....yet to accuse someone of hiding a dead drowning victm, what would have been the point for the Father (grandfather of CAyley) to do so? :waitasec:

Perhaps the appeal will be on "improper counsel" after all.

I thought he was good, but again, didn't follow up with the "And George helped" theory.
IF he (Baez) made this up because he didn't know how else to defend Casey, then his conscience will be his guide, AND IF he never listens to his conscience, then his soul surely will judge him too, when he crosses over .

Eventually ALL will need to then justify their own actions and judgements, their finger-pointing.

But to make up more lies on top of your clients lies........well, to what end?

The road to hell is as they say, "paved with good intentions"

 

[minazoe]

i say by 2 tomorrow.

verdict.

 

[songline]

Well, I reserve the right to have my own opinion just as I respect the right of others to their own opinions.
As for mine? I have always maintained that Casey Anthony is mentally ill.
I've never wavered or changed from that opinion, and although I agree that I don't know anyone who would as you say,"throw their child into a garbage bag and slap duct tape around it's face).at least not in their right mind.......I would never be so bold as to judge a mentally deficient person, for I take very very seriously the words of Christ who warned us of the consequence of doing so.

I cannot get into the mind of Casey A.

I have a problem with calling a human being degrading names, and hating her spirit (or person) for her actions and not even benefiting her with a first name (like Tot mom) I think that is rather infantile to do so as it may indeed show more about the person then the object of their scorn to do so.

At least Carl Jung would have said so. And he made a great deal of sense to me at least philosophically speaking.

Her actions I could judge however, as deplorable actions , just not the person herself as I don't believe in "evil souls" and none of her actions however reprehensible are evidence of "pre-meditation", imo.

I know I had a glass of wine tonight (I really need to get some sleep)
BUT AS I WAS READING - I was saying to myself :waitasec: when did I write this? :floorlaugh:

Yes you speak my mind so well Leomoon80.. KC is MI, and I will not believe anything different;
She deserves to be punished for Criminal Negligence but she is not evil she is sick. I totally agree with you.
I left this case last summer because it was a hanging I did not agree with.
I do hope she gets punished, but as a MI person. I do not think she is safe out in the world at large.