Henry Lee's new book, anyone?

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I presume from this that you believe the intruder not only entered the house but cased it as well, looking around. Why?

If the intent was to kidnap her, why worry about an obscure room in the basement?
If the intent was to kidnap her as well as molest her, why stay in the house to do it? You mentioned noise, well the least noisy and safest place to assault a child you've kidnapped is pretty much anywhere other than the place you kidnapped her.

The room is right by the furnace and water heater. Most people would assume that room is full of other similar appliances and not even be curious enough to check it out. Police didn't...and police are the nosiest people in the world with rampant curiosity about everything. I don't think they were thorough enough, either, but I think it's telling they didn't even notice that room.

Also, my experience is most people do not touch rooms with things like water heaters, furnaces and ACs in case they bump something. Anyone who was burned on old fashioned radiator and heating grates know exactly what I'm saying!

I believe something happened that caused him to take her to the basement rather than out of the house. Whether something happened once he had her, or he wanted to make it look bad for the R's.

BBM: There is no excuse for the police not looking in that room. They should have gone through that house with a fine tooth comb, Opening every door and cubby. There is no way that JR should have been sent to search again.

It is ridiculous how they handled it from moment 1.

I would never assume anything when looking around a basement. You open everything up and look.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

According to John and Patsy, JonBenet would not get up during the night and would never go downstairs alone or with a stranger. According to Patsy, she could hear things going on at night and that's why she always left JonBenet's door ajar and a night line on.

Sure, there's a first time for everything, but Intruders kidnapping a child in the middle of the night is not a first-time event. CASKU opinions are not to be sneezed at, imo

Gregg McCreary, Robert Ressler, and Roy Hazelwood are all FBI profilers (and in that field as long as Douglas), with Hazelwood specializing in sex crimes. Their opinions, in the main, dissent with Douglas's opinion. Btw, I believe Douglas, fairly recently, stated that he made his analysis based on data the Ramsey lawyers furnished him and an interview with John Ramsey. I've not seen a comment on whether or not he interviewed Patsy.

Most of the time if one wants the truth one will gather, test/analyse, and correlate the evidence, both direct and indirect, and continue reevaluating as new data comes in or at least that's how professionals do it.

Whether they think that is true or not, It does not mean it would not happen.
For whatever reason no one heard it or heard movement and thought it was someone else in the house. My dh gets up and down at night, My kids get up and go to the bathroom or whatever. Every noise you hear in your house is not going to wake you. Also as your kids get older you hear less.

I am good with Douglas's thoughts. They make sense and apply well to the case.

 

[2 percent]

I believe something happened that caused him to take her to the basement rather than out of the house. Whether something happened once he had her, or he wanted to make it look bad for the R's.

BBM: There is no excuse for the police not looking in that room. They should have gone through that house with a fine tooth comb, Opening every door and cubby. There is no way that JR should have been sent to search again.

It is ridiculous how they handled it from moment 1.

I would never assume anything when looking around a basement. You open everything up and look.

Wait, back up. I think faster than I write sometimes.

I agree there is no excuse for the cops not to look in that room. I know I probably confused you but that wasn't my point. My point was that cops are the nosiest people both by professional training and, I think, natural inclination. I think they just plain didn't see the room. Offhand I can't recall how many cops searched the basement before the body was found, but if it was more than one I think that's an extraordinary coincidence.

My point about the appliances was geared toward their friends and family.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Wait, back up. I think faster than I write sometimes.

I agree there is no excuse for the cops not to look in that room. I know I probably confused you but that wasn't my point. My point was that cops are the nosiest people both by professional training and, I think, natural inclination. I think they just plain didn't see the room. Offhand I can't recall how many cops searched the basement before the body was found, but if it was more than one I think that's an extraordinary coincidence.

My point about the appliances was geared toward their friends and family.

I don't think they were looking. I think the did a quick sweep and did not really look for anything. I think they just walked down and looked around but they did not do a proper search for evidence or the little girl. She was right there behind the door.

 

[Nom de plume]

According to John and Patsy, JonBenet would not get up during the night and would never go downstairs alone or with a stranger. According to Patsy, she could hear things going on at night and that's why she always left JonBenet's door ajar and a night light on.

Sure, there's a first time for everything, but Intruders kidnapping a child in the middle of the night is not a first-time event. CASKU opinions are not to be sneezed at, imo

Gregg McCreary, Robert Ressler, and Roy Hazelwood are all FBI profilers (and in that field as long as Douglas), with Hazelwood specializing in sex crimes. Their opinions, in the main, dissent with Douglas's opinion. Btw, I believe Douglas, fairly recently, stated that he made his analysis based on data the Ramsey lawyers furnished him and an interview with John Ramsey. I've not seen a comment on whether or not he interviewed Patsy.

Most of the time if one wants the truth one will gather, test/analyse, and correlate the evidence, both direct and indirect, and continue reevaluating as new data comes in or at least that's how professionals do it.

And $100K isn't going to influence anyone's opinion, right? I do believe I've heard some infamous IDI claim that anyone can "buy" a witness if they want to. "It means nothing."

 

[madeleine]

I don't think they were looking. I think the did a quick sweep and did not really look for anything. I think they just walked down and looked around but they did not do a proper search for evidence or the little girl. She was right there behind the door.

FW opened that door and didn't see anything.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

FW opened that door and didn't see anything.

He is not a cop. A cop should have opened the door found a light or supplied one. That is their job..

 

[Chelly]

FW opened that door and didn't see anything.

I think that's why, when JR was missing for an hour or so around 10 that morning, he dragged the body nearer the WC door. So, next time door was opened, the body could be seen.

 

[madeleine]

He is not a cop. A cop should have opened the door found a light or supplied one. That is their job..

No,but I am sure he's not blind.

 

[madeleine]

I think that's why, when JR was missing for an hour or so around 10 that morning, he dragged the body nearer the WC door. So, next time door was opened, the body could be seen.

Yep...I really would like to know whether FW mentioned anything to JR re his trip to the basement,places he checked,etc.Maybe that's when JR got the idea to move the body.

 

[Nom de plume]

I agree it's possible JR moved the body closer to the door. The thing that doesn't make sense, at least to me, is that if he did, it would mean that he wanted her to be found. So that would pretty much wipe out any theory that he intended to dump her elsewhere after LE left the house. It does however make me wonder about him wanting her found in the house to keep the FBI out of it.

 

[madeleine]

does anyone know why the cops changed their mind re bringing over search dogs?I forgot where I read this.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

does anyone know why the cops changed their mind re bringing over search dogs?I forgot where I read this.

Another big mistake.

 

[madeleine]

Another big mistake.

yep,those lucky lucky Ramsey's

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

yep,those lucky lucky Ramsey's

Not lucky at all. Had they done their job correctly, this crime would have most likely have been solved. There were so many errors early on.

I think one of the reason the R's have been so vilified is because the police made such a mess of it.

 

[otg]

I agree it's possible JR moved the body closer to the door. The thing that doesn't make sense, at least to me, is that if he did, it would mean that he wanted her to be found. So that would pretty much wipe out any theory that he intended to dump her elsewhere after LE left the house. It does however make me wonder about him wanting her found in the house to keep the FBI out of it.

Just spitballing here (as KoldKase likes to call it)... But IF the body was moved (and we’ll never know for certain that it was or was not), it could have been that it was first placed in the WC to be hidden with the intent of later disposing of it after the cops left. Could be that after it became apparent they weren’t leaving, or that conversation might have been overheard about sniffer dogs being brought in, or even that after consideration was given to the FBI’s involvement as long as it was being considered a kidnapping... maybe then the decision was made to move the body closer to the doorway so as to be found. This could easily have been done during JR’s disappearance when he later admitted to having gone down to the basement. The livor mortis pattern on her body would not be disturbed too much if her body was simply slid across the floor a little by pulling the blanket she was lying on (although this should have left an indication of it in the dust/dirt on the floor), or she could even have been lifted up enough to move her a few feet closer to the door.

To me, there are just too many variables there to be able to make a conclusion -- too much speculation about what the people involved were thinking -- or maybe it’s just because it’s all too much for my little brain. But I am still open to any of these possibilities.

 

[UKGuy]

Just spitballing here (as KoldKase likes to call it)... But IF the body was moved (and we’ll never know for certain that it was or was not), it could have been that it was first placed in the WC to be hidden with the intent of later disposing of it after the cops left. Could be that after it became apparent they weren’t leaving, or that conversation might have been overheard about sniffer dogs being brought in, or even that after consideration was given to the FBI’s involvement as long as it was being considered a kidnapping... maybe then the decision was made to move the body closer to the doorway so as to be found. This could easily have been done during JR’s disappearance when he later admitted to having gone down to the basement. The livor mortis pattern on her body would not be disturbed too much if her body was simply slid across the floor a little by pulling the blanket she was lying on (although this should have left an indication of it in the dust/dirt on the floor), or she could even have been lifted up enough to move her a few feet closer to the door.

To me, there are just too many variables there to be able to make a conclusion -- too much speculation about what the people involved were thinking -- or maybe it’s just because it’s all too much for my little brain. But I am still open to any of these possibilities.

otg,
My take on this aspect is, assuming RDI, then JR will minimally tidy up on the forensic evidence front.

JonBenet may indeed have been moved from one location in the basement to the wine-cellar?

I have a reason for thinking this, which is backed up by indirect forensic evidence, although in my BDI I use the same reasoning to hide the size-12's?

If you consider the issues the R's had to contend with, i.e some stuff they knew might be found, but some other stuff they wished nobody would find or even know about?

Initially the R's might have thought given their wealth and status that a kidnapped JonBenet, with her body hidden away in the house, would be sufficient to create the illusion of JonBenet removed from the house. Due to their age they never factored in the the media , e.g. the internet.

It looks to me that JR was fire-fighting that morning of 12/26/1996. Depending on your favorite RDI hangs which fire he managed to put out?

I reckon experience should trump theory so when Fleet White looks into the wine-cellar and does not see JonBenet, this I think should be accepted at face value?

Which suggests JR moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar?


.

 

[Chrishope]

There could not have been any reasonable expectation of LE visiting the house and leaving w/o finding the body.

If the body was moved from deep in the WC to a point closer to the door, we have FW's incompetent search, which could not be counted upon.

If the body were moved from somewhere else in the basement to the WC, we have incompetent searching by the police, which also couldn't be counted upon (even with BPD)

Any rational person would have anticipated dogs being brought in early on.

There is simply no way that there was ever a plan to dump the body after called LE and waiting for them to leave w/o finding the body.

 

[UKGuy]

There could not have been any reasonable expectation of LE visiting the house and leaving w/o finding the body.

If the body was moved from deep in the WC to a point closer to the door, we have FW's incompetent search, which could not be counted upon.

If the body were moved from somewhere else in the basement to the WC, we have incompetent searching by the police, which also couldn't be counted upon (even with BPD)

Any rational person would have anticipated dogs being brought in early on.

There is simply no way that there was ever a plan to dump the body after called LE and waiting for them to leave w/o finding the body.

Chrishope,
we have FW's incompetent search, which could not be counted upon.

Incompetent, how so?

we have incompetent searching by the police

maybe, might just be happenstance.

Fleet White offers experience over theory, he says he saw nothing, OK maybe he was blind-sighted, but given the context, I reckon he looked and saw no body?

This is relevant as JR offers alternative testimony. Its not as if FW is on a beach viewing the bathers.

JR might have concoted a crime-scene which FW knew never existed hours before?


.
.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
we have FW's incompetent search, which could not be counted upon.

Incompetent, how so?


maybe, might just be happenstance.

Fleet White offers experience over theory, he says he saw nothing, OK maybe he was blind-sighted, but given the context, I reckon he looked and saw no body?

This is relevant as JR offers alternative testimony. Its not as if FW is on a beach viewing the bathers.

JR might have concoted a crime-scene which FW knew never existed hours before?


.
.

Incompetent in not having seen a body in the WC. If she was there he should have seen her? Assuming, again, that she was near the door where JR apparently "found" her.

So if he didn't see her, he either didn't look very carefully (incompetence - though that's harsh, and to be fair he wasn't looking for a body wrapped in a blanket) or she wasn't there.

But if she wasn't there, then others failed to find the body where it was (incompetence again). Had dogs been brought in, the body would have been found, so I don't mind calling the cops incompetent - at least the on scene commander. There's no excuse for not calling in the K9 unit, which was in fact on standby.

I don't have a problem with the idea that the body might have been moved.

Again, no reasonable person could have anticipated calling the cops and not having the body found, therefore, that was never the plan.