Holly Bobo found deceased, discussion thread *Arrests* #7

[Tugela]

hmm...

That's quite an assumption.

Not an assumption. When giving statements they are not supposed to divulge specific facts, so they are vague and general if they say anything at all (depending on how professional they are). So that sort of statement will typically be plural rather than singular, even if it refers to a single individual. The idea is to say something without giving away too much information about what exactly you know, since that may compromise your investigation. The same principle applies to any sort of PR really.

It is the same sort of thing that you would do when making a statement that you have "voluminous evidence" when actually it includes 29000 pages of irrelevant documents, for example.

 

[shefner]

Thank God they had enough of something to warrant indictments against these evildoers.

I have zero doubt they are guilty. And I mean zero. The locals can yawn if they want to but they were the very ones that pinpointed these guys when the crime first happened. Made me wonder what took so long for LE and TBI to catch up. ZA, especially, should have been considered by them on day one. He's a villain of the worst sort.

There is more to this case and the legal system in Decatur County than we know my friends....

 

[Chainsaw385]

Not an assumption........

It is the same sort of thing that you would do when making a statement that you have "voluminous evidence" when actually it includes 29000 pages of irrelevant documents, for example.

Unless you have reviewed the 33k pages of discovery.........you are once again making an "ASSUMPTION" When you state 29k are irrelevant

I am willing to make my own "ASSUMPTION" though and that is the documents are most certainly related to the case .....or do you think the prosecution printed out a whole bunch of weather reports from ARUBA or something just so they could say they sent 33k pieces of evidence.

The vast majority are not going to show the suspects are guilty but would fall under the scope of discovery.......to say 29k are irrelevant to the case is simply a fabrication of your making.

 

[Tugela]

Unless you have reviewed the 33k pages of discovery.........you are once again making an "ASSUMPTION" When you state 29k are irrelevant

I am willing to make my own "ASSUMPTION" though and that is the documents are most certainly related to the case .....or do you think the prosecution printed out a whole bunch of weather reports from ARUBA or something just so they could say they sent 33k pieces of evidence.

The vast majority are not going to show the suspects are guilty but would fall under the scope of discovery.......to say 29k are irrelevant to the case is simply a fabrication of your making.

Did I say 29000 pages referred to this case? The number was offered as a hypothetical example.

But regarding the discovery in this case, yes, the vast majority of that is going to be irrelevant because it is the entire case file, that would include all the tips and false leads they followed up on for years prior to focusing on the current accused. The state does not get to pick and choose what it hands over, it has to hand over everything, relevant or not. And because of the long period of time involved, there is going to be a ton of irrelevant information in the file.

 

[Tugela]

Thank God they had enough of something to warrant indictments against these evildoers.

I have zero doubt they are guilty. And I mean zero. The locals can yawn if they want to but they were the very ones that pinpointed these guys when the crime first happened. Made me wonder what took so long for LE and TBI to catch up. ZA, especially, should have been considered by them on day one. He's a villain of the worst sort.

There is more to this case and the legal system in Decatur County than we know my friends....

The only thing they would have needed to get an indictment are DA's statements and evidence that HB had been abducted. That would establish probable cause, which is the bar needed to be met in order to go to trial. There is no cross-examination or critical examination of the evidence, it is simply presented and the grand jury asked if probable cause existed based on that. In the trial itself however they would need to prove beyond reasonable doubt, which is a much higher bar. And in a trial the evidence they have would be subject to critical examination, something that doesn't happen in a grand jury.

If they had believed DA's statements (and obviously did) it is not unreasonable that they would have proceeded with indictments on the assumption that additional evidence would be uncovered later. This is not that uncommon. About a year ago, this story was reported in the news. In that particular case a former neighbor was indicted for their murder essentially on the basis of a supposed jailhouse confession and not much else (charges were later dismissed for lack of evidence after it turned out that their witness was making it up). And since we now know they were killed in a car accident not murdered, there obviously was no other evidence for murder. So, assuming that there is a lot of hard evidence simply based on the existence of an indictment is not wise.

 

[katydid23]

Did I say 29000 pages referred to this case? The number was offered as a hypothetical example.

But regarding the discovery in this case, yes, the vast majority of that is going to be irrelevant because it is the entire case file, that would include all the tips and false leads they followed up on for years prior to focusing on the current accused. The state does not get to pick and choose what it hands over, it has to hand over everything, relevant or not. And because of the long period of time involved, there is going to be a ton of irrelevant information in the file.

But those tips and leads that they followed up on are NOT irrelevant. They complete the big picture. They illustrate what the task force was doing---who they cleared, who they interviewed, etc etc. There might be some stuff that is not important, but the majority of it is relevant, imo.

 

[Tugela]

But those tips and leads that they followed up on are NOT irrelevant. They complete the big picture. They illustrate what the task force was doing---who they cleared, who they interviewed, etc etc. There might be some stuff that is not important, but the majority of it is relevant, imo.

Not for the trial. If you go to a library to research a book report, and browse through 30000 books to find a few that are on subject, all those others that are not on subject are irrelevant. The trick is to find the ones that ARE relevant, hidden amongst all the other stuff.

They may have 30000 pages on the investigation, but much less will be about the accused simply because the bulk of the investigation happened before DA fingered them for the crime. And even most of the stuff that is about the accused will probably be rumors and speculation that would not be admissible. So, drawing a conclusion that there are 30000 pages of evidence implicating the accused in the crime simply because there are 30000 pages in the file is wrong thinking.

 

[~n/t~]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but didn't LE check the Adams property way before DA's statement and found nothing? If that's the case, the defense can absolutely use the tips and leads to their advantage. At this time, I don't think we're in a position to make that assumption. They can take the slightest piece of evidence and turn around against the State. JMO

 

[Mercurydime]

Not for the trial. If you go to a library to research a book report, and browse through 30000 books to find a few that are on subject, all those others that are not on subject are irrelevant. The trick is to find the ones that ARE relevant, hidden amongst all the other stuff.

They may have 30000 pages on the investigation, but much less will be about the accused simply because the bulk of the investigation happened before DA fingered them for the crime. And even most of the stuff that is about the accused will probably be rumors and speculation that would not be admissible. So, drawing a conclusion that there are 30000 pages of evidence implicating the accused in the crime simply because there are 30000 pages in the file is wrong thinking.

Discovery does not just consist of evidence implicating the accused. When a defendant files a Brady request, evidence implicating the accused must be turned over, as well as evidence which is exculpatory; however, evidence or "pages" which are unrelated to the arrest of the accused, are not required to be turned over, so the 30k pages of discovery should pertain to the arrests made in the case whether it incriminates or exonerates the defendants.

No judge would allow prosecutors to attempt to befuddle a defense attorney, or waste ones time with 29k pages of irrelevant documents that have only a thousand pages hidden somewhere in their midst which are relevant to the case.

I doubt many of us think that all 30 thousand pages implicate the accused, but to assume that 29 thousand of those pages are irrelevant is wrong. It's not 30 thousand pages of investigatory work that lead nowhere. It's thirty thousand pages of evidence related to the trial at hand, incriminating or exculpatory, which must be presented to the defense.

http://www.ncids.org/Defender Training/2008 New Felony Defender Training/BradyHandout.pdf

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

I'm obsessed with that damn bucket. Its the phrasing in the original news piece.

I was thinking it could be clothes and hair. But then might it also be some kind of gag around the skull? or some kind of hood akin to how poor Shirley Hubbard was found under Fred West in Cromwell Street? This would certainly explain the impact it had on the man who discovered it.

 

[Steleheart]

I'm obsessed with that damn bucket. Its the phrasing in the original news piece.

I was thinking it could be clothes and hair. But then might it also be some kind of gag around the skull? or some kind of hood akin to how poor Shirley Hubbard was found under Fred West in Cromwell Street? This would certainly explain the impact it had on the man who discovered it.

The skull was when he turned around after tipping the bucket AFAIR. I was thinking a gun and hair - Reports are that they cut off her hair. Or the pink top. Something gave him the creeps and a kind of knowing.
"This could be Holly."
Then the skull.

I deleted links and bookmarks, sorry.

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

Why would any of her possessions still be in a bucket after all that time, though?

 

[Mercurydime]

Why would any of her possessions still be in a bucket after all that time, though?

The way the story was told, it sounded like the bucket was upside down. The Ginseng hunter saw it, was curious, and so flipped it over. I have never understood how the bucket could remain there covering human remains for a long period of time. Holly's body may have been moved. The TBI would not allow the Ginseng hunter to tell what all he found. His statement was that he found a skull near the bucket, and other human remains. Something made him think it was Holly Bobo.

http://www.scrippsmedia.com/newscha...obo-It-Will-Be-With-Me-Forever-274824611.html

 

[lonetraveler]

Why do you believe they have little relevant to the charges? If I read the Grand Jury Indictments, it appears there is enough evidence relevant to all charges.

http://www.wbbjtv.com/news/local/Bobo-Grand-Jury-Indictments-Released-304559521.html


I'm guessing the reason for the stalling is this is a death penalty case and they want to dot all their i's and cross their t's. If these guys are guilty, they deserve death. IMO

Grand jury indictments are chilling to read.

 

[Xara]

Grand jury indictments are chilling to read.

Yes they are. Poor Holly.

 

[Dogface]

Nothing to add, just wanted to say I am still here, still praying for justice for Holly. This is the case that brought me to websleuths, and I truly hope it will end with convictions. I have become cynical due to the way some cases have ended, but I still hold on to faith that good prevails and evil always loses.

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

I initially thought it would likely have been hair in the bucket too... but then why place the hair in the bucket? It doesn't make much sense that hair would be in the bucket but remains including the skull would be scattered around the area. The bucket had to be tipped over after all, so little chance that whatever else was at the scene came from the bucket originally.

If we take the presence of the bucket to be used to conceal then it does seem possible it might have been clothes that fell out. might it be possible the bucket was concealing the murder weapon or an item used in the murder?

Is it really an effective strategy to use a bucket to hide something in the woods? If the bucket wasn't being used to conceal then might it have a direct role in the murder? The attempts to quiet the person who discovered it makes me think the bucket might be key in some way. It just seems very strange that someone has taken the pains to use a bucket for some purpose (it is clear something was in it from the quote) while bones have been left seemingly openly in that area. And so my mind spins on around this.

 

[Fireweed]

Sorry to interrupt the flow of the thread here, but can someone help me with one simple question? Okay so I was reading about the case and the arrests this morning, and please understand that I simply do not have time to go through four years worth of posts here. I have read several articles but I cannot figure out how Holly knew her kidnappers and murderers.

She does not live in a big city, the men involved are around her age and appear to be of her social class, and she was seen talking to one of them the morning she was abducted.

She must have at least know OF them. Does anyone know?

 

[Steleheart]

Sorry to interrupt the flow of the thread here, but can someone help me with one simple question? Okay so I was reading about the case and the arrests this morning, and please understand that I simply do not have time to go through four years worth of posts here. I have read several articles but I cannot figure out how Holly knew her kidnappers and murderers.

She does not live in a big city, the men involved are around her age and appear to be of her social class, and she was seen talking to one of them the morning she was abducted.

She must have at least know OF them. Does anyone know?

The annual Coon Hunt Dinner is a common thread as is her Mom being a teacher.

Holly had performed as a singer at the Coon hunt in the past, though she did not perform the night she was allegedly stalked there. Several or all of the A-train are hunters and would likely attend that event often.
Holly's Mom is a teacher and had ZA as a student in middle school or thereabouts. ZA is more CB's age IIRC.

MOO

IMO Holly was known or 'known about'

ETA: I totally forgot the fact that Jason Wayne Autry is Holly Bobo’s second cousin.

 

[Fireweed]

The annual Coon Hunt Dinner is a common thread as is her Mom being a teacher.

Holly had performed as a singer at the Coon hunt in the past, though she did not perform the night she was allegedly stalked there. Several or all of the A-train are hunters and would likely attend that event often.
Holly's Mom is a teacher and had ZA as a student in middle school or thereabouts. ZA is more CB's age IIRC.

MOO

IMO Holly was known or 'known about'

Thanks. But wow that still seems strange to me. If ONE man were involved, then I would drop it at that. Sometimes one crazy dude gets something in head about a female. But how did several men get involved in this? And they're all rapists to boot? It is one thing to help cover up a crime if you are worried you might get into serious trouble, but rape? I do not want to get too gross or detailed, but we're talking "performing" when the female is in a terrified state and is detained and possibly being threatened with a weapon. I always just assumed that it took a special kind of nutcase to do something like that.

Or maybe they're just all being charged with rape under the law that if four men kidnap a woman, and one of them rapes her, then all get charged with rape.

But yeah, most of the time when a group that large gets together to commit a crime, it is something like robbing a bank or drug trafficking.