How bad a mother does it take? European or American ideas?

[shrinkydink]

So you are a law student?
I would think you would know better. You guessed wrong about my knowledge of the law.

Either German or French is fine. Also the Euro law regarding such issues, if you don't mind. English or French is fine.

So far, I don't think I did, or you wouldn't have said Swiss law wasn't based in Roman.

Shrinky

 

[sherri79]

Ooooh - excellent point, Sherri79! Especially the part "children in this age range are known for accidents. The big difference for me is knowing your child faces danger."

Wow. That's huge to me. Why? Because the "knowing your child faces (or could face) danger", goes to the very core ability to assess risk. After seeing evidence of how these two parents conduct a risk assessment - I would hate to be one of their patients.

Seriously, I would put my faith in Blue Ridge Mountain folk medicine, before I would let K & M suggest what my health risks are. Gerry...in cardiology? Gimme a break.


European vs. American sentiments re: leaving children alone
Portugal Law Re: leaving children unattended
Although I have not read the code word-for-word, it has been reported that it is against the law in Portugal, to leave your children unattended. Similarly, in the U.S., you don't have to go very far to dig up a very recent case of a young single mother who leaves her children alone at night - to go party - and was charged with child abandonment; and her children put into CPS. Yet the McCanns did not even face a fine, or the equivalent of a misdemeanor. wtf?

This suggests to me, that Portugese and U.S (American) opinion about child abandonment is very similar.
So, are am I to believe that people felt "sorry" for them? Hmmmm...being "sorry" for them, is not fact-based.

yes but i can point out cases in the U.S. of parents that committed neglect that caused the death of a child and faced no justice. often pity for a parent can lead to charges not being filed. the whole "they are suffering enough" idea comes into play. here i know a DA can choose not to press charges. i have no idea about there.

 

[shrinkydink]

So you are a law student?
I would think you would know better. You guessed wrong about my knowledge of the law.

Either German or French is fine. Also the Euro law regarding such issues, if you don't mind. English or French is fine.

"Euro law"? Switzerland is not part of the European union. Why would we have anything in English? You claim to know the law, but you don't even know Switzerland is not part of that union?

Shrinky

 

[petra]

Ooooh - excellent point, Sherri79! Especially the part "children in this age range are known for accidents. The big difference for me is knowing your child faces danger."

Wow. That's huge to me. Why? Because the "knowing your child faces (or could face) danger", goes to the very core ability to assess risk. After seeing evidence of how these two parents conduct a risk assessment - I would hate to be one of their patients.

Seriously, I would put my faith in Blue Ridge Mountain folk medicine, before I would let K & M suggest what my health risks are. Gerry...in cardiology? Gimme a break.


European vs. American sentiments re: leaving children alone
Portugal Law Re: leaving children unattended
Although I have not read the code word-for-word, it has been reported that it is against the law in Portugal, to leave your children unattended. Similarly, in the U.S., you don't have to go very far to dig up a very recent case of a young single mother who leaves her children alone at night - to go party - and was charged with child abandonment; and her children put into CPS. Yet the McCanns did not even face a fine, or the equivalent of a misdemeanor. wtf?

This suggests to me, that Portugese and U.S (American) opinion about child abandonment is very similar.
So, are am I to believe that people felt "sorry" for them? Hmmmm...being "sorry" for them, is not fact-based.

Yes, you are spot on. It is against the law in PT.
The legal process moves slower-with up to 12 months to charge for a crime.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Thank you for confirming, Petra.
12 months? My goodness, I had no idea. In the U.S., it would be nearly instantaneous. Well, I do hope that the Portugese legal proceedings do not succumb to the campaign for sympathy. I conside the abandonment of the three children, a completely separate matter, from the disappearance of Maddie. The law should not be applied differentially, with preference given to those who can afford a big time spin operation, and the requisite legal defense.

 

[petra]

"Euro law"? Switzerland is not part of the European union. Why would we have anything in English? You claim to know the law, but you don't even know Switzerland is not part of that union?

Shrinky

FYI
http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/switzerland/intro/index.htm
SNIPPET ON BI-LATERAL AGREEMENTS WHICH SUPERCEED CH LAW

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Info on CH-EU LAW AGREEMENTS

Switzerland has also agreed to contribute €125 million per annum over 5 years to social and economic cohesion in the enlarged EU. Following the example of Norway, which will pay about €220 million p.a., .... understanding which was signed on 27 February 2006. It will become operational once the internal procedures for the appropriation of funds are concluded. A public referendum on the contribution, held on 26 November 2006, had a positive outcome with 53% in favour. Switzerland will conclude binding implementing agreements with each beneficiary state.
An EU-Switzerland summit was held on 19 May 2004, attended by Commission President Prodi, Irish Deputy Prime Minister Harney and Swiss President Deiss. The summit marked the political conclusion of the main elements of the bilateral negotiations,.....



Love to Discuss in more depth--but we should move to jury room.

 

[colomom]

It seems to me that "what we have here is a failure to communicate".
--"Captain" in Cool Hand Luke

It is very distressing to me to watch what is happening to this forum that is supposed to be dedicated to Madeleine McCann and (hopefully) finding some justice and peace for a little girl.

While I have always welcomed argument when it furthers the thought process and provides insight to what might have been a previously un-considered idea or point of view, what I cannot stand is argument for the sake of argument. It is disturbing to my spirit to watch this constant back and forth with no apparent forward movement.

Whatever happened to "let's agree to disagree"? In the 4 months that I have participated on this forum I have only seen one thread locked. There seems to have been a fundamental shift somewhere...

It is my opinion that you will never convince someone to consider your way of thinking by beating them over the head with the same "dead fish". The process of teaching another is a tactful one with alot of love and understanding.

Please people, can we have some downtime from this? I hope you have noticed that this "failure to communicate" is causing alot of us alot of stress.

This is entirely my opinion and an expression of my point of view. I will not respond to questions.

 

[shrinkydink]

FYI
http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/switzerland/intro/index.htm
SNIPPET ON BI-LATERAL AGREEMENTS WHICH SUPERCEED CH LAW

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Info on CH-EU LAW AGREEMENTS

Switzerland has also agreed to contribute €125 million per annum over 5 years to social and economic cohesion in the enlarged EU. Following the example of Norway, which will pay about €220 million p.a., .... understanding which was signed on 27 February 2006. It will become operational once the internal procedures for the appropriation of funds are concluded. A public referendum on the contribution, held on 26 November 2006, had a positive outcome with 53% in favour. Switzerland will conclude binding implementing agreements with each beneficiary state.
An EU-Switzerland summit was held on 19 May 2004, attended by Commission President Prodi, Irish Deputy Prime Minister Harney and Swiss President Deiss. The summit marked the political conclusion of the main elements of the bilateral negotiations,.....



Love to Discuss in more depth--but we should move to jury room.

Ok, see you in the jury room, then, even though I think that you seem to not get that a bilateral agreement still means we aren't EU: We have bilaterals out the wazoo - still very much not an EU member state:blowkiss:

Just fyi, though, I tend not to trust anything that is supposedly a legal, bilateral document, yet it spells supercede as "SUPERCEED". It also, tellingly has *nothing to do with the topic of children and/or the laws pertaining to their abandonment*. What you did here is alot like me quoting a text regarding the export of New Jersey lolipops to Lisbon. It's pretty meaningless relative to this situation. Or do you really think that this bilateral means that ALL Swiss law has been superceded by EU law. Oh, no, I can assure you, this has not happened.

Shrinky

 

[Texana]

Yes, but Texas is geographically and legally very far from Europe. We have Roman law here - no silly jury of your peers kind of thing. Judges all the way.

Please refrain from calling our judicial system "silly."

I am personally, very proud of the fact that my ancestors fought and died for the right to a jury of ordinary citizens. As well, the defendant in the United States has the constitutional right to choose either a judge or a jury trial.

 

[bakerprune64]

Please refrain from calling our judicial system "silly."

I am personally, very proud of the fact that my ancestors fought and died for the right to a jury of ordinary citizens. As well, the defendant in the United States has the constitutional right to choose either a judge or a jury trial.

I agree Texana

 

[southcitymom]

I also don't think that this recognizes both. You can be gulity of endangerment, but this does not also make you a non-victim........

This has been a very interesting thread.

I agree with you 100% that even if a parent's own terrible error in judgment plays a part in the death of their child, that parent is still a victim. In fact, their pain in probably even greater than the pain of a parent whose child is snatched and gone and missing under different circumstances (ie - where the parent did not make an error in judgment that contributed to the crime).

Like most people on this board, I would not have left children this age alone in a room while I went out for dinner and drinks. But the McCanns had obviously done this before without returning to find trouble, so their perspective was tempered by their experience.

I don't know anything about Portugal's laws, but I think that had they broken one by leaving the children, we would have heard about it. My jury is still out about whether or not the McCanns were involved in their daughter's disappearance - I have a hard time understanding how or where they could have hidden her body for one thing.

In any event, I do feel tremendous empathy for them.

TOS here states that we don't bash victims, but the bottom line is that who is a victim is in the eye of the beholder. It's not an objective measure. I'm sure people who think an intruder killed JonBenet do not think the JBR forum here complies with the TOS.

Madeleine's parents are obviously suspects and I don't blame authorities for looking at them. But I am not yet ready to make the leap from my opinion that they made a poor parenting decision to an opinion that they murdered their daughter.

Even if it turns out that they had a hand in Madeleine's disappearance, I will continue to have empathy for them. I cannot imagine the type of darkness and confusion a person must be in to harm a child.

Continued prayer's for this young girl's discovery and return.

 

[ceeaura]

Remember I said I saw a you tube video of the brit ? I finally found it again.

Only took me over 24 hours :bang: :doh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gv080vNZ5A&NR=1

She really said it better than i did earlier.

 

[Shazza]

Remember I said I saw a you tube video of the brit ? I finally found it again.

Only took me over 24 hours :bang: :doh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gv080vNZ5A&NR=1

She really said it better than i did earlier.

Great Link ceeaura, I agree with everything she said.

 

[teacherbees]

I also agree with every word she said.

 

[CaliKid]

I do too, and I think most people agree with her. She brings up a very good point- the McCanns should've known better. So why didn't they? Selfishness?

 

[ThoughtFox]

Remember I said I saw a you tube video of the brit ? I finally found it again.

Only took me over 24 hours :bang: :doh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gv080vNZ5A&NR=1

She really said it better than i did earlier.

Great interview! Whew - she really stated her opinion with some forcefulness, and I have to say I agree 100%. :woohoo:

Texana]

Yes, but Texas is geographically and legally very far from Europe. We have Roman law here - no silly jury of your peers kind of thing. Judges all the way.

Please refrain from calling our judicial system "silly."

I am personally, very proud of the fact that my ancestors fought and died for the right to a jury of ordinary citizens. As well, the defendant in the United States has the constitutional right to choose either a judge or a jury trial.

Indeed - I am proud of it, too, Texana.

 

[april4sky]

This has been a very interesting thread.

I agree with you 100% that even if a parent's own terrible error in judgment plays a part in the death of their child, that parent is still a victim. In fact, their pain in probably even greater than the pain of a parent whose child is snatched and gone and missing under different circumstances (ie - where the parent did not make an error in judgment that contributed to the crime).

Like most people on this board, I would not have left children this age alone in a room while I went out for dinner and drinks. But the McCanns had obviously done this before without returning to find trouble, so their perspective was tempered by their experience.

I don't know anything about Portugal's laws, but I think that had they broken one by leaving the children, we would have heard about it. My jury is still out about whether or not the McCanns were involved in their daughter's disappearance - I have a hard time understanding how or where they could have hidden her body for one thing.

In any event, I do feel tremendous empathy for them.

TOS here states that we don't bash victims, but the bottom line is that who is a victim is in the eye of the beholder. It's not an objective measure. I'm sure people who think an intruder killed JonBenet do not think the JBR forum here complies with the TOS.

Madeleine's parents are obviously suspects and I don't blame authorities for looking at them. But I am not yet ready to make the leap from my opinion that they made a poor parenting decision to an opinion that they murdered their daughter.

Even if it turns out that they had a hand in Madeleine's disappearance, I will continue to have empathy for them. I cannot imagine the type of darkness and confusion a person must be in to harm a child.

Continued prayer's for this young girl's discovery and return.

Beautifully said southcitymom. :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[jacobean]

I am a law student in Zurich, so I have to guess my grasp of Swiss law is probably better than yours. I can give you Swiss law links in German or French. Which would you like?

Shrinky, not at all spreading misinformation about Swiss law

Considering the McCanns are not Swiss, i would say the point is moot anyway. The UK does not abide by Swiss Laws (unless its European law and ive never heard of it!), so let me guarantee you that in the UK, it is NOT normal practice to leave your children alone. Having lived in Greece, Germany, Holland, Turkey, England, Scotland and Canada, i can tell you that NOWHERE ive lived has this been common practice.

On another note - the post is on a different page, but the UK is not like "Mary Poppins" i mean, Seriously? I respectfully disagree, I never ate separately from my parents, and neither do my sisters kids or any of my godchildren. The fact that the McCanns left their kids alone, is not indicative of how all British/ European parents treat their children so lets not tar everyone in same geographical area with the same brush, please!!

 

[Shazza]

Considering the McCanns are not Swiss, i would say the point is moot anyway. The UK does not abide by Swiss Laws (unless its European law and ive never heard of it!), so let me guarantee you that in the UK, it is NOT normal practice to leave your children alone. Having lived in Greece, Germany, Holland, Turkey, England, Scotland and Canada, i can tell you that NOWHERE ive lived has this been common practice.

On another note - the post is on a different page, but the UK is not like "Mary Poppins" i mean, Seriously? I respectfully disagree, I never ate separately from my parents, and neither do my sisters kids or any of my godchildren. The fact that the McCanns left their kids alone, is not indicative of how all British/ European parents treat their children so lets not tar everyone in same geographical area with the same brush, please!!

Great post jacobean, I to agree, I was born in England and lived there until I was 9, I have asked my parents if they ever left me and my sister alone, and their answer was no, it was not the proper and legal thing to do.

 

[lakes]

Welcome Lakes.
I agree with you.
Still hoping for a miracle that Madeleine is alive and well cared for somewhere, somehow.

Thanks Petra.

When i look at forums and post on them about this case it easy to forget that we are talking about a small life, Did they do it, they did not do it, stuff like that rules the forums, and yes i also post a lot about that, but then you see a photo of hear just the name and it makes you stop and think of this poor child and how happy the world would be if she was to turn up alive.