How many hours?

[UKGuy]

Or purely coincidental. Other little girls, who have suffered no sexual abuse have also participated in these pagents.



If it were planned well in advance, I doubt the body would have been found in the house. The existance of the RN, along with the body, suggests the RN was an afterthought. They either didn't know how to go about dumping the body, or couldn't bring themselves to do it.

Chrishope,

Or purely coincidental. Other little girls, who have suffered no sexual abuse have also participated in these pagents.

Examine the evidence, its not a lottery, I am not suggesting that you generalise what I think about JonBenet's abuse to other pageant participants, what needs explaining is the role the pageants played in the abuse of JonBenet!

Its not about Other little girls its about Patsy and John and why a millionaires daughter requires pageants to form a sense of identity. Most people have opinions about why Patsy allowed JonBenet to participate, but what about John? The man who allegedly is on record as stating he did not want his daughter taking part in the Royal Miss Nationals when they moved to Las Vegas, why, Patsy told Pam that John didn't want his six-year-old daughter exposed to Vegas!

So what makes Vegas different, at other pageants and subsequent ones, JonBenet perfects her walk, her turns, her wave, and her adult poses, but John says not Vegas, how come?

Who purchased JonBenet's videos, who allowed her to fall asleep most nights viewing them, mostly Shirley Temple videos? In the 1995 Boulder Christmas Parade, she sang and waved from a float named the Good Ship Lollipop which was built by her grandfather, so possibly the penchant for this theme runs in the family?

On a wall, down in the basement, were three framed movie posters: Star Trek, Somewhere in Time, and the third depicting Spencer Tracey and Frank Sinatra in The Devil at 4 O'Clock. Profilers are on record stating that many of the pedophiles they arrest seem to be Trekkies and belong to its online subculture!

So the Shirley Temple, Spencer Tracey, and Frank Sinatra generation of role models were not forgotten in the Ramsey household, nope they were up on the walls, framed, and on video for JonBenet to view.

So who was Shirley Temple's proposer, Patsy, John or Grandfather?



.

 

[Becba]

So John is basically slipping up. Getting the first trip to the basement mixed up with the time he "found" JonBenet.

 

[Chrishope]

So John is basically slipping up. Getting the first trip to the basement mixed up with the time he "found" JonBenet.

Yeah, that's the explanation that makes most sense to me.

 

[icedtea4me]

So John is basically slipping up. Getting the first trip to the basement mixed up with the time he "found" JonBenet.

Yes, because it was during that first trip alone, I believe, is when he went to check on her, so to speak. And I distinctly remember hearing John say "downscares" instead of "downstairs".


-Tea

 

[Chrishope]

Examine the evidence, its not a lottery, I am not suggesting that you generalise what I think about JonBenet's abuse to other pageant participants, what needs explaining is the role the pageants played in the abuse of JonBenet!

We simply don't know, do we? JB's mother was Miss WV, as was her aunt. This was a big thing in PR's life, I can see why she might think it's proper for her daughter to participate in pagents. And if one doesn't start young, one probably won't be successful.

I think JB was sexually molested, prior to the 25/26th, but whether that has anything at all to do with pagents is pure speculation, as far as I can see.

It could be that pagent participation played right into paedo fantasies. It could also be completely coincidental.

Its not about Other little girls its about Patsy and John and why a millionaires daughter requires pageants to form a sense of identity. Most people have opinions about why Patsy allowed JonBenet to participate, but what about John? The man who allegedly is on record as stating he did not want his daughter taking part in the Royal Miss Nationals when they moved to Las Vegas, why, Patsy told Pam that John didn't want his six-year-old daughter exposed to Vegas!

Again, because of her mother's success in the pagents. JB could have formed some other identity, but PR wasn't likely to encourage her to be a cop or a lawyer, etc. Patsy's ticket to success was the pagents, so I don't see anything at all odd in her encouraging JB in this. JR probably went along because that's what PR wanted.

So what makes Vegas different, at other pageants and subsequent ones, JonBenet perfects her walk, her turns, her wave, and her adult poses, but John says not Vegas, how come?

Why not Vegas? It is known as sin city. Very religious people sometimes have an objection to the place, just because of it's gambling and "loose" morals. I can't really explain the thinking, because I'm not religious, but I know certain conservative churches tend to frown on Vegas.

Who purchased JonBenet's videos, who allowed her to fall asleep most nights viewing them, mostly Shirley Temple videos? In the 1995 Boulder Christmas Parade, she sang and waved from a float named the Good Ship Lollipop which was built by her grandfather, so possibly the penchant for this theme runs in the family?

Possibly. I'd think ST would be a great role model - that is, if one wanted one's daughter participating in pagents. Perhaps they hoped JB would pick up some manerisms?

On a wall, down in the basement, were three framed movie posters: Star Trek, Somewhere in Time, and the third depicting Spencer Tracey and Frank Sinatra in The Devil at 4 O'Clock. Profilers are on record stating that many of the pedophiles they arrest seem to be Trekkies and belong to its online subculture!

Interesting, but I don't know that there is evidence that a high percentage of Trekies are peados.

So the Shirley Temple, Spencer Tracey, and Frank Sinatra generation of role models were not forgotten in the Ramsey household, nope they were up on the walls, framed, and on video for JonBenet to view.

Not sure what you're getting at. I can't see FS or ST as a role model for a little girl. FS had some success in movies, but much more success as a singer.

So who was Shirley Temple's proposer, Patsy, John or Grandfather?
.

I don't know. My guess - Patsy.

 

[JMO8778]

Why not Vegas? It is known as sin city. Very religious people sometimes have an objection to the place, just because of it's gambling and "loose" morals. I can't really explain the thinking, because I'm not religious, but I know certain conservative churches tend to frown on Vegas.

From a businessman's standpoint,that may be why JR didn't want her there.Going to church and keeping a clean image can be imprt.Not that dressing her up like a 21 yo was any better,but it wasn't Vegas either.

 

[icedtea4me]

I see there have been two votes placed for "seven hours", yet I don't see the word "seven" in John Ramsey's statement. Maybe it's that I'm not seeing it, like it's in some kind of invisible type. Could someone help me out here and show me where "seven" is in what John said?


-Tea

I'm still waiting for an answer to my query, especially from those of you who chose "seven hours" as your vote.


-Tea

 

[Eagle1]

JMO8778,

Yes JonBenet's death appears deliberate and intentional, whether it was premeditated is up for debate.

It appears as if she was sexually assaulted first then cleaned up, and redressed to hide this, with Patsy possibly inserting the paintbrush to explain away the acute injury? Coroner Meyer will know if the missing piece of the paintbrush handle was left inside JonBenet?

I doubt she was sexually abused in the basement, the whole house was available for this purpose, e.g. the den, JR's bedroom etc. But JonBenet fits the profile of child being sexually abused, her pageant appearances could simply have been part and parcel of her grooming and induction into adult sexual behaviour.

The pageants may have fulfilled a psychological need in both parents, Patsy's has been well documented, less so has JR's, but it is worth noting that JonBenet's pageant role models will have been a prior generations little girl star's, or potential fantasy material for male pedophiles from that generation. In short who taught JonBenet her sexualized routines and were they incorporated into her sexual abuse?.......

The photographing of children in this manner is something pedophiles habitually undertake........

Was JonBenet's death planned, its unlikely since its execution was a mess, to be blunt.......

But I would suggest she was being sexually abused prior to her death, possibly incorporating her to be dressed up in pageant mode, she may have been taped or photographed, hence the missing tapes? So was JonBenet fed the pineapple literally as a sweetner prior to her abuse, did a sexual rage overtake her killer, because JonBenet found the courage to say no?

Replying to your last question first, "did a sexual rage overtake her killer because JonBenet found the courage to say no?" This rage would have started at the party on the 23rd, I believe, when she was allegedly found crying on some back steps, and probably was making the interrupted 911 call. That was a way of saying no.

Probably it was after this that someone told her to expect another visit from Santa after Christmas, a secret, not to tell anyone. It was planned at least that long, I think, maybe longer if reports are true about hate propagandists in other parts of the country (Charlevoix, Waterford, Mi., maybe Seattle or Shreveport, depending on what that letter was about) destroying sympathy for the R's well in advance.

["The photographing of children in this manner is something pedophiles habitually undertake."] .......

Good point.

Couple of things about PR that your post brings to mind. (1) As a woman, I can't break my paint brushes, not even the smaller ones. (2) As a mother, I'm sure no mother would put size 12 panties on her six yr old.,,, Unless, of course, she knew that would throw suspicion on some man rather than her.

You see, to be fair and balanced, as O'Reilly says, I sometimes argue both sides, but never exclude either side as suspects. There were very odd things about several of the "friends". Something very strange going on.

 

[JMO8778]

Replying to your last question first, "did a sexual rage overtake her killer because JonBenet found the courage to say no?" This rage would have started at the party on the 23rd, I believe, when she was allegedly found crying on some back steps, and probably was making the interrupted 911 call. That was a way of saying no.

Probably it was after this that someone told her to expect another visit from Santa after Christmas, a secret, not to tell anyone. It was planned at least that long,

That's what I think,too,unless it was an acute attack of rage that caused her death.The visit after xmas was either a plan to do away with her(b/f she had a chance to talk to other relatives that they would see on the trip the next day ..and maybe even Stewart,the med student?) or to attempt another molestation.It's just that I think it was a parent telling her this..and not PR.Although I don't rule her out as the killer.
UK,what do you think? JR would have more reason to do away with her,but PR seemed to be the most volitile one.(done out of jealousy, perhaps?)

 

[UKGuy]

Replying to your last question first, "did a sexual rage overtake her killer because JonBenet found the courage to say no?" This rage would have started at the party on the 23rd, I believe, when she was allegedly found crying on some back steps, and probably was making the interrupted 911 call. That was a way of saying no.

Probably it was after this that someone told her to expect another visit from Santa after Christmas, a secret, not to tell anyone. It was planned at least that long, I think, maybe longer if reports are true about hate propagandists in other parts of the country (Charlevoix, Waterford, Mi., maybe Seattle or Shreveport, depending on what that letter was about) destroying sympathy for the R's well in advance.

["The photographing of children in this manner is something pedophiles habitually undertake."] .......

Good point.

Couple of things about PR that your post brings to mind. (1) As a woman, I can't break my paint brushes, not even the smaller ones. (2) As a mother, I'm sure no mother would put size 12 panties on her six yr old.,,, Unless, of course, she knew that would throw suspicion on some man rather than her.

You see, to be fair and balanced, as O'Reilly says, I sometimes argue both sides, but never exclude either side as suspects. There were very odd things about several of the "friends". Something very strange going on.

Eagle1,

["The photographing of children in this manner is something pedophiles habitually undertake."] .......

Good point.

Another aspect to consider is what appears innocent photography, since its setting and theme is pageant led, can also be motivated by deviant pedophile motives. The photographer knowing full well that the photographs have a cover story of being about pageants.

Replying to your last question first, "did a sexual rage overtake her killer because JonBenet found the courage to say no?" This rage would have started at the party on the 23rd, I believe, when she was allegedly found crying on some back steps, and probably was making the interrupted 911 call. That was a way of saying no.

Possibly, something occurred then that has been hushed up, I wonder if any of the participants that were there were later recruited by the Ramsey's as a form of insurance?


Many people blame the BPD for being inept and inexperienced, its just as likely that there was a conspiracy, and that the lea bungling was allowed to happen. There are only two reasons for a conspiracy to have been developed 1. Political, 2. Criminal; and 2. seems to be a prime candidate here? There was a conspiracy after the event since all three Ramsey's colluded to either refuse to cooperate, synchronise their evidence, or maintain a silence!


.

 

[UKGuy]

From a businessman's standpoint,that may be why JR didn't want her there.Going to church and keeping a clean image can be imprt.Not that dressing her up like a 21 yo was any better,but it wasn't Vegas either.

JMO8778,

mmmm, or a cover story, that imputes some spurious kind of morality to JR, just as churchgoing, and having Christian fellow travelors such as Lou Smit, who accept donations, and all sing from the same hymn sheet.

A clean image a millionaire who funds his daughters pageant expenses from the age of 4, rather than sending her to a private school which will instruct her in whatever the relevant social graces are?

Why should anyone notice JonBenet in Vegas?

Pageants and Christianity are two smoke screens in the dysfunctional Ramsey family lifestyle.

If JR thought Vegas was wrong then morally so are all the others, and he should have told Patsy so, and paid for JonBenet to go to an acting school, a dancing school, whatever.


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

mmmm, or a cover story, that imputes some spurious kind of morality to JR, just as churchgoing, and having Christian fellow travelors such as Lou Smit, who accept donations, and all sing from the same hymn sheet.

good thought,I didn't think of that.Right on about LS.

A clean image a millionaire who funds his daughters pageant expenses from the age of 4, rather than sending her to a private school which will instruct her in whatever the relevant social graces are?

She did go to private school,if I recall right,although it wasn't instruction for social grace.
I'm not sure the public in general looks down on pageants for kids,as they're considered training for later ones when they're older,in which of course they have to have a clean image.What I have a problem with,as I guess others do too,is making them look much older,like JB did with all that makeup on.And the clothes that were way too sexual for her age.

Why should anyone notice JonBenet in Vegas?

True,I don't know how much circulation the pics would have gotten if she hadn't died.

Pageants and Christianity are two smoke screens in the dysfunctional Ramsey family lifestyle.

ITA ! I've always thought the church thing was just for business show in the community.And PR would have likely pushed JB into the pageant world,at all costs,and even if she didn't want to.

If JR thought Vegas was wrong then morally so are all the others, and he should have told Patsy so, and paid for JonBenet to go to an acting school, a dancing school, whatever.


.

It was a dance school she went to, wasn't it? Personally I think gymnastics/tumbling etc is more apppropriate for that age.

 

[UKGuy]

good thought,I didn't think of that.Right on about LS.

She did go to private school,if I recall right,although it wasn't instruction for social grace.
I'm not sure the public in general looks down on pageants for kids,as they're considered training for later ones when they're older,in which of course they have to have a clean image.What I have a problem with,as I guess others do too,is making them look much older,like JB did with all that makeup on.And the clothes that were way too sexual for her age.

True,I don't know how much circulation the pics would have gotten if she hadn't died.

ITA ! I've always thought the church thing was just for business show in the community.And PR would have likely pushed JB into the pageant world,at all costs,and even if she didn't want to.

It was a dance school she went to, wasn't it? Personally I think gymnastics/tumbling etc is more apppropriate for that age.

JMO8778,

I've always thought the church thing was just for business show in the community. And PR would have likely pushed JB into the pageant world,at all costs,and even if she didn't want to.

So you can also infer that The Pageant thing was just for public show, to conceal any domestic events from the community

What we dont know is to what extent JR encouraged JonBenet to practise and participate in pageants? e.g. was Shirley Temple, a favorite of the Grandfather, John or both?


.

 

[goddess]

Wow, that sounds like a blatant admission that he indeed found his child well before the 'official' time.

 

[coloradokares]

JMO8778,


So you can also infer that The Pageant thing was just for public show, to conceal any domestic events from the community

What we dont know is to what extent JR encouraged JonBenet to practise and participate in pageants? e.g. was Shirley Temple, a favorite of the Grandfather, John or both?


.

Well JonBenet kicked Patsy at a paegant. I am not sure what could be inferred from that. But JonBenet said to a family friend I don't feel pretty anymore. How devastating is that? I think Jonnie B did like the pageants at a point. But I think she also would have had to have had a lot of little girl in her that wanted to come out and be loved for who she was. Not made into. JMHO

 

[UKGuy]

Well JonBenet kicked Patsy at a paegant. I am not sure what could be inferred from that. But JonBenet said to a family friend I don't feel pretty anymore. How devastating is that? I think Jonnie B did like the pageants at a point. But I think she also would have had to have had a lot of little girl in her that wanted to come out and be loved for who she was. Not made into. JMHO

coloradokares,

I have no doubt that Jonbenet was probably a willing particpant in the pageants, attracted by the glamour, sequins, and adult encouragement.

But JonBenet said to a family friend I don't feel pretty anymore.

This if correct underlines just what JonBenet thought she was being motivated to achieve.

Not feeling pretty, soiling and wetting yourself, appear to be JonBenet rebelling?

But I think she also would have had to have had a lot of little girl in her that wanted to come out and be loved for who she was. Not made into. JMHO

Yes, and did she realize something was very dysfunctional in her family?

What was the deal in the Paugh/Ramsey financial affairs, I read somewhere Nedra's attitude was that the income was there to be spent. Was Patsy pressured to enrol JonBenet in pageants, did they all collude in dressing up JonBenet, and showing her the adult poses, was sexual abuse the unspoken agreement, the silent deal, which the pageants covered up?


.

 

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

I have no doubt that Jonbenet was probably a willing particpant in the pageants, attracted by the glamour, sequins, and adult encouragement.


This if correct underlines just what JonBenet thought she was being motivated to achieve.

Not feeling pretty, soiling and wetting yourself, appear to be JonBenet rebelling?


Yes, and did she realize something was very dysfunctional in her family?

What was the deal in the Paugh/Ramsey financial affairs, I read somewhere Nedra's attitude was that the income was there to be spent. Was Patsy pressured to enrol JonBenet in pageants, did they all collude in dressing up JonBenet, and showing her the adult poses, was sexual abuse the unspoken agreement, the silent deal, which the pageants covered up?


.

UK I am quite sure all of what you said in repsonse played a huge part. I doubt Patsy was pressured to enroll JonBenet in pageants. That was Patsy's thing. Nedra's too and a thing that seemed well rooted in the Paugh side of the family. But all the collusion in this with Nedra and Patsy and Aunt Pam ....oh probably so. The Vegas thing and Marilyn Monroe thing was supposedly Nedras brain trust. Was sexual abuse the unspoken agreement. How do you prove that? You can suspect it but till someone out and out goes before the jury and testifies that there was more than acute sexual abuse evident at the autopsy. You'll not get Dr. Buef to agree. However I think enough is known about the signs of sexual abuse that its hard to not see the signs. However, at this point how does one prove who was her abuser. After 10 years we are needing a miracle to have justice for JonBenet. I said yesterday on a forum that the Ramseys spent their fortune to keep themselves out of jail and create the impression of reasonable doubt, not to find JonBenet's murderer. JMO How do Public Relation firms find killers? Also their own hired investigators never really have come up with a thing....but to spin doubt about DNA ....Johns just spoke more on that on LKL.

 

[BBB167893]

I said yesterday on a forum that the Ramseys spent their fortune to keep themselves out of jail and create the impression of reasonable doubt, not to find JonBenet's murderer. JMO How do Public Relation firms find killers? Also their own hired investigators never really have come up with a thing....but to spin doubt about DNA ....Johns just spoke more on that on LKL.

How about the part in John's depo where he admits they never even read the reports from their own investigators?

 

[coloradokares]

How about the part in John's depo where he admits they never even read the reports from their own investigators?

No kidding.. but they hired the very best money could buy. Im impresssed.

 

[BBB167893]

No kidding.