I still have an open mind as to how this happened and who did it

Because that would be a form of acknowledgement, and if the objective was to completely distance oneself at all costs, then the latter scenario makes more sense IMO.

Acknowledgement of what? If this all started with the head blow, than they cry “accident.” Are you saying that they decided to sexually assault and asphyxiate her to death rather than acknowledge an “accident?” And, distance themselves from it by creating unnecessary self-incriminating evidence, and creating a situation that would direct suspicion inside the house?
...

AK
 
I’m saying that it makes no sense to fake a kidnapping if the motive is to explain the body in the house because a kidnapping does not explain, and worse, is made contradictory by the body in the house.

In RDI, the parents would have been trying to explain a dead body in the house; in IDI an intruder would not have been trying to explain anything. So, we can say that it makes no sense in RDI, but it COULD make sense in IDI. For examples see here: http://tinyurl.com/kv973we
...
AK

As you stated, if indeed IDI, then IDI would not be trying to explain anything; thus no need for an obviously fake ransom note.

However, since you're saying it could make sense in an IDI scenario, then you must admit that if RDI, then they were trying to make it look like IDI, thus it makes just as much sense in an RDI scenario as it does in any IDI scenario.

Sorry, I'm not trying to bust your chops, I'm just having a really hard time following IDI logic, and I'm really trying to follow it. You guys are saying that it must be IDI because the evidence leads you to believe it's IDI, but it can't be RDI trying to make it look like IDI because the evidence implicates the Ramsey's too much. Going in circles makes me dizzy.

EDIT to add: also, it's not an uncommon part of RDI theories to believe PR jumped the gun too early calling 911, creating the senseless scenario of an RN and a body in the home. If IDI, then because the intruder was not in the home when police arrived, then we have to accept the scene we were left with was the one the intruder decided to leave. If RDI and JR and PR had differing plans on how to handle the reporting and disposal of the body, then we have a very simple explanation why both the RN and body were found in the Ramsey home.
 
Though of course IDK, it seems from the condition of JB’s bedroom that there was something violent which occurred in her bedroom that night. Simply too much chaos, even for PR and her messy housekeeping. This is where Kolar believes the hook is, that one of the adult R’s carried her downstairs, to the area outside the WC, and it wasn’t a child who carried her. Technically, moving a child to the basement in order to stage the crime (without the child’s consent, since she was unconscious) is kidnapping – and there is no statute of limitations on that. Also, though the BPD did rule a homicide, the kidnapping came before the strangulation, so wondered if the FBI could still take over the case? Sadly probably not, but if the FBI could it would get it out of the whole fog of the Boulder influences. JMHO

The bedrooms always looked like that. According to the housekeeper, the family was extremely untidy and messy. There was no hamper in the house and only JR used the laundry chute. Clothes were dropped on the floor or left on furniture, kitchen counters were always messy. Nothing was ever put away. And on the day the crime photos were taken, Patsy was preparing for 2 separate trips (Charlevoix and a Disney Cruise) so there were even more clothes strewn about. Not an indication of violence in the bedroom. Even the pillow at the bottom of the bed has a reason to be there- Patsy pulled the pillow away to get JB's pajamas, which were kept under her pillow between laundering. The pink tops can be seen on the bed. The pink bottoms have not been accounted for as far as I know.
 
One of Lou Smit's biggest credentials is that he "solved" the Heather Church case. I find it interesting that the RST loves to bring that case up because Heather was murdered in her home by an intruder, yet the intruder removed her body from the house. Of course whenever Heather's case was brought up, they never go into detail about it....
 
As you stated, if indeed IDI, then IDI would not be trying to explain anything; thus no need for an obviously fake ransom note.

However, since you're saying it could make sense in an IDI scenario, then you must admit that if RDI, then they were trying to make it look like IDI, thus it makes just as much sense in an RDI scenario as it does in any IDI scenario.

Sorry, I'm not trying to bust your chops, I'm just having a really hard time following IDI logic, and I'm really trying to follow it. You guys are saying that it must be IDI because the evidence leads you to believe it's IDI, but it can't be RDI trying to make it look like IDI because the evidence implicates the Ramsey's too much. Going in circles makes me dizzy.

EDIT to add: also, it's not an uncommon part of RDI theories to believe PR jumped the gun too early calling 911, creating the senseless scenario of an RN and a body in the home. If IDI, then because the intruder was not in the home when police arrived, then we have to accept the scene we were left with was the one the intruder decided to leave. If RDI and JR and PR had differing plans on how to handle the reporting and disposal of the body, then we have a very simple explanation why both the RN and body were found in the Ramsey home.
I’m not sure what “IDI logic” is. For me, there’s good reasoning and there’s bad reasoning and I’m sometimes guilty of both. I try, I try, and I am never offended by someone “trying to bust my chops.” No worries...

I do see certain elements (the note, the wrist ligatures, the tape) as being (seemingly) obviously fake. So, while I accept that someone may have faked a kidnapping I also notice that they seem to have taken steps to “hide” their entry/exit. A Ramsey would want to, almost need to, make that entry/exit obvious but they did not. In fact, they did the opposite by telling the police that all the doors were locked. This contradicts the supposed original purpose (as does the body being in the house).

It also does not seem reasonable that the Ramseys would want to direct suspicion towards only those who might have a key as this is to direct the investigation towards themselves, as would anything that the Ramseys might say or do that directs suspicion inwards, towards themselves.

So, while I do see elements of an obviously (and I make of the “obviously”) fake kidnapping, I don’t see the evidence that the Ramseys were the one’s doing that faking, and some of the evidence actually seems to contradict that premise.

Can we say that an intruder would have no need to write an “obviously fake ransom note?” No. How could we? Would an intruder not bring a prepared ransom note; would he leave both note and body in the house? These are not objections or reasons to doubt an intruder was responsible for this crime; these are really only questions. Perhaps, only the intruder can answer them.
...

AK
 
AK, what I'm saying is an intruder doesn't need to explain why JonBenet isn't in her bed asleep when the rest of the family got up that morning. We know she was sexually assaulted. We also know she was murdered. Even if we assume IDI, we still don't know whether there was ever a plan to kidnap her or not. Nothing other than the ransom note indicates anyone tried to remove her from the house that night. I haven't talked to anyone who actually believes a "small foreign faction" broke into the Ramsey home and attempted to kidnap JonBenet because they didn't respect the United States government, as the note claims. Because of the ridiculous content of the ransom note, we can reasonably surmise the note is hokum. That is key, because, as we seem to agree about, no intruder would need to explain why JonBenet wasn't asleep in her bed when her family got up the morning of the 26th.

The only people who would need to provide an explanation for that is the Ramsey family. It doesn't matter that it's a poor explanation, it's an explanation nonetheless. The author of the ransom note had 'diarrhea of the pen', as it were- they couldn't stop explaining. That's why the note had to be so long, they had to explain who they were, why they did what they did and what they would do (or rather, had done) if and when there were any deviation from their explicit instructions.

Again, no intruder who may have broken into the home for any reason needs to explain anything. A real ransom note would go something like this: "We have your daughter. You will pay us $118,000 if you want to see her alive again. We'll call you with instructions to deliver the money. No cops or she dies."

The text of the Ramsey RN is all about explaining everything. No Intruder needs to provide any explanation; only John and Patsy Ramsey need to explain why JonBenet isn't alive and well and on her way to Michigan with the family on the 26th.
 
Acknowledgement of what? If this all started with the head blow, than they cry “accident.”

Are you saying that they decided to sexually assault and asphyxiate her to death rather than acknowledge an “accident?” And, distance themselves from it by creating unnecessary self-incriminating evidence, and creating a situation that would direct suspicion inside the house?
...

AK

Let me rephrase.

Someone who inflicts a deliberate blow to JBR's skull and lets her die before creating the illusion it was an accident is no better than someone who inflicts a deliberate blow to her skull and lets her die before creating the illusion it was a botched kidnapping.

Difference being, one is willing to go that extra mile in order to cast suspicion outside the home whereas the other, suspicion is limited to within the home. Given the objective in the perps mind is to minimise involvement then IMO they are more likely to entertain an option that least acknowledges the fact it occurred in the home where they are the only viable suspects.
 
I do see certain elements (the note, the wrist ligatures, the tape) as being (seemingly) obviously fake. So, while I accept that someone may have faked a kidnapping I also notice that they seem to have taken steps to “hide” their entry/exit. A Ramsey would want to, almost need to, make that entry/exit obvious but they did not. In fact, they did the opposite by telling the police that all the doors were locked. This contradicts the supposed original purpose (as does the body being in the house).

How actually someone's entry/exit was hidden?
Making the obvious point of entry was pretty difficult. They couldn't have broken any door or smash a window, as it makes a lot of noise. It would have been heard very well in the quiet neighborhood and sure someone would have called the LE. The Ramseys did not have enough of skills and knowledge required to open any lock without the key, so that was neither an option.


So, while I do see elements of an obviously (and I make of the “obviously”) fake kidnapping, I don’t see the evidence that the Ramseys were the one’s doing that faking, and some of the evidence actually seems to contradict that premise.

The question is why would an intruder fake anything. Fake ties, fake LOTR-sized ransom note, fake gag, all of it is time consummating and therefore risk increasing. And, from the point of view of an intruder, it is completely useless. It does not help him to commit the crime he planned in any way, it only makes all this business riskier and more dangerous. So why bother?

Can we say that an intruder would have no need to write an “obviously fake ransom note?” No. How could we? Would an intruder not bring a prepared ransom note; would he leave both note and body in the house? These are not objections or reasons to doubt an intruder was responsible for this crime; these are really only questions. Perhaps, only the intruder can answer them.


Oh, but these are objections. And reasons to doubt. Writing three pages long ransom note requires some level of comfort for writer. You don't sit and write if you feel that you're that close to being surprised by someone and caught red handed.

Being in the victim's house, with the victim's family sleeping in their beds upstairs and with said victim laying dead in the basement, does not give a comfort at all. Being in the victim's home, a home full of sleeping people is very risky and the perp would have to be totally insane, to spend there an amount of time required for writing a letter that long. Don't forget, that the ransom letter was not written in the first try, the author made few beginings before he started the right one. That says he (or she) felt extremely comfortable and at ease i the Ramseys house. I don't think any intruder could reach such levels of comfort in such circumstances.

So we are supposed to think, that the intruder spent at least a hour extra in the house, writing a letter that was completely and utterly useless, as the dead body of supposedly kidnapped JonBenet was there, in the basement, showing that there was no kidnaping and no need to pay a dime to the perp. Why would the intruder waste his time and increase the risk of being caught, writting a letter, carying about it's form as the try-outs suggest, and then render that meticously written note completely useless by not taking JB with him, dead or alive? Again, from the vievpoint of an intruder this has no sense at all.

But it has a lot of sense from the viewpoint of the Ramseys as the perps. The letter is supposed to be that huge arrow that points away from them. "Our child might lying dead in our basement, but we did not do that! It was a foreign faction! An intruder! Not us!"
 
<SNIP>

I do see certain elements (the note, the wrist ligatures, the tape) as being (seemingly) obviously fake. So, while I accept that someone may have faked a kidnapping I also notice that they seem to have taken steps to “hide” their entry/exit. A Ramsey would want to, almost need to, make that entry/exit obvious but they did not. In fact, they did the opposite by telling the police that all the doors were locked. This contradicts the supposed original purpose (as does the body being in the house).

AK

Just on this point, lets say they faked the kidnapping and then claim all the doors were locked. Not far from where the victim was found, is a broken window with a suitcase underneath it. In terms of entry/exit would it be fair to conclude their actions helped make that obvious? Im just not sure a door (where people had keys) would have had the same dramatic impact which seems to be a recurrent feature in this case unfortunately. Take the ransom note for example.
 
Just on this point, lets say they faked the kidnapping and then claim all the doors were locked. Not far from where the victim was found, is a broken window with a suitcase underneath it. In terms of entry/exit would it be fair to conclude their actions helped make that obvious? Im just not sure a door (where people had keys) would have had the same dramatic impact which seems to be a recurrent feature in this case unfortunately. Take the ransom note for example.

I am not sure whether many people have looked closely at the photos of that broken window. For one..the hole in the glass itself is much too small for a person to fit through. And it is not in a place where it might be easy to reach the latch, and struggling to do so would have likely resulted in a cut with possible bleeding- NO blood was found in or near that window.
The other FACT that seems to be dismissed by the RST is that JR himself admitted that HE broke that window himself months before. There was some uncertainty as to whether the glass was ever cleaned up. Add this to the FACT that FW admitted HE was the one who put the suitcase under the window and you can see why I believe the broken window played no part in the crime. Yet, idiots like Lou Smit saw that and stuck to that theory like white on rice. He jumped on the "intruder got in through the broken window" bandwagon, and then all of a sudden, JR "forgets" he said he broke the window and jumps on too. So now you end up with a donkey cart of idiots all claiming someone got in through that window - without breaking that spider web, to boot!
 
DeeDee, remember, eventually even Lou Smit admitted there was no way an intruder came in through that window. At first, he tried every way possible to make the case for that, but eventually, he agreed it simply wasn't the case.
 
DeeDee, remember, eventually even Lou Smit admitted there was no way an intruder came in through that window. At first, he tried every way possible to make the case for that, but eventually, he agreed it simply wasn't the case.

I believe Lou Smit was a good man trying to do the right thing but he simply could not believe the Ramsey's would have murdered their own daughter so he ruled it out. The Ramsey's successfully conned this seasoned police investigator, sadly, because of their over-the-top staging and their willingness to lie so brazingly.
 
AK, what I'm saying is an intruder doesn't need to explain why JonBenet isn't in her bed asleep when the rest of the family got up that morning. We know she was sexually assaulted. We also know she was murdered. Even if we assume IDI, we still don't know whether there was ever a plan to kidnap her or not. Nothing other than the ransom note indicates anyone tried to remove her from the house that night. I haven't talked to anyone who actually believes a "small foreign faction" broke into the Ramsey home and attempted to kidnap JonBenet because they didn't respect the United States government, as the note claims. Because of the ridiculous content of the ransom note, we can reasonably surmise the note is hokum. That is key, because, as we seem to agree about, no intruder would need to explain why JonBenet wasn't asleep in her bed when her family got up the morning of the 26th.

The only people who would need to provide an explanation for that is the Ramsey family. It doesn't matter that it's a poor explanation, it's an explanation nonetheless. The author of the ransom note had 'diarrhea of the pen', as it were- they couldn't stop explaining. That's why the note had to be so long, they had to explain who they were, why they did what they did and what they would do (or rather, had done) if and when there were any deviation from their explicit instructions.

Again, no intruder who may have broken into the home for any reason needs to explain anything. A real ransom note would go something like this: "We have your daughter. You will pay us $118,000 if you want to see her alive again. We'll call you with instructions to deliver the money. No cops or she dies."

The text of the Ramsey RN is all about explaining everything. No Intruder needs to provide any explanation; only John and Patsy Ramsey need to explain why JonBenet isn't alive and well and on her way to Michigan with the family on the 26th.
The Ramseys (if RDI) needed to explain a dead body in the house and a ransom note does not explain that, it contradicts it. But, we can leave that for now and instead talk about why an intruder could have written the note...

I must confess that I’m not really sure if I’m understanding the objection. Are you saying that because you cannot think of a reason why an intruder would want to write the ransom note, therefore an intruder would not have write the ransom note?

IDI posters on IDI forums all through these years have dedicated a significant amount of time trying to explain or understand why an intruder would write this note; theories abound. No one has the answer, but speculation is endless....
..
.
AK
 
How actually someone's entry/exit was hidden?
Making the obvious point of entry was pretty difficult. They couldn't have broken any door or smash a window, as it makes a lot of noise. It would have been heard very well in the quiet neighborhood and sure someone would have called the LE. The Ramseys did not have enough of skills and knowledge required to open any lock without the key, so that was neither an option.




The question is why would an intruder fake anything. Fake ties, fake LOTR-sized ransom note, fake gag, all of it is time consummating and therefore risk increasing. And, from the point of view of an intruder, it is completely useless. It does not help him to commit the crime he planned in any way, it only makes all this business riskier and more dangerous. So why bother?




Oh, but these are objections. And reasons to doubt. Writing three pages long ransom note requires some level of comfort for writer. You don't sit and write if you feel that you're that close to being surprised by someone and caught red handed.

Being in the victim's house, with the victim's family sleeping in their beds upstairs and with said victim laying dead in the basement, does not give a comfort at all. Being in the victim's home, a home full of sleeping people is very risky and the perp would have to be totally insane, to spend there an amount of time required for writing a letter that long. Don't forget, that the ransom letter was not written in the first try, the author made few beginings before he started the right one. That says he (or she) felt extremely comfortable and at ease i the Ramseys house. I don't think any intruder could reach such levels of comfort in such circumstances.

So we are supposed to think, that the intruder spent at least a hour extra in the house, writing a letter that was completely and utterly useless, as the dead body of supposedly kidnapped JonBenet was there, in the basement, showing that there was no kidnaping and no need to pay a dime to the perp. Why would the intruder waste his time and increase the risk of being caught, writting a letter, carying about it's form as the try-outs suggest, and then render that meticously written note completely useless by not taking JB with him, dead or alive? Again, from the vievpoint of an intruder this has no sense at all.

But it has a lot of sense from the viewpoint of the Ramseys as the perps. The letter is supposed to be that huge arrow that points away from them. "Our child might lying dead in our basement, but we did not do that! It was a foreign faction! An intruder! Not us!"
On entry/exit: all the Ramseys had to do was tell the police that the doors were not locked.

On ransom note: some people think the intruder entered the home while the Ramseys were at the Whites and that he spent hours alone in the house and that he spent some of that time writing the note. I’m not really sure that that happened. I tend to think “in and out,” but I really don’t know; who does?

Another idea out there is that the killer had been in the house on a previous occasion (legitimately or otherwise) and that he confiscated the notepad at that time, wrote the note elsewhere and brought the whole works back to the house with him on crime night; or there’s the possibility that he prepared the note in advance on his own paper and simply copied it to the Ramsey notepad once he was in the house. Or, some think this was just the sort of fellow who got off on the risk, who enjoyed taking his time to sit there and write while everyone lay sleeping above him; etc...

On pointing away: the ransom note might have pointed away from the Ramseys if the body had been disposed of, or if it hadn’t been written in their notepad, or with their pen, or if it wasn’t so long, etc...
The body in the house makes the ransom note a lie.
...

AK
 
Just on this point, lets say they faked the kidnapping and then claim all the doors were locked. Not far from where the victim was found, is a broken window with a suitcase underneath it. In terms of entry/exit would it be fair to conclude their actions helped make that obvious? Im just not sure a door (where people had keys) would have had the same dramatic impact which seems to be a recurrent feature in this case unfortunately. Take the ransom note for example.

Nothing could be as obvious or simple and easy as saying that there was an unlocked door.

No, I don’t think it would it be fair to conclude that their actions helped make the broken window/suitcase obvious.
...

AK
 
I am not sure whether many people have looked closely at the photos of that broken window. For one..the hole in the glass itself is much too small for a person to fit through. And it is not in a place where it might be easy to reach the latch, and struggling to do so would have likely resulted in a cut with possible bleeding- NO blood was found in or near that window.
The other FACT that seems to be dismissed by the RST is that JR himself admitted that HE broke that window himself months before. There was some uncertainty as to whether the glass was ever cleaned up. Add this to the FACT that FW admitted HE was the one who put the suitcase under the window and you can see why I believe the broken window played no part in the crime. Yet, idiots like Lou Smit saw that and stuck to that theory like white on rice. He jumped on the "intruder got in through the broken window" bandwagon, and then all of a sudden, JR "forgets" he said he broke the window and jumps on too. So now you end up with a donkey cart of idiots all claiming someone got in through that window - without breaking that spider web, to boot!
First, I want to be clear that I have never been a supporter of the window-entry theory. I am IDI, but I have no idea how or where an intruder would have entered/exited; however...

If you are outside the house and you raise the grate and then sit on the edge of the window well so that your bum is on the ground and your feet are dangling down, and then you kick towards the window you likely break it just where we see it broken.

This hole is not ideally located, but it does seem to be of sufficient size for someone to reach through and unlatch the window. To me, the hole looks large enough to reach through without being cut.

Do you mean IDI when you write RST? Because I’ve never known any IDI to dismiss the fact that Mr Ramsey admitted to breaking the window on an earlier occasion. Nor do I recall seeing where Mr Ramsey forgot that he broke the window.

Those IDI who believe that an intruder came through the window all accept that the window had been previously broken. Some think that the intruder looked around the home for an entry point and used this basement window because it already had a hole in it.
...

AK
 
DeeDee, remember, eventually even Lou Smit admitted there was no way an intruder came in through that window. At first, he tried every way possible to make the case for that, but eventually, he agreed it simply wasn't the case.

I’ve never seen this. Where/when did this happen? Are you certain?
...

AK
 
I’ve never seen this. Where/when did this happen? Are you certain?
...

AK

yeah, here's the link:

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-evidence.htm

about 2/3 of the way down the page, under the title 04/18/2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation" you'll find this excerpt:

Page 195:

"As the press watched and cameras clicked, we tested it for possible entry. Wickman wiggled through head first on his stomach and had to use his hands to grab overhead pipes and lever himself in. Smit managed to slither in on his back. Both dragged significant amounts of debris in with them, and no such debris was found during the original search. The techs had found no unknown prints when they dusted the pipes that Wickman grasped to make his entry. Even Lou Smit eventually admitted that the small window wasn't a possible point of entry for an intruder.

BBM
 
The Ramseys (if RDI) needed to explain a dead body in the house and a ransom note does not explain that, it contradicts it. But, we can leave that for now and instead talk about why an intruder could have written the note...

As I stated, it's an explanation. A poor explanation, but an explanation nonetheless. The Ramseys were the people with the dead body in their house. They were the only ones who needed an explanation for why it is there. It doesn't matter that it's not a good explanation. The last thing any intruder/murderer would want to do is admit they were at the scene of the crime, which is essentially the only purpose the ransom note serves in this case.

I must confess that I&#8217;m not really sure if I&#8217;m understanding the objection. Are you saying that because you cannot think of a reason why an intruder would want to write the ransom note, therefore an intruder would not have write the ransom note?

IDI posters on IDI forums all through these years have dedicated a significant amount of time trying to explain or understand why an intruder would write this note; theories abound. No one has the answer, but speculation is endless....
..
.
AK

I've read many IDI theorists reasons for the note. What I'm saying is that none of them make any sense. Not one of them explain why an intruder would leave a ransom note and a body they never attempted to remove from the home. Other than the note, there's no evidence that anyone ever attempted to kidnap JonBenet. Other than the note, there's no evidence that anyone other than the Ramsey family was ever in the home that night.

The note does nothing that can possibly benefit an intruder. The sole purpose for the note is to explain that someone else was in the home and that person is responsible for her murder, and by extension, the other crimes that were committed . If an actual intruder came into the home, molested and killed JonBenet, I'm fairly certain they wouldn't want to announce that they done it. They didn't wake anyone up. They weren't caught going into or out of the home. No evidence was left that has identified them. If not for the note, there's no reason for anyone to believe anyone other than John, Patsy, Burke and JonBenet Ramsey was ever in the home that night. A prowler who was so careful to leave no other evidence of being inside the home wouldn't make such a major slip-up as writing, much less leaving, such a note. The idea that it was written and left inside the home by an intruder is preposterous.

The note does everything to benefit the Ramsey family. It was their house the dead body was inside. It was their house that contains no other evidence that anyone else was there. Without the note, Jon and Patsy Ramsey would both have been arrested immediately upon JonBenet's body being discovered, whenever it came to be discovered.

No call came from a kidnapper. She wasn't actually kidnapped. To get to the basement from her bedroom, she passed by doors that exited the house. It's blatantly obvious there was never a kidnapper.
 
yeah, here's the link:

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-evidence.htm

about 2/3 of the way down the page, under the title 04/18/2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation" you'll find this excerpt:

Page 195:

"As the press watched and cameras clicked, we tested it for possible entry. Wickman wiggled through head first on his stomach and had to use his hands to grab overhead pipes and lever himself in. Smit managed to slither in on his back. Both dragged significant amounts of debris in with them, and no such debris was found during the original search. The techs had found no unknown prints when they dusted the pipes that Wickman grasped to make his entry. Even Lou Smit eventually admitted that the small window wasn't a possible point of entry for an intruder.

BBM
And yet, Smit still continued to promote this idea -- even going so far as to try and demonstrate it on 48 Hours. Never mind that he actually demonstrated that no one could go through the window without cleaning nearly every corner of the window. Never mind that he had to have the suitcase turned at a right angle and against the wall to keep from knocking it over when he put his weight on it.


smitatwindow131.jpg
2m32p3t.jpg
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
212
Guests online
553
Total visitors
765

Forum statistics

Threads
627,117
Messages
18,539,015
Members
241,193
Latest member
karmic14U
Back
Top