I support the Intruder theory, HOWEVER a question

[Maxi]

John Douglas was briefed by the Ramteam shortly after the murders, and he listed the $118,000 as suspiciously close to JR's bonus. Douglas also listed the SBTC as evidence that the perp may have known about JR's military service at Subic Bay. Someone on the Ramteam had to make that connection, too.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Ivy, it could be either/or.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Maxi, from an article in the Daily Camera we know that Douglas had been hired sometime before Jan 15, 1997, and had also already met with BPD by then to share "insight" into the case.

Douglas may very well have gleaned the bonus amount from his meetings with John and Patsy, then shared that with BPD on their behalf rather than John telling the BPD directly:

Korten also said the Ramseys' attorneys already have shared information with investigators. "The (police) detectives are conducting their own investigation, and that's the way it should be," Korten said. "But when we have information that would be valuable for their work, we share it with them."
Boulder detectives have interviewed Douglas, police said in a statement. He offered "an opportunity to provide insight on the case."
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/01/15-2.html

 

[Imon128]

From reading one of John Douglas' books with a chapter on the case, I don't think he had talked to BPD prior to meeting with Haddon's firm. Can you give us more on this?

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Imon, I was trying to show that Douglas talked first with the Ramseys, then with the BPD to share his "insights". Since the article appeared Jan 15, Douglas had to have done both already by that date.

I don't know when or if Haddon shared any case information with Douglas. It's been a long time since I read Douglas' chapter about the Ramsey case, and apart from his believing them innocent and citing pretty much the same points as Smit as cited as indicators of an intruder, I don't remember what he said about Haddon.

 

[Imon128]

LP, from JD's book "The Cases That Haunt Us" (I don't endorse this book at all, BTW), hardback, page 291:


"...When I called my voice mail, I had a message from a private investigator named H. Ellis Armistead from Denver, who said he had been hired by the Ramsey family. He wanted to know if I was available to provide assistance regarding the homicide of their daughter..."

The next day Armistead got in touch with me at the Provo Park Hotel where I was staying. He said my expenses and a consultation fee would be paid, though the rate was not discussed. He indicated that attorney Lee Foreman, a partner of Hal Haddon and Bryan Morgan's, the attorneys for John Ramsey, would be contacting me."

"...Foreman called around 9:00 that night and said he would like me to come to Denver and Boulder and conduct an analysis for them.

...Foreman agreed to the terms. "

 

[Ivy]

After Douglas publicly stated that he believed the Ramseys were innocent, he finally admitted that all the information for his "private" investigation came from the Ramsey team. Douglas then went further and admitted that although he didn't believe John Ramsey was guilty, he couldn't vouch for Patsy.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Conduct an analysis is what I thought he did. I still don't know if Haddon shared case information with Douglas.

Douglas interviewed the Ramseys and I thought he based his conclusions on those interviews.

Is there something to indicate I misunderstood?

 

[Imon128]

No, he didn't conduct an analysis, he did a profile and then in his book, after he was called out on it, he suddenly termed it 'analysis', IMO.

Yes, he got info from Haddon and Company. Foreman was from Haddon's law firm, as I posted above. There's more in the book, if you want to check it out, I don't feel like typing it all out, LOL. He wasn't connected with BPD.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Here's what the Longmont Times reported on the Douglas interview with Dateline News:

In a ``Dateline NBC'' interview, John Douglas said he spent about four or five hours with John and Patricia Ramsey and visited their home in Boulder.

He also saw a limited amount of evidence, a photocopy of a purported ransom note and he was briefed on the autopsy report, the broadcast said.

``What I've seen and experienced, I'd say they were not involved,'' said Douglas. His interview was set for broadcast Tuesday night and NBC released a transcript in advance.

Douglas said he suspected JonBenet's parents at first. When someone is killed in a home, ``the primary suspects will always and should be family.''

His investigation convinced him otherwise, Douglas told NBC.

JoBenet's body was found by her father and Douglas noted, ``Generally, if a parent kills a child, they don't want to be the one who finds the child.''

He said they also ``usually place their child with a very peaceful type of look to it. They stage the crime scene.''

Douglas considers the ransom figure -- $118,000 -- significant. That was the amount Ramsey received as a bonus in 1996 from his computer company.

``Is that just a fluke? I don't think so,'' said Douglas. ``I think it is very, very significant. And you cannot ignore that.''

NBC said Boulder Police spokesman Kelvin McNeill confirmed receiving information from Douglas, but haven't said if it influenced their probe.

Leslie Aaholm, spokeswoman for the city, said no charges have been filed and no arrests are pending.

It was obvious from that interview, and from another online interview, that Douglas concluded that neither parent were involved in JonBenét's murder. I believe his chapter on the Ramsey case also confirms that he does not believe either John or Patsy were involved.

 

[Imon128]

Well, that's okay, but I just gave info from the horse's (John Douglas) mouth, in his book "The Cases That Haunt Us". I really don't have much respect for that book, as Douglas makes errors in it. However, one has to assume he knew how he was hired and who he talked to, initailly, to get involved in the case.

 

[Ivy]

Yes, Douglas conferred with Haddon attorneys.

Ramsey's attorney, Bryon Morgan [one of Haddon's law partners] "went ballistic" when he heard former FBI profiler John Douglas talk about details of his work for the Ramsey family's legal team, particularly interviews he granted to "Dateline NBC" and a talk show on CNN.

http://63.147.65.175/news/jon14.htm

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Imon, I don't question who hired him or who he talked to but how he made his conclusion about the Ramseys. Ramsey lawyers hired him--I thought I posted that already. He talked to both parents and concluded that neither killed JonBenét. In fact, he concluded that an intruder killed JonBenét.

I think he did a consultation, resulting in both an analysis and a profile. I didn't think he worked for the BPD at all, but offered his take on the case TO them.

While we're on the subject of Douglas, some people might not realize that he was called to testify at the grand jury investigating JonBenét's murder. Brennan's coverage is at:

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0720rams1.shtml

 

[Imon128]

Sorry if I misunderstood you, LP.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Ivy, I think we are all saying the same thing about the lawyers hiring Douglas.

You are wrong, though, about Douglas not "vouching" for Patsy. Douglas believes an intruder killed JonBenét.

 

[Ivy]

Douglas lost credibility with the public and was criticized by other profilers for going to work for the Ramsey team. He was PAID by the Ramseys. Of course he'd declare them innocent! What a joke! Only after public ridicule did he admit he hadn't actually interviewed Patsy, and that, well, he really didn't know if she was innocent.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Imon, I also apologize if I misunderstood you.

For what it's worth, I am underwhelmed by professional "profilers". I think they've been some help in some cases, but miserable failures in others.

In this particular case, I agree with JD on who killed JonBenét, but profilers don't float my boat.

 

[Imon128]

Also, Douglas didn't have BPD/LE info to be able to come up with a profile. I believe it was Greg McCreary (sp?) who turned down that kind of job due to lack of critical info and questioned Douglas for doing so. Douglas maybe should have stayed in Utah and told Armistead that he was too busy.....

 

[Imon128]

Imon, I also apologize if I misunderstood you.

For what it's worth, I am underwhelmed by professional "profilers". I think they've been some help in some cases, but miserable failures in others.

In this particular case, I agree with JD on who killed JonBenét, but profilers don't float my boat.

LP...NP, LOL. How's that for lack of words, teehee.

 

[Toltec]

I remember John Douglas talking about the murderer's post-behavior. He talks about the murderer finding religion...then he goes on to say that Patsy walks in wearing a large cross around her neck...TEE HEE!

John wants to know why JonBenet died so that they could "understand why it happened" and get on with their lives.

UNDERSTAND????