IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #11

[GrainneDhu]

I know that sex crimes, especially those in which children are the victims, are often "resolved" by allowing the perp to plead down to a lesser charge...something like indecent exposure or possibly public urination. This is a travesty of justice, but it happens a lot. A DA is going to look at a case of a pervert exposing himself or masturbating in public, or even if he observed getting naked with a child and think " how can I prove this and get a conviction?". If the perp claims he was simply urinating, even if this is a ridiculous excuse, a DA might chose to accept that plea instead of risking a jury not believing a victim or witness.

I would never trust a thing an RSO says. Someone who did plea down to public urination is always going to claim that's all he did to get on the list.

I say anyone who pulls it out in public for any reason isn't to be trusted. Let the men find a bathroom, just like the women do...they can wait!

MOO

The problem is that in Iowa, there was no "public urination" charge. So LE charged it as "lewd and lascivious" conduct. Back before gay civil rights were established, any conduct between two men that a given police officer felt uncomfortable with was also charged as "lewd and lascivious" conduct. Even for something as innocuous as sitting in a bar that tolerated gay patrons and staring into another man's eyes (no, I'm not exaggerating).

And yes, I'm sure that some of the men charged with "lewd and lascivious" were plea bargaining down or actually guilty of some action that an ordinary person would describe as lewd and lascivious.

Now, I grew up in Iowa City, which has a major university. Approximately 20K students from 18-22 years old. Back when I came of age, the drinking age was 18, so that meant there were lots and lots and lots of students who were living away from home for the first time and legally able to drink!

Believe me, Friday and Saturday nights were not a pretty sight.

To this day, about one third of the businesses in downtown Iowa City are bars (or restaurants that serve alcohol). Since each establishment has a maximum number of customers allowed inside, many of the downtown bars that are close to the university had cover fees.

That contributed to the public urination problem. Students would drink a lot of beer in one bar, decide to go somewhere else and then get caught short when they couldn't get into a bar due to the need to wait for someone in that bar to leave.

My own brother came thisclose to being charged with "lewd and lascivious" for public urination in an alley on a Saturday night. He just happened to finish first but his two buddies weren't as quick and they were both charged.

I am absolutely certain that all they were doing was peeing in the alley. Those two grew up with my brother and I've known them for most of their lives. They were not committing a sex offence. If they'd been charged with "criminal stupidity" I would have no quarrel with the law.

This was years before the registered sex offender list was created. Back then, it was easier and cheaper just to plead guilty and get slapped with the $20 fine.

Then the registered sex offender list was created. And all those men who had convictions for "lewd and lascivious" conduct were suddenly hit with a new penalty, in some cases up to 50 years after the original conviction.

So, due to where I grew up and what I know from living in the state, I do regard the Iowa sex offender registry as a SNAFU.

And public urination just doesn't fit as a sex offence to me. Drunk kids out on a Friday night with little or no access to bathrooms shouldn't be charged as sex offenders.

 

[CN2Souls]

How can an alarm system be overridden? I am asking because I am very dependent on my alarm and my dogs. Also what kind of laws would be better. Are you talking about longer sentences? making sure perps don't walk. I agree with that totally. jmo

If the Alarm system is dependent on the phone lines, Cut the phone lines and you have no more system, also pull the main master fuse and you have no system.

Also, most Criminals know it take on average 15 min for LE to respond that is a long time....in the criminal world.


Yes, Longer sentences and keep "Predator Type" IE. the one who prey on children in forever

or "Chip" them.

'Chip" embedded Electric Computer chip under in the scull cavity.
Then they can be tracked at all times.

 

[Sailorsgirl]

How can an alarm system be overridden? I am asking because I am very dependent on my alarm and my dogs. Also what kind of laws would be better. Are you talking about longer sentences? making sure perps don't walk. I agree with that totally. jmo

It's possible, but not that easy. It would take knowledge of security systems, etc. My husband was trained in security systems in the Navy. If you want me to ask him, I will.

 

[mck16]

If the Alarm system is dependent on the phone lines, Cut the phone lines and you have no more system, also pull the main master fuse and you have no system.


Yes, Longer sentences and keep "Predator Type" IE. the one who prey on children in forever

or "Chip" them.

'Chip" embedded Electric Computer chip under in the scull cavity.
Then they can be tracked at all times.

Okay, thanks. My system is wireless. ty

 

[tlcya]

<tries to tug the thread back on topic before mod intervention>

Authorities in Cedar Rapids and Evansdale are still looking for information about the reported abduction attempt in Cedar Rapids.

Chief Deputy Rick Abben of the Black Hawk County Sheriff&#8217;s Department and a spokesperson in Evansdale case, said officials do not know whether the two incidents are related but cannot rule it out.

http://www.indystar.com/article/D2/...-girls-checked-out-dismissed?odyssey=nav|head

 

[BethInAK]

I personally know a man who is in his forties who is on the sex offender registry for having sex with a teen when he was 19. I get why this was illegal and I get why he was punished. I don't think though, that he is any danger to anyone at this time. The registry is supposed to keep people safe, not be a "punishment". Only predator type crimes should be included.

 

[BunnyHop]

You all can sleuth all the white vans you want. I see white vans every morning.

Most are work vehicles. 3/4 this morning.

 

[Thinkzerz]

Lets have faith and support these officers that ARE going to find out what happen to Elizabeth and Lryic! I know as time goes by we can lose faith but LE seem to be still hot on this case!:woohoo::bananalama::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo: :woohoo::woohoo:

 

[dotr]

I agree with you and I would like to know what cases WSers have helped to solve or ID'd. I have wondered this in the past. tia

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/armchair_detectives_true-crime.html

In the crimeblog universe of truTV's Crime Library, Websleuths, Blink on Crime and The Hinky Meter, mystery buffs spoke the conventional wisdom first about TH, as commenters have shorthanded Kyron's stepmother's name, long before sheriff's deputies or the family began raising accusatory eyebrows at Terri Horman. On Facebook, a few dozen supporters of the woman Kyron Horman called "Mom," point fingers elsewhere.

But denizens of the crime sites have their opinions -- and they're doing the virtual legwork to try to prove they're right. Meet "Kimster," a 51-year-old Eugene-area empty nester with a penchant for Ann Rule's psychological true-crime thrillers. Or "ValHall," a 46-year-old aerospace engineer and grandmother from Oklahoma who got snared by the criminal justice bug during the O.J. Simpson trial. Or Tricia Griffith, a 51-year-old former rock radio DJ turned unsolved-mystery website owner, eking out a living for herself, her 13-year-old son and a menagerie of birds and dogs in Utah.

Griffith is a hobbyist whose Websleuths site has logged more than 5 million posts since she bought it in 2004. Her crimeblog doesn't tolerate blatant name-calling and nitpicking. But if you have a theory of who did what to whom in the Kyron Horman case, your chatter is welcome, she said. For her part, Griffith is unabashedly suspicious of Terri Horman.

"The stepmother knows more, and her whole story doesn't make sense," Griffith said.

Court of public opinion

Trying to make sense of the morass is nothing new for veterans of unresolved mysteries, including the 1997 death of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey in Colorado, the 2008 disappearance and murder of Caylee Marie Anthony or the 2009 disappearance of 5-year-old Haleigh Cummings, both in Florida.

The brigade of crimebloggers who continue to mine the public record in those cases shifted their energies to Skyline, just north of Portland within hours of Kyron's disappearance.

"We act as a giant spitballing session," Griffith said. "Then what we can do is write what you, the journalist, are thinking but can't write, and what the members of the public are thinking."

Sometimes the unorthodox sleuthing yields results. Last year, Abraham Shakespeare, a homeless man whose $31 million lotto win in 2006 turned his life upside down, vanished along with a chunk of his lump-sum $17 million payout. When police named Shakespeare's friend Dorice Donegan Moore as the last person to have seen him, Websleuths members began to slog through public bankruptcy records and monitor online scanners. Others searched property records and posted photographs of two properties. Volunteer sleuths determined that Moore had purchased two houses, side-by-side, placing the home that turned out to be the crime scene in her boyfriend’s name.

Moore reportedly logged on to the Websleuths forum to mouth off anonymously. Griffith checked the IP address against an e-mail Moore had sent and confirmed that it was the prime suspect. "We were talking about her. And she came on to defend herself," Griffith said"

 

[mck16]

It's possible, but that easy. It would take knowledge of security systems, etc. My husband was trained in security systems in the Navy. If you want me to ask him, I will.

I guess with knowledge you can get around anything. Not sure the perp/pediphile would have that knowledge. It is my opinion you can never be too careful. Most of the cases we have here on WS, the house did not have an alarm activated if any at all. And I know they had dogs, but were they dogs trained in protection or known to bark if a stranger came into the house. I love all dogs, but there are some that just are not guard dogs whether the perp knows the dog or not. e.g. family member, relative, etc. I guess all that justifies me having a gun. jmo

 

[dotr]

Had trouble copying and pasting, long article -sorry for not breaking it down properly..

 

[TGIRecovered]

Am I missing something, or has the family become very quiet in the past few days?

I suspect that they are all beginning to come out of the initial fog of shock. There are stages of grief, and whether they suspect a stranger, friend, or fellow family member, there will eventually be feelings of self-blame, depression, and hopelessness. I feel for them. No one deserves this kind of horror.

MOO

 

[CN2Souls]

I personally know a man who is in his forties who is on the sex offender registry for having sex with a teen when he was 19. I get why this was illegal and I get why he was punished. I don't think though, that he is any danger to anyone at this time. The registry is supposed to keep people safe, not be a "punishment". Only predator type crimes should be included.

Boy do I agree with That!!!! They put 18 year old Kids in for have "relations" with a 17 year old and keep him in for years

but then they let a Career RSO plead down to a indecent exposure, when he in "M***** in the Park while watching Kids, and only get 10 months.

We need to Change the laws...

 

[whittymom4]

OT but only slightly. There is a thread devoted to the debate over whether the danger is greater to our children now or is it the same as in the past but we are simply much more aware of incidents of harm to children now that we are all plugged into the web.

I tend to feel like no one place is safe and never has been. There are areas where crime is more prevalent and others where it is more sparce, but nowhere is truly safe and we are fools if we think otherwise.

The Internet just brings all the trash and weirdo's into our living rooms. But, it also helps inform and educate us. For instance, I Use the Internet to find recipes and sometimes do some shopping. I know there are lot's of pornographic material and gambling, BUT I didn't know about the postings on Craigslist, I was shocked to see that list. Men meeting men. Men meeting woman, even the married people looking for a one time thing! Then the posting's by the creepy camper made me sick, along with many of the other posts. There was one I reported, couple looking for "girl" to live in and teach. WTF??

 

[GrainneDhu]

First off, I'm not picking one you, I've seen lots of posts like this.

How do you let your children play outside if you are so consumed with fear that you paint your house white and don't have colored curtains for your children? Why do you let your fear control every aspect of your life? There are other ways to protect your children than trying to hide their existence. I can't imagine raising my children in such fear.

Wouldn't it be easier to buy an alarm system, take precautions to avoid being an easy target? If you are in a dangerous area, move?

We have a bunch of toys out front of our house. The kids rooms are painted pink and blue with beautiful curtains to match. But we are extremely vigilant in how we live. We knew before we started house shopping that we did not want a house with kids rooms on the main level, we knew we did not want kids rooms that would be first point of contact. We refuse to live somewhere that our kids can't play outside and be kids.

The thank you button was not enough.

As has been demonstrated many, many times, including by examples in these threads, it's nearly impossible to teach kids under about 12 years old a workable definition of a stranger.

It requires a lot of knowledge of all kinds of details about the world and how it works. More knowledge and more judgment than young children have learned or can make a useful judgment from.

Plus, I have to wonder if it is even appropriate to give a young child that kind of responsibility. How does a six year old know who is a stranger? If you go with the definition "a stranger is not someone your parent introduced you to" then what happens when the kid walks into the classroom and sees a substitute teacher? Is that substitute teacher a stranger (after all, the parent didn't introduce the sub to the kid...).

That might sound unlikely but it's an example from real life. That's how children think.

Off topic: in Victorian times, pink was considered the appropriate colour for boys because of it's bold and forthright nature. Blue was considered appropriate for girls because of it's more subdued and retiring nature.

 

[Thinkzerz]

You all can sleuth all the white vans you want. I see white vans every morning.

Most are work vehicles. 3/4 this morning.

I understand you own a white van for your business. But it is what it is and LE are looking at white vans. I don't understand why people with white vans are feeling the need to defend themselves. All but one white van is innocent. If people with White Vans don't understand that it is what it is then they need to get business locals. JMO Not attacking you.

 

[tlcya]

The Internet just brings all the trash and weirdo's into our living rooms. But, it also helps inform and educate us. For instance, I Use the Internet to find recipes and sometimes do some shopping. I know there are lot's of pornographic material and gambling, BUT I didn't know about the postings on Craigslist, I was shocked to see that list. Men meeting men. Men meeting woman, even the married people looking for a one time thing! Then the posting's by the creepy camper made me sick, along with many of the other posts. There was one I reported, couple looking for "girl" to live in and teach. WTF??

yep. I think the web is a great tool but it has also, as you say, brought the trash into our homes. Like any good tool it can be invaluable if used properly. Abused it can be a dangerous dangerous tool used by the weirdos of the world to get invited into our lives.

 

[mck16]

The Internet just brings all the trash and weirdo's into our living rooms. But, it also helps inform and educate us. For instance, I Use the Internet to find recipes and sometimes do some shopping. I know there are lot's of pornographic material and gambling, BUT I didn't know about the postings on Craigslist, I was shocked to see that list. Men meeting men. Men meeting woman, even the married people looking for a one time thing! Then the posting's by the creepy camper made me sick, along with many of the other posts. There was one I reported, couple looking for "girl" to live in and teach. WTF??

You are right, before you had to go out and buy a newspaper or rag magazine. Internet has made it easier and much less expensive. jmo

 

[whittymom4]

Totally agree! If judges start giving these creeps tougher sentences, maybe the crime rate for stuff like this would be a lot lower.

I also agree with cleaning up the RSO website and changing the laws.

 

[TGIRecovered]

Evidence could be physical (ie something to be forensically analysed) or anecdotal (witness statements or other leads which do not need to be sent to a lab). I wish we knew what kind of evidence led them to believe the girls are still alive. I also wish I knew how strong that evidence is. Evidence being simply evidence and not proof, knowing how credible or strong that evidence is would sure go a long way in helping many continue to hold out hope.

Maybe they claimed to have evidence that the girls are alive to see if a narcissistic perp would be offended and brag to someone or post a comment online to indicate otherwise. Just a thought!

MOO