IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #12

[Jax49]

I did, here it is -

http://www.theilpe.com/faq_eng.html

I doubt that's exactly a balanced view. Check this out for a opposite view. (Not saying its balanced either--it definitely isn't.)

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2002/11/lie-detector-roulette

snipped:
His pulse racing and his sweat glands in overdrive due to the bullying, Roche didn't have a prayer. His polygraph results were labeled "deceptive," he says, and he was abruptly bounced from the applicant pool. If he ever wants to apply for another government job, he'll have to admit to failing the Secret Service's polygraph -- a black mark that will likely disqualify him from federal employment for life. "I was washed up at that point," he says, fighting back tears. "To lose your career over a polygraph -- my God, it's devastating."

 

[Considering]

It's very humid during the summers here in Iowa, 89 degrees could be 100 depending on humidity. Air on.

Oh, boy. Do I understand humidity. The humidity is terrible where I live. I don't doubt that there were people who had air conditioning on that day. I'm just saying that according to what I've read, July 13 was a cooler day comparatively. At 11:54 a.m., the air temperature was 73.9 F and dew point was 69.9 F. Heat index is 75 F according to NOAA.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Here's a website that will debunk all the positives theilpe.com has to show.......


http://antipolygraph.org/index.shtml

You are comparing a site called "antipolygraph" and their theories, with the ILPE, an internationally credited and recognised body?




<modsnip>

 

[cindersoot]

I found the article and posted above but it doesn't help much with this question. I think he must've been on shore if Aunt T. talked to him since she was on the trail and not out in the lake. MOO. He said he didn't see the girls. Wish we knew what counts as a little boy for Aunt T. especially since it sounds like he was unattended when she talked to him. I have to think he was young but not super little. Also wish we knew what counts as a long time to this boy.

If and this is a big if, the perp nwas busy with the girls at that time.

 

[hollyblue]

The effort alone is noble and well worth it.

Respectfully, how are you accounting for mistaken reports? In these threads, for instance, there was a description of what was initially described as an attempted abduction. The alleged perpetrator came forward and LE determined it was a mistaken report (one thing I noticed was that the witness's story was morphing).

I think right now, people are on edge and some of the reports are mistaken.

JMO, I think the guilt that many parents may feel can tip the results as well. In Haley Dunn's case the mother was requested to take another poly because she had taken Abien? or some other sedative before hand. Many think she and bf did so to try to fool to the poly. Drugs and SO's were everywhere in Haley's environment.

 

[nervous_nellie]

Oh, boy. Do I understand humidity. The humidity is terrible where I live. I don't doubt that there were people who had air conditioning on that day. I'm just saying that according to what I've read, July 13 was a cooler day comparatively. At 11:54 a.m., the air temperature was 73.9 F and dew point was 69.9 F. Heat index is 75 F according to NOAA.

im in illinois and yesterday we had a temp of 86 with a "feels like temp" of 101, dew point was 74 and humidity was 54. it felt unbearable. the midwest is suffering a major drought as well. moo

 

[JaimeInLA]

Question for anyone with knowledge of family law:

If a hypothetical man has a no contact order with his own daughter, and will be going to prison for a very long time, is he still required to pay child support for that minor child?

 

[nikb]

Cloudy rainy and yes hot, very humid.

Yuck... doesn't sound like a very fun day to be outside. I can see why most people were probably inside with the windows closed and A/C on. I'm surprised the girls went out bike riding in it but that does explain why so few bikes were seen on the surveillance camera, and maybe the lake was even less populated than usual. IMO if I did go outside I'd be heading for a lake I could swim in.

ETA: said lake I would want to head to would not involve leeches. <shudder> IMO.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Question for anyone with knowledge of family law:

If a hypothetical man has a no contact order with his own daughter, and will be going to prison for a very long time, is he still required to pay child support for that minor child?

Short answer - yes.

The child does not cease to exist or require support, even if there is a no contact order.

 

[ShyViolet]

I'm sorry, I meant that a vehicle was parked in the "trap" area and the girls taken directly from there.

The trap was directly off the highway.

What exactly is the "trap area"? I would like to see it on a map?

 

[katydid23]

John Douglas lost all credibility for me when he declared the Ramseys innocent.

LTD's are like pregnancy tests...it's either positive (they are telling the truth), or it's not (there is deception/attempt at deception). There's no such thing as being a little bit pregnant.

:moo:

BBM

That is not correct, imo.

My 24 yr old son took a very important polygraph 2 weeks ago, to qualify for the police academy. He has not gotten the final results yet, although the cop who gave him the test said he thought he would ' be fine.'

But it is not cut and dry, or black and white, as you stated above. They do not just ask questions that have yes or no answers. ' They ask a lot of open ended subjective questions, which bring up a lot of emotional debris. So some of the answers might be borderline.

One example is they would ask " Have you ever cheated on a test at school.'
The test giver and test taker may have different definitions of 'cheating.' So you have to decide for yourself if they mean the times you and your lab partner split the homework and each did half of the answers. Is that going to count as cheating? Or do they mean did you ever copy all of the answers from your neighbor on a chem final. It is not cut and dry.

His 'mentor' told him that he needed to feel okay with his truths when he took the test. He had to know in his own heart what was cheating and what wasn't. If so, he could pass the test without problems.

So imo, it is not cut and dry. You can be telling the truth and fail. Or you can be innocent of the crime, and yet not pass the poly. If a parent felt guilty about some of the druggie friends they knew and possibly exposed their kids to, they might fail the test, even if they were innocent of the crime.

 

[writer7]

You are comparing a site called "antipolygraph" and their theories, with the ILPE, an internationally credited and recognised body?

<modsnip>

Both sources are probably hopelessly biased. Using a site designed by a body of professionals in the field to prove that the field is legit is kind of a 'well, duh' moment. What do you think they'll say? "No, our careers are spent on quackery now that you mention it."

Polygraphs can certainly be inconclusive. Look up the role of control questions in polygraphy. What happens when the control questions can't be controlled with a subject? Hint: it's not called deception.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Both sources are probably hopelessly biased. Using a site designed by a body of professionals in the field to prove that the field is legit is kind of a 'well, duh' moment. What do you think they'll say? "No, our careers are spent on quackery now that you mention it."

Polygraphs can certainly be inconclusive. Look up the role of control questions in polygraphy. What happens when the control questions can't be controlled with a subject? Hint: it's not called deception.

If the FBI are using it, which they are, it's good enough for me.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I respectfully disagree. It is fact that some people have been able to defy a polygraph intentionally and give a false "positive".

Also, polygraph is only as good as the person reading it/deciphering it. Human error is possible. It's not like a test that uses chemicals to weigh/measure amounts of hormone in someone's urine. Very different.

Even in pregnancy testing, there is such a thing as an inconclusive. They're called "chemical pregnancies" where the hormone levels are high enough to cause a positive on a home pregnancy test but no pregnancy ensues.

In polygraph tests, the operator attempts to establish normal using graph readings from sensors monitoring respiration, blood pressure and galvanic skin response. A strong emotional response is one that is at a level well above the established baseline.

An inconclusive ruling happens when the individual has a slightly stronger than the baseline normal response but not strong enough to be a definitely stronger than normal response.

The FBI is, among other things, tasked with maintaining national security by administering and monitoring security clearances. In many of the spy scandals over the last 20 years, the spies had passed repeated polygraph tests.

Given their multiple failures and scandals (anyone following the story about how literally thousands of cases nationwide are being reviewed due to deficits at the FBI forensic labs?), I'm not sure why anyone would hold up the FBI as the gold standard of legal investigations.

 

[otto]

And how do you know it's not LE tracks?

I do know that there has been no information regarding whether there were tire tracks anywhere around Meyers Lake.

 

[otto]

There is now new technology in LDT's, as I suspected. This, lifted directly from the International League of Polygraph Examiner's FAQ -

Can I beat the polygraph?
No, you cannot. If you know you are lying, the polygraph will detect the lie. Any qualified polygraph examiner, who graduated from an ILPE and/or an APA accredited polygraph school, will certainly detect deception. Furthermore, the computerized polygraph approved by the ILPE has a phenomenal accuracy rate of nearly 100 percent and is used in conjunction with highly effective polygraph accessories allowing a polygraph examiner to detect countermeasures an examinee may resort to in an attempt to influence the outcome of the polygraph examination.

http://www.theilpe.com/faq_eng.html

Lie detector tests are not recognized by the courts for a good reason.

 

[MotherOcean]

There were plenty of people about, exercising at the lake, I live in a very hot environment and the streets are deserted on hot days...this was not the case here.

Indeed, the girls wouldn't have gone on a ride at all, if it was extremely hot IMO.

It was also school holidays so there were quite a few people about who normally would not be about.

We have reports of people cycling, people jogging, paddling and fishing. Lots of folk at the lake that day.

So...exactly how would a single perp get two girls (one of whom was adult sized) to drop their bikes, surrender their purse, and walk without sound to a house that has already been searched and cleared, past fishermen, cyclists, joggers and paddleboaters, all unseen?

Not dismissing your opinion, just trying to see in my minds eye, how you think it could be done?

:moo:

BBM -

What house was searched and cleared? I haven't seen anything about that. That is very interesting!! Thanks for any info.!

 

[cindersoot]

:what:

I do know that there has been no information regarding whether there were tire tracks anywhere around Meyers Lake.

 

[katydid23]

There is now new technology in LDT's, as I suspected. This, lifted directly from the International League of Polygraph Examiner's FAQ -

Can I beat the polygraph?
No, you cannot. If you know you are lying, the polygraph will detect the lie. Any qualified polygraph examiner, who graduated from an ILPE and/or an APA accredited polygraph school, will certainly detect deception. Furthermore, the computerized polygraph approved by the ILPE has a phenomenal accuracy rate of nearly 100 percent and is used in conjunction with highly effective polygraph accessories allowing a polygraph examiner to detect countermeasures an examinee may resort to in an attempt to influence the outcome of the polygraph examination.

http://www.theilpe.com/faq_eng.html

BBM

That is the key right there;

If you KNOW you are lying AND IF YOU CARE...


If someone is a true sociopath and does not have any shame or emotional connection to what they do, then they will not register on the polygraph.

 

[shefner]

My son worked for his grandmother for several years. She runs a moving business. During one of the moves, something very valuable went missing and a co-worker accused my son of stealing it. The owner of the item was very upset and my son ended up at the police department and was intensely questioned. He continued, for several hours, to deny his involvement. The next day, they asked him to take a LDT. He was very nervous about it but agreed right away. Unfortunately, he failed, all the while claiming his innocence.

Later that day, the item was recovered. It seems the owner had misplaced the item....so it was never stolen at all. Thank goodness the owner let the police know and they allowed my son to go free.

After that incident, its tough for me to put too much stock in LDT.