IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #12

[JaimeInLA]

Jamie we pretty much just typed the same thing!!!

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I know! LOL! Jinx!

 

[Jules71]

They could have dropped their bikes, opened the unlocked gate, walked thru and out onto the jetty, and got in a paddle or row boat. The perp could have been familiar to them. He could have tossed the purse back toward shore and said you can get that when you get back. He could have paddled/rowed just over to the wooded area and got them out and into a vehicle right there on maiden lane or by the pump/lift house. Maybe LE found a paddle boat there and that is why they asked for info. Maybe a neighbors paddleboat was missing and that is why it is now in their front yard. Perhaps LE returned it after doing testing on it. Maybe they got the girls fingerprints off the boat.

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I think what I wrote above is what happened. IMO it is either that or the bikes were planted there by family and I am not leaning that way at this moment. MOO

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[SacreBleu]

But why go thru all that trouble, when all you have to do is go around it? A tall chain link fence is hard to climb.

Especially in flip-flops - which are what, I believe, Lyric was reported to have been wearing.

 

[lishac23]

I give up. One more time, all they had to do is go AROUND the fence to the lake side. The double fence is only about 500 yrds long.

Keeping in mind that this is a theory as to what could have happened if you believe that the girls voluntarily went to the lake after leaving their bikes....
500 yards is 5 football fields, which would take considerably longer than hopping a fence. Plus, if the plan was to get to the lake why drop your bike and walk 500 yards to get around the fence. Why not just ride the bike all the way to the end?

After being reminded about the open gate...I think this is how they got to the other side...

 

[JaimeInLA]

The last several pages of the previous thread had me thinking more than any other previous conversations we have had. I think I have a much clearer vision of what happened now, after examining Otto's map overlaid with Ollipop's pictures, and debating the location the bikes were found.

I now think the ONLY way the bikes would have been staged, is if the perp lives in a house very close to there, and had to get the bikes away from his house.

But I'm setting that possibility aside, and going with Occam's razor:

12:11-12:15: The girls are circling the block near Lederman's, passing time until they can go down to the lake and meet a friend

12:20-ish: They arrive at the lake. The speed at which they arrive suggests that they were on a mission, not taking a leisurely ride. They park their bikes by the gate, and decide walk through the fence.

My gut keeps sending me back to the request for info on the paddle boat. It is literally the only specific request that has been made of the public in this case. I now think that the FBI must KNOW that the girls did not climb the fence (no trace evidence, scent or fingerprints) and that they did not walk down the thin strip of land between the fence and the lake (no trace evidence, scent, or fingerprints). If their trail ends at the water's edge, then they HAD to have gone into the lake. Hence, the draining of the lake. But we know they aren't in the lake. This means they HAD to have gone onto a boat. TG would have heard a motor boat.

So boarded a paddleboat, which took them over to west side of the wooded area, just off of maiden lane. We also know they were in the wooded area, because their scent was detected there too (per Aunt Tammy). They thought they were going on a fun ride, but as soon as they got into the boat, the perp pulled out a weapon, told them to be silent and tossed the purse. They are just off shore, behind the trees, when TG rides by them and swerves around their bikes.

The kidnapping had to have happened by 1:00, because Lyric knew she was supposed to be back by then.

I always thought the bikes were found on the east end of the double fence section. Now that I see on the map, and using DM's and Abben's statements that they were found BY THE GATE, this has to be what happened. Without getting into WHO did it and WHY, I really believe with 90% certainty, that is WHAT happened.

I'm quoting myself to take this one step further. Suppose they were meeting a paddle boat person there. That person would have had to pre-set that meeting. He/she would have have to have KNOWN that Heather had a Dr. appointment that day, and Misty was at work. He/she had to find a perfect window when the girls would be able to ride that far without Grandma getting concerned. I am also 90% certain that the girls knew the abductor. Given the timeline, the bike location and the paddle boat plea -- I am now almost positive.

 

[lishac23]

Look at the fence in Otto's pictures. Notice how on the west side, it curves toward the water, and there are a LOT of trees around it. It would be WAY easier to just go through the unlocked gate, where the bikes were found. Why fight through trees and brush when you can just walk through a gate?

Thanks!!! I thought I read something about there being something they could have walked through, as opposed to hopping it. I couldn't remember.

 

[AmarilloByAM]

Who fits the post-offense behavior description?

http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

Fits it big time.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Sorry if this question has been answered, how far is the gate from where the bikes were found?

 

[Mimiof8]

But why go thru the gate when all you have to do is go around the fence.:banghead:

Maybe something or someone was blocking their way around the fence.

 

[elmomom]

I'm quoting myself to take this one step further. Suppose they were meeting a paddle boat person there. That person would have had to pre-set that meeting. He/she would have have to have KNOWN that Heather had a Dr. appointment that day, and Misty was at work. He/she had to find a perfect window when the girls would be able to ride that far without Grandma getting concerned. I am also 90% certain that the girls knew the abductor. Given the timeline, the bike location and the paddle boat plea -- I am now almost positive.

I don't mean to be snarky, but can you provide a link to the fact that Heather had an appt that day? I know it keeps getting repeated, but all I can find is that she was running errands, and a long time ago someone speculated that she had a cardio appt. and now it seems to be an accepted fact... Did I miss something?

Also, I am so not convinced that this was not just a random pedo on the lookout for easy prey. There is a clear view of the bike path from the lake, if I am not mistaken, and they can be ready to strike in a moment. Not sure about the paddle boat, at all.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Sorry if this question has been answered, how far is the gate from where the bikes were found?

I'm quoting myself. Looked at the map on page one. Looks like gate is right where the girls bikes were found. I agree they went through the gate.

 

[TxLady2]

You certainly have a right to your opinion and since I've never been there myself I have to rely on what other posters on here have experienced.

But these are children we're talking about. Children are not normally freaked out about woods and trees like adults would be, especially if they're used to them, not to mention this was in the middle of the day.
I would have to agree with the poster who said they would be more scared of big cities and dark alleys. She is saying that there are some people who wouldn't find it scary, and I totally agree with that.

 

[elmomom]

Who fits the post-offense behavior description?

http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

The problem with that list is that the majority do not do anything on the list! Notice all the %'s are way below 50 not even close to common behavior! I read it as ONLY 10% inject themselves... ONLY 23% leave area... Etc

 

[JaimeInLA]

I don't mean to be snarky, but can you provide a link to the fact that Heather had an appt that day? I know it keeps getting repeated, but all I can find is that she was running errands, and a long time ago someone speculated that she had a cardio appt. and now it seems to be an accepted fact... Did I miss something?

Also, I am so not convinced that this was not just a random pedo on the lookout for easy prey. There is a clear view of the bike path from the lake, if I am not mistaken, and they can be ready to strike in a moment. Not sure about the paddle boat, at all.

It was in that very first Nancy Grace interview with Wylma and Misty. Wylma said Heather had to go to an appointment, and that's why Wylma was watching all the kids alone that day (which was unusual).

 

[WY_Girl]

First time chiming in on these threads, though I've been following this case since the start. The talk about attempted abductions using a white van got me to wondering how often this is happening. Here's what I've found so far and I find it frightening.

July 18th, Peru, IL (167 miles from Cedar Rapids): attempted abduction of 11 yr old boy on bike by white van with chubby male driver.
http://newstrib.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=27&ArticleID=20926

July 19th, Cordova (Memphis), TN: attempted abduction of a 10 year old girl walking down a street, by 2 men in blue jump suits driving a white van.
http://wreg.com/2012/07/19/attempted-abduction-in-cordova/

July 26th, Marion and Debuque, IA; Mentions of 2 possible attempted abductions by a man in a white van. Man was found, interviewed and released because they didn't have enough evidence to hold him. Cripe!
http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/up.../article_52807f14-d6a3-11e1-a10d-001a4bcf887a.
AND: http://www.kwwl.com/story/19093640/dubuque-girl-escaped-possible-abduction

July 6th, Falls Church, VA: Attempted abduction of a 16 yr old girl as she was walking, by a hispanic man in a white van.
http://fallschurch.patch.com/articles/police-looking-for-man-who-tried-to-abduct-a-falls-church-girl

July 12th, Falls Church, VA (And LE doesn't believe these 2 cases are connected, HUH???) Attempted abduction of a girl by a hispanic man in a dusty blue sedan.
http://fallschurch.patch.com/articles/falls-church-police-investigating-second-abduction-attempt

July 26th, Story County, Iowa - 2 abduction attempts of a total of 3 kids, all on the same day. 1 involving a white van and the other a brown van.
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...ES/2-abduction-attempts-reported-Story-County

April 28th, Williamsport, PA, attempted abduction of 12 yr old boy by 2 males in a white van.
http://www.sungazette.com/page/content.detail/id/577694/2-try-to-abduct-12-year-old.html?nav=5011

April 26th, Clinton, MI - attempted abduction of 19 year old girl by man in white van. http://www.lenconnect.com/news/x1105742854/Information-sought-in-attempted-abduction

March 29th, Huntington, West VA, this article refers to 3 separate abduction attempts involving a white utility van, in 3 counties. http://sundaygazettemail.com/News/201203290035


Just a guess, but it appears that this might be some sort of organized child abduction ring as it appears that the abduction attempts are occurring in clumps around particular time periods. Lots of references to abduction attempts in April and July in the midwest and east coast. I have to run for now but will do some more research on this later. I just told both of my kids to never go near white vans, especially the kinds without windows in the back.

 

[Considering]

But why go thru all that trouble, when all you have to do is go around it? A tall chain link fence is hard to climb.

I'm not sure kids would consider it trouble. When we used to do it, we could have walked around the fence, too, but we thought it was fun to climb over it. The biggest problem I have with them climbing the fence is Lyric was wearing flip-flops (well, maybe, who knows?) and I don't think she could climb this type of fence very easily wearing flip-flops. It seems to me that if Lyric was going to climb over the fence, she would have taken off her flip-flops and tossed them over the fence and then climbed it. When she got on the other side, she would have had to put them back on or carried them, though, since they haven't been found (as far as we know).

 

[Wishbone]

But these are children we're talking about. Children are not normally freaked out about woods and trees like adults would be, especially if they're used to them, not to mention this was in the middle of the day.
I would have to agree with the poster who said they would be more scared of big cities and dark alleys. She is saying that there are some people who wouldn't find it scary, and I totally agree with that.

I am talking about the posters that visited and just going with what they have said they experienced. I have no idea what the children felt, but can somewhat imagine if they were actually abducted from that place.

 

[otto]

This is not directly entirely to you, but also to some of the other comments above: Ollie has said many times that he does not think the girls were on the lake side of the fence - the terrain is simply not conducive to playing. That, I suspect, is the reason for the fence. He also said that even HE gets creeped out riding through that part of the trail.

Fair enough, but the Maiden Lane is on the lakeside of the path, and it looks like it is quite possible that the girls could have gone over the fence and onto the lane.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I'm not sure kids would consider it trouble. When we used to do it, we could have walked around the fence, too, but we thought it was fun to climb over it. The biggest problem I have with them climbing the fence is Lyric was wearing flip-flops (well, maybe, who knows?) and I don't think she could climb this type of fence very easily wearing flip-flops. It seems to me that if Lyric was going to climb over the fence, she would have taken off her flip-flops and tossed them over the fence and then climbed it. When she got on the other side, she would have had to put them back on or carried them, though, since they haven't been found (as far as we know).

I agree kids have no qualms climbing fences. We used to do it even if there was an opening 10 ft down. We did it all the time at recess when the ball went over the fence, no one ever went thru the gate. As far as flip flops, if she is used to wearing them she probably had no trouble climbing a fence in flip flops.

I grew up in the country and was (is?) a tomboy. I climbed fences, climbed trees, played football either barefoot or in flip flops. Admittedly, I recently hiked 5 miles carrying a 30 lb toddler in flip flops.

 

[SacreBleu]

If that fence is eight feet high, then those officers and TG are nine feet tall. (I'm not saying that the fence isn't eight feet in some places, just not where that picture was taken). Caveat: there isn't a steep drop in ground level between the edge of the path and the fence. Hard to tell.