IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #12

[otto]

But how did they get over the fence? I was under the impression the fence was 8 ft high. Is this where the gate is and maybe they went through the gate?

It's a chainlink fence ... it's easy to put feet into the links and climb it. It looks to be somewhere between 6 and 8 feet in height, and if the girls were accosted on the trail, a perp would have no problem forcing them over the fence and climbing it himself.

 

[roseofsharon]

I'm quoting myself. Looked at the map on page one. Looks like gate is right where the girls bikes were found. I agree they went through the gate.

Then could have been lured north on Maiden Lane through the wooded area right up to the little dirt parking spot and the pump house.

From there, they could have been abducted either in a vehicle or by someone in the neighbourhood who had seen them ride their bikes around the trail in the past and intercepted them at the gate.

I feel this was a planned abduction and that Grandma was unaware that the girls rode this trail on a frequent basis.

Just IMO

 

[nikb]

This is not directly entirely to you, but also to some of the other comments above: Ollie has said many times that he does not think the girls were on the lake side of the fence - the terrain is simply not conducive to playing. That, I suspect, is the reason for the fence. He also said that even HE gets creeped out riding through that part of the trail.

Heck I get creeped out looking at PICTURES of that part of the trail. It just does not seem like an inviting place to stop and hang out at all. Unless MAYBE the girls are really into climbing? (i.e. climbing fences?) Even then I think a nearby tree would be much more appealing though.

 

[Pensfan]

Who fits this description around Evansdale?
-Sexual problems--Almost 1/3 of the killers of abducted children suffer from sexual problems.
-Serious behavioral problems--Seventy-nine percent of child abduction murderers have a history of serious personal behavioral problems.
-Alcoholic or drug addict--One-fourth of child abduction murderers have alcohol and/or drug problems.
-Mental health diagnosis--One-fifth will have a mental health diagnosis.
-Previous history of hurting children--Almost 50% will have a prior history of crimes against children. Twenty percent of child abduction murderers will have a previous sexual assault charge against a child.
-Noncomformist--This person has a weak social bond.
http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles/Another/

 

[otto]

Going along with your theory (which I find highly plausible by the way). If they intentionally went over the fence in that area...is there anything of interest to them besides that drainage pipe thing? Allegedly the dogs followed their scent to the lake, which would at least indicate they went over the fence. I can't imagine a perp being able to force two girls (one being a pretty solid girl) over a fence.

Elizabeth was 4'1" and 65 pounds. She could have been forced over the fence easily and Lyric, most likely, would have followed. I can't see it happening any other way. Grabbing the girls and then forcing them to walk to the end of the double fenced area, knowing that someone could come along at any moment, doesn't sound plausible to me ... but perhaps that happened. I just don't see the girls parking their bikes between the two fences and leaving them while they walked to where the fences end.

 

[JaimeInLA]

It's a chainlink fence ... it's easy to put feet into the links and climb it. It looks to be somewhere between 6 and 8 feet in height, and if the girls were accosted on the trail, a perp would have no problem forcing them over the fence and climbing it himself.

But why would a perp do that if there were an open gate, LITERALLY right where the bikes were found?! We have Abben and DM telling us the bikes were found AT the gate. I trust them more than I trust TG.

 

[JodiR]

But how did they get over the fence? I was under the impression the fence was 8 ft high. Is this where the gate is and maybe they went through the gate?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe when I walked the trail (west to east) that once the double fence starts, you could just walk around it to the lake side.

 

[Dr. Know?]

First time chiming in on these threads, though I've been following this case since the start. The talk about attempted abductions using a white van got me to wondering how often this is happening. Here's what I've found so far and I find it frightening.

July 18th, Peru, IL (167 miles from Cedar Rapids): attempted abduction of 11 yr old boy on bike by white van with chubby male driver.
http://newstrib.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=27&ArticleID=20926

July 19th, Cordova (Memphis), TN: attempted abduction of a 10 year old girl walking down a street, by 2 men in blue jump suits driving a white van.
http://wreg.com/2012/07/19/attempted-abduction-in-cordova/

July 26th, Marion and Debuque, IA; Mentions of 2 possible attempted abductions by a man in a white van. Man was found, interviewed and released because they didn't have enough evidence to hold him. Cripe!
http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/up.../article_52807f14-d6a3-11e1-a10d-001a4bcf887a.
AND: http://www.kwwl.com/story/19093640/dubuque-girl-escaped-possible-abduction

July 6th, Falls Church, VA: Attempted abduction of a 16 yr old girl as she was walking, by a hispanic man in a white van.
http://fallschurch.patch.com/articles/police-looking-for-man-who-tried-to-abduct-a-falls-church-girl

July 12th, Falls Church, VA (And LE doesn't believe these 2 cases are connected, HUH???) Attempted abduction of a girl by a hispanic man in a dusty blue sedan.
http://fallschurch.patch.com/articles/falls-church-police-investigating-second-abduction-attempt

July 26th, Story County, Iowa - 2 abduction attempts of a total of 3 kids, all on the same day. 1 involving a white van and the other a brown van.
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...ES/2-abduction-attempts-reported-Story-County

April 28th, Williamsport, PA, attempted abduction of 12 yr old boy by 2 males in a white van.
http://www.sungazette.com/page/content.detail/id/577694/2-try-to-abduct-12-year-old.html?nav=5011

April 26th, Clinton, MI - attempted abduction of 19 year old girl by man in white van. http://www.lenconnect.com/news/x1105742854/Information-sought-in-attempted-abduction

March 29th, Huntington, West VA, this article refers to 3 separate abduction attempts involving a white utility van, in 3 counties. http://sundaygazettemail.com/News/201203290035


Just a guess, but it appears that this might be some sort of organized child abduction ring as it appears that the abduction attempts are occurring in clumps around particular time periods. Lots of references to abduction attempts in April and July in the midwest and east coast. I have to run for now but will do some more research on this later. I just told both of my kids to never go near white vans, especially the kinds without windows in the back.

Around the time Isabel Celis disappeared in Tucson, AZ, there were multiple white vehicles trying to abduct children before and after. Vans & cars. It went on for about a month or so it seemed like with 5 reports at one school, a few at another. 2 years before that a man was caught driving a white pick up truck. He had grabbed one girl and she fought like the dickens until he dropped her off & another where the girl ran I believe. The US Marshals caught the perv. tg

White vehicles are common here due to the heat though. It just creepy there's so many attempted abductions with white vehicles. jmo

 

[elmomom]

Who fits this description around Evansdale?
-Sexual problems--Almost 1/3 of the killers of abducted children suffer from sexual problems.
-Serious behavioral problems--Seventy-nine percent of child abduction murderers have a history of serious personal behavioral problems.
-Alcoholic or drug addict--One-fourth of child abduction murderers have alcohol and/or drug problems.
-Mental health diagnosis--One-fifth will have a mental health diagnosis.
-Previous history of hurting children--Almost 50% will have a prior history of crimes against children. Twenty percent of child abduction murderers will have a previous sexual assault charge against a child.
-Noncomformist--This person has a weak social bond.
http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles/Another/

2/3 of killers have no sexual problems.
8 out of ten have behavioral problems.
3/4 have no drug or alcohol problems.
8 out of 10 have had no diagnosed mental illness.
50% have had history of violence towards children, and only 20% had a previous sexual crime against children
Person tends to be loner or non-conformist

Who do YOU think Pennsfan? I don't think anyone but someone who knows the abductor could answer this properly.

 

[nikb]

<snipped for space>
My gut keeps sending me back to the request for info on the paddle boat. It is literally the only specific request that has been made of the public in this case. I now think that the FBI must KNOW that the girls did not climb the fence (no trace evidence, scent or fingerprints) and that they did not walk down the thin strip of land between the fence and the lake (no trace evidence, scent, or fingerprints). If their trail ends at the water's edge, then they HAD to have gone into the lake. Hence, the draining of the lake. But we know they aren't in the lake. This means they HAD to have gone onto a boat. TG would have heard a motor boat.

So boarded a paddleboat, which took them over to west side of the wooded area, just off of maiden lane. We also know they were in the wooded area, because their scent was detected there too (per Aunt Tammy). They thought they were going on a fun ride, but as soon as they got into the boat, the perp pulled out a weapon, told them to be silent and tossed the purse. They are just off shore, behind the trees, when TG rides by them and swerves around their bikes.

The kidnapping had to have happened by 1:00, because Lyric knew she was supposed to be back by then.

I always thought the bikes were found on the east end of the double fence section. Now that I see on the map, and using DM's and Abben's statements that they were found BY THE GATE, this has to be what happened. Without getting into WHO did it and WHY, I really believe with 90% certainty, that is WHAT happened.

On the bolded part... yes, other than the white van which turned out to be nothing. (so far anyway, I guess they might still find something more about it).

I think your theory is very plausible though.

Even if they weren't behind the trees when TG rode by, he would've been focused on the trail and on dodging the bikes. He might have ridden right by them and not seen them or noticed them. Even if the girls hadn't been shown a weapon, I don't know that I'd think anything much of seeing a guy with two girls laughing and having fun in a paddleboat, assuming they thought they were out for a fun ride. As long as the guy was older, I'd assume he was out with his daughters for the day. A 20 year old with kids that age YES I'd do a double take and probably keep a very close eye on them for awhile to make sure the kids are ok, but a 30 year old, probably not. (not thinking of anyone in particular just throwing some ages out there).

I'm probably extra sensitive to it because of the way people stare at my single Dad brother when he's out with his daughter. I almost go overboard making sure I DON'T stare at someone out with their kid(s) unless the kid seems to be in distress. Although after reading here quite a bit that might be changing. Trying to think as a parent I'd certainly rather have 100 people stare me down every day than have my kid taken because no one questioned what was going on. It's a tough balance.

Sorry for any repeated info, still catching up. It's sad, I used to always skip to the last page first just in case there was some exciting new news, now I'm just starting off wherever I left off. I guess I've gotten past expecting anything new. Again, sad. Although I will be super excited if I finally catch up and find out there IS new news, especially good news.

 

[otto]

Im not sure where the idea that they went over the fence came from? That seems so highly unlikely to me because the fence is very high. Why is so hard to believe they went around the fence? If they did? Which I doubt. My personal opinion is Elizabeth tryed to run away and dropped her purse on the lake side. They retreived her and went on their way. But..JMO

Was the gate unlocked or open when you were there? How did the girls get to the lakeside of the fence? If they walked around the fence, why didn't they take their bikes with them? Is it a heavily treed area at the gate? From the aerial photos, I got the impression that the gate area is easily visible from both the road and the water.

 

[1MommaBear]

They could have dropped their bikes, opened the unlocked gate, walked thru and out onto the jetty, and got in a paddle or row boat. The perp could have been familiar to them. He could have tossed the purse back toward shore and said you can get that when you get back. He could have paddled/rowed just over to the wooded area and got them out and into a vehicle right there on maiden lane or by the pump/lift house. Maybe LE found a paddle boat there and that is why they asked for info. Maybe a neighbors paddleboat was missing and that is why it is now in their front yard. Perhaps LE returned it after doing testing on it. Maybe they got the girls fingerprints off the boat.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

And maybe they got the suspect's fingerprints off of the purse?

 

[otto]

But why go thru the gate when all you have to do is go around the fence.:banghead:

Why leave the bikes at the gate and walk the 100+ feet to the end of the fence when they can ride the bikes to the end of the fence and safely leave them on the side of the trail?

 

[katydid23]

I'm quoting myself to take this one step further. Suppose they were meeting a paddle boat person there. That person would have had to pre-set that meeting. He/she would have have to have KNOWN that Heather had a Dr. appointment that day, and Misty was at work. He/she had to find a perfect window when the girls would be able to ride that far without Grandma getting concerned. I am also 90% certain that the girls knew the abductor. Given the timeline, the bike location and the paddle boat plea -- I am now almost positive.

I agree. Which i why I still believe that the girls probably rode their bikes to that lake earlier that day. They left home at 11:30 am. So they had plenty of time to run into some one who might have suggested they take a boat ride or go fishing or picnicking.

I wonder if perhaps they made friends in the previous days with a local fisherman. They might have talked with him a few times and he could have said, " Come back at 12:30 and you can go for ride on the paddle boat "or something along those lines.

He may have told them to leave their bikes there and come through the gate. "And leave your purse so it won't get wet. "

 

[LittleMissContrary]

I have been puzzling over the evidence question myself quite a bit. First I asked the question, What evidence would you need to prove anyone was alive? What I came up with is that the only evidence that would indicate someone was still alive would be either a letter written in their own hand, an audio recording or phone call with the person's voice, or a photo or video of the person with indications that it was taken recently,
These are the only ways I can think of to demonstrate a person was still alive.

This all goes to support my theory that the FBI may have encountered pictures or videos of the girls on the internet.

 

[roseofsharon]

On the bolded part... yes, other than the white van which turned out to be nothing. (so far anyway, I guess they might still find something more about it).

I think your theory is very plausible though.

Even if they weren't behind the trees when TG rode by, he would've been focused on the trail and on dodging the bikes. He might have ridden right by them and not seen them or noticed them. Even if the girls hadn't been shown a weapon, I don't know that I'd think anything much of seeing a guy with two girls laughing and having fun in a paddleboat, assuming they thought they were out for a fun ride. As long as the guy was older, I'd assume he was out with his daughters for the day. A 20 year old with kids that age YES I'd do a double take and probably keep a very close eye on them for awhile to make sure the kids are ok, but a 30 year old, probably not. (not thinking of anyone in particular just throwing some ages out there).

I'm probably extra sensitive to it because of the way people stare at my single Dad brother when he's out with his daughter. I almost go overboard making sure I DON'T stare at someone out with their kid(s) unless the kid seems to be in distress. Although after reading here quite a bit that might be changing. Trying to think as a parent I'd certainly rather have 100 people stare me down every day than have my kid taken because no one questioned what was going on. It's a tough balance.

Sorry for any repeated info, still catching up. It's sad, I used to always skip to the last page first just in case there was some exciting new news, now I'm just starting off wherever I left off. I guess I've gotten past expecting anything new. Again, sad. Although I will be super excited if I finally catch up and find out there IS new news, especially good news.

Knowing they had to get back home, I don't think the girls went out on a paddleboat and I also think that would be a very risky thing for a perp to do, knowing that a family member could have shown up looking for the girls at any minute.

The perp worked very quickly, IMO.

 

[nikb]

I agree with this part but LE never said if the paddle boat person talked to them yet or not. I assume the person has not come forward as you think we would have heard about it.

Just a thought, it seems to me it's more likely the person has come forward or anyway has been found and that's why we've heard nothing more about it. I mean considering how much the white-van-guy's picture was publicized when they were looking for him, it seems they're not shy when they're looking for someone and haven't found that person yet.

 

[otto]

And why go around it when you can just go thru the unlocked gate?

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Do we know for sure that the gate is normally unlocked?

 

[nikb]

But why go thru the gate when all you have to do is go around the fence.:banghead:

I'm sorry, I feel really dense right now but I can't tell even looking at the pictures, how easy is it to go around the fence? Seems like it's pretty open and probably meant more to keep people from accidentally falling into the lake or somehow getting onto the highway. Although 8' is a pretty darn tall fence for that purpose. But anyway it sounds like it's completely open on both ends, is that right?

 

[GCP]

Do we know for sure that the gate is normally unlocked?

It was stated some where that the gate has been left unlocked since the last time the lake was drawn down about 2 years ago. I'm thinking it might have been Ollipop that said it, maybe not though.