I agree. However, due to talk, family backgrounds, etc...I am sure there are many people who would let their own superiority and judgement about the families lifestyle give them a holier-than-thou reason to not donate. Kids often get lost from the focus depending on their life circumstances. The real question is why is the community, knowing the family is most likely so overwhelmed, frazzled and not able to organize said events, not jumping in and showing compassion and doing it for them? Oh...I answered my own question.
IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #12
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I agree. However, due to talk, family backgrounds, etc...I am sure there are many people who would let their own superiority and judgement about the families lifestyle give them a holier-than-thou reason to not donate. Kids often get lost from the focus depending on their life circumstances. The real question is why is the community, knowing the family is most likely so overwhelmed, frazzled and not able to organize said events, not jumping in and showing compassion and doing it for them? Oh...I answered my own question.
Sorry, I see on re-reading there was definitely a paragraph break necessary.
Unless it occurred very early on. Right after the girls left the house. If they left a bit earlier than thought...really all someone would have to do is dump them fast...
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I just realized that if this picture was taken two days after the lake draining began, then the drainage pipe was mostly submerged when the girls were abducted. I don't think that they were doing anything in connection with the drainage pipe. For some reason, they stopped their bikes at the gate and likely went through ... but there was most likely no visible "jetty". There seems to be very little ground to walk on without stepping in the water after going through the gate ... but the water is leech infested. Did the girls know that?
Elizabeth's purse was found 20 feet east of where the bikes were leaning against a fence. Did she normally leave her things lying on the ground to collect later, or is she the type of child to keep her things close?
Elizabeth's purse was found 20 feet east of where the bikes were leaning against a fence. Did she normally leave her things lying on the ground to collect later, or is she the type of child to keep her things close?
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There is video of the girls at 12:15. The bikes were found at 3:58. There's no question about the timeline in terms of when the girls were last seen and how quickly their bikes were found.
How does someone quickly dump two girl's bikes and a purse by travelling 200 feet through the forest, 2-300 feet along the water/fence edge, through the gate and not be seen by anyone on the lane, trail, lake or roads. The time and risk associated with ditching the bikes in broad daylight at that location (without vehicle access) - right next to the construction crews and slowed traffic - doesn't make sense to me.
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Agreed. Not all children have an appropriate fight/flight response which could obviously have the potential to lead them into dangerous situations.
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It looks to me like the girls rode their bikes to the park, stopped at the gate, leaned their bikes against the fence, went through the gate and then, per the aunt, dogs tracked their scent towards Maiden Lane.
It's certainly clear in study after study that this stuff is generational. Really, you grow up in a home without great parenting, what do you know? Where would you get better role models? We don't teach parenting in most schools, not even child development or psychology in junior high or high school. Arguably, it is much more important to teach something like that than calculus.
I've long agreed with those who think we should have tax incentives to get people to have both premarital counseling and parenting classes. I'm no expert in this area but I believe other nations do this. We require a license to drive. It's not very practical to require a license to have sex or get pregnant, but we could offer incentives that would simply be much cheaper in the long run than what we pay for foster care, criminal courts, and social workers.
I'm with you there, I think it's either a newer or older "stranger danger" talk than the one I got, which quite honestly wasn't much. I've always heard run (which sadly I can't) and scream/yell/make noise (I can do that!). No offense to anyone I just remember growing up with "go with your gut" far more than "stranger danger." "Go with your gut" has stuck with me more and yet STILL I've found myself, even much older, in situations where I thought "I know this isn't the best idea but I don't want to be rude." I'm talking as recently as last year. It scares me.
We DID get talked to about strangers both at school and at home but I remember Smokey the Bear and "Only YOU can prevent forest fires" more than any stranger stuff. Oh and stop drop and roll if your house was on fire. I had all my stuffed animals and blankies tied together for years so me and the stuffed animals could all "stop drop and roll" and get out. Because of course it's a GREAT idea to have a trail of blankets and stuffed animals tied to your leg you when your house is on fire right? I was a kid and figured the adults had themselves and everything else handled. Who was going to save the Pound Puppy and all of his friends? It makes me so sad to think that was all right around Elizabeth's age and continued til nearly Lyric's age. I'm sorry, I'm upset and crying again. Kids just think differently! Back to current reality...
From the either newer or older "stranger danger" talks I was surprised to see dropping to the ground. I've always heard run as fast as you can and zig-zag in hopes of being unpredictable, if they have a gun.I vaguely remember hearing run straight because odds were the perp would be a poor shot. I also remember learning pretty early NOT to do the knee or ankle to the groin thing unless you were totally desparate, and it was repeated in a college self defense class. They said it's too expected, and makes it easy for the person to grab you under the knee or ankle and knock you on your back. I can't see what advantage dropping to the ground would have but I'm definitely interested in hearing it.
The best defense I remember hearing in both high school and college freaked me out because it meant getting close to the perp but it was "eyes/ears/nose/throat." I'm trying to find a link that doesn't look like an ad but I'm admittedly sleepy and can't find one right at the moment. Does anyone know what's being taught currently? Maybe it varies by age? What would E/L likely have learned or been expected to do?
NASCAR cars to carry photos of missing Iowa girls
Read more: http://www.wesh.com/news/national-n...15973346/-/on64dmz/-/index.html#ixzz22ecxxbvf
Read more: http://www.wesh.com/news/national-n...15973346/-/on64dmz/-/index.html#ixzz22ecxxbvf
I'm just wondering is that normal LE protocol for this area?
Answering part of my own question it probably happens so rarely they don't HAVE a "protocol" but if they do, would draining the lake be part of it? It seems strange to me but I've also never heard of a lake like that with an easy to use drain. Though I wouldn't doubt it at all. I just haven't seen one (that I know of).
Hey all. I had to take some days away from the internet, and despite reading for a while, I am still 20+ pages behind.
But a recurring discussion has me wanting to comment, and I apologize if it has since been settled/addressed.
In looking closer, the fence is not 8ft. In other spots along the highway, the fence is 8ft, but not here. And both of these fences are the same height, so I think many (myself included) felt that meant they were both 8ft, but I would guess they are closer to 6ft.
You could easily walk around the lake-side fence on either end. The gate was unlocked, but going through that gate would lead you only to the jetty. There is no easy access to the wooded area (or anywhere else) from that jetty. While there is some room between the fence and the lake, it is very narrow (recent photos don't show this as the lake has been drained, so it appears you could simply walk thru the gate and over to the woods). Its not to say someone couldn't/wouldn't try it, and the lake was lower than usual due to lack of rain, but there is sufficient growth of weeds, etc, as to make it difficult, especially considering you'd need to stay pinned against the fence in order to stay out of the water. Its not a walk I would take with shorts or flip-flops on. If you wanted over to those woods that badly, it would be easier to just walk east to the end of the fence. (But of course, why not just ride?)
Also, if you went out on the jetty, it would seem odd to me to close the gate behind you. So if you got on a boat, that gate would have been left open. We've heard the gate was unlocked (and has been for quite some time), but we never heard the gate was open, which I would assume would have gotten more press if so. Of course, perhaps it was left open, and that's why they focused on the lake. I think that is unlikely, though, as it seems that fact would have been mentioned. Also, perhaps it was closed by someone else (who has not come forward).
Over the fence? Again, possible, but difficult. Once there is room to stand on the other side of the fence (and not be almost standing in the lake), there are limited access points to the fence due to trees, vines, and bushes.
There has been no demonstration of exactly where the bikes were found. I think DM, and perhaps Abben, mentioned they were found "near" or "by" the gate, but neither was specific. My interpretation of these statements was simply that the gate was the closest descriptor. IMO, anywhere within 50-75 ft of the gate would be considered "near" or "by" the gate, relative to the length of the trail.
I don't think any of the possible ways to exit that stretch of fenced-in trail are any more or less likely than any other, but I remember some of my earliest comments in regards to that spot were that it was a very unlikely spot to stop and get off your bikes, both due to the "creepiness" of the area (which is really just the east end) and the fact that it was somewhat blind from both directions, such that a biker moving quickly could be upon you suddenly and there is not much room to maneuver.
Once you get past that end of the fence, up near the grassy area, there is a short bit of isolated trail before it opens up. I hope these photos help you visualize the area better.
Pic 1 is looking east down the trail from the west end of the fenced area. The girl on the bike is about 4' tall, the boy is 3', the ppl at the far end are adults. I would think the bikes could have been found anywhere between the girl and the adults and still be considered "near the gate."
Pic 2 is looking east from about where the adults were standing in the last pic. This is the creepy spot, and you can see there are few spots where climbing the fence would be easy.
Pic 3 is looking northeast, from about where the lake-side fence ends, showing that there is a "secluded" area, albeit very short, on the trail after the fence but before the grassy area.
Pic 4 is from the trail, just past the "Missing" poster in the last pic, looking north to Arbutus. There are tire tracks in the grass due to many LE vehicles driving down here. I had never seen a vehicle drive down here before, however.
Pic 5 is from Arbutus, looking back southwest at the trail as it enters the woods. This is more or less the opposite angle as seen in pic 3.
But a recurring discussion has me wanting to comment, and I apologize if it has since been settled/addressed.
In looking closer, the fence is not 8ft. In other spots along the highway, the fence is 8ft, but not here. And both of these fences are the same height, so I think many (myself included) felt that meant they were both 8ft, but I would guess they are closer to 6ft.
You could easily walk around the lake-side fence on either end. The gate was unlocked, but going through that gate would lead you only to the jetty. There is no easy access to the wooded area (or anywhere else) from that jetty. While there is some room between the fence and the lake, it is very narrow (recent photos don't show this as the lake has been drained, so it appears you could simply walk thru the gate and over to the woods). Its not to say someone couldn't/wouldn't try it, and the lake was lower than usual due to lack of rain, but there is sufficient growth of weeds, etc, as to make it difficult, especially considering you'd need to stay pinned against the fence in order to stay out of the water. Its not a walk I would take with shorts or flip-flops on. If you wanted over to those woods that badly, it would be easier to just walk east to the end of the fence. (But of course, why not just ride?)
Also, if you went out on the jetty, it would seem odd to me to close the gate behind you. So if you got on a boat, that gate would have been left open. We've heard the gate was unlocked (and has been for quite some time), but we never heard the gate was open, which I would assume would have gotten more press if so. Of course, perhaps it was left open, and that's why they focused on the lake. I think that is unlikely, though, as it seems that fact would have been mentioned. Also, perhaps it was closed by someone else (who has not come forward).
Over the fence? Again, possible, but difficult. Once there is room to stand on the other side of the fence (and not be almost standing in the lake), there are limited access points to the fence due to trees, vines, and bushes.
There has been no demonstration of exactly where the bikes were found. I think DM, and perhaps Abben, mentioned they were found "near" or "by" the gate, but neither was specific. My interpretation of these statements was simply that the gate was the closest descriptor. IMO, anywhere within 50-75 ft of the gate would be considered "near" or "by" the gate, relative to the length of the trail.
I don't think any of the possible ways to exit that stretch of fenced-in trail are any more or less likely than any other, but I remember some of my earliest comments in regards to that spot were that it was a very unlikely spot to stop and get off your bikes, both due to the "creepiness" of the area (which is really just the east end) and the fact that it was somewhat blind from both directions, such that a biker moving quickly could be upon you suddenly and there is not much room to maneuver.
Once you get past that end of the fence, up near the grassy area, there is a short bit of isolated trail before it opens up. I hope these photos help you visualize the area better.
Pic 1 is looking east down the trail from the west end of the fenced area. The girl on the bike is about 4' tall, the boy is 3', the ppl at the far end are adults. I would think the bikes could have been found anywhere between the girl and the adults and still be considered "near the gate."
Pic 2 is looking east from about where the adults were standing in the last pic. This is the creepy spot, and you can see there are few spots where climbing the fence would be easy.
Pic 3 is looking northeast, from about where the lake-side fence ends, showing that there is a "secluded" area, albeit very short, on the trail after the fence but before the grassy area.
Pic 4 is from the trail, just past the "Missing" poster in the last pic, looking north to Arbutus. There are tire tracks in the grass due to many LE vehicles driving down here. I had never seen a vehicle drive down here before, however.
Pic 5 is from Arbutus, looking back southwest at the trail as it enters the woods. This is more or less the opposite angle as seen in pic 3.
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Hope you had a nice day at the beach!!
I wanted to add without any disrespect intended I HAVE seen behavior like that at the beach and other places. But I've never known the economic background of the idiot parents. For all I know they were the 'richest' (monetarily speaking) people on the beach. The comments and behavior you saw have always, always disgusted me and I've seen it too.
This pic shows that there would be very little room to go east from the jetty (left in this pic). Keep in mind that when this photo was taken, the lake was down a couple feet. The water level is generally right at the top of that pipe.
Glad to see ya back.
Thank you and no jinx. Had a busy week at work, and a visitor from out of town got me looking at my yard. I realized I've been neglecting it for 3 weeks. Then I considered my own family and the condition of my house, and realized I've done almost nothing but "sleuth" on the internet for 3 weeks. So I just turned off all the electronics in the home for a couple days.
BTW, from discussions at work, this case is obviously still huge in ppls minds. I saw 3-4 ppl wearing the pink "Bring them home" t-shirts just today, in various places around town.
That's good and bad all at once. Take care of yourself and your family first.
I am freaking exhausted and have a sink full of dishes and basket full of laundry for basically the same reason except I feel even more helpless when it comes to helping L&E. I'm glad the shirts and message are still out there.
Thanks for your sleuthing and photos.
Here's another shot of the same area - between jetty and woods. All the muddy/gravel spots that these men are walking on would have been under water on the day the girls disappeared. You can see that there's not much to work with between the lake and the fence. Its not an impossible walk, but with shorts/flip-flops, and being in a hurry (had to be home well before 1:30), it just seems very unlikely to me they would leave their bikes on the path to traverse that area.
This just came to me, considering the paddleboat which I had all but dismissed earlier: what if Lyric was meeting an internet/real friend down by the lake. He says go out on the jetty and I'll pick you up and give you a ride to the shore (in the woods). There's not room for Lizzie, and she's just tagging along besides, so she manages to get over to the woods - by this ^^ treacherous walk, by climbing the fence, or by walking around it. And while she's sitting waiting for Lyric to get off the boat (might take 5 mins to get in, paddle to shore, get out), she puts down her purse assuming she'll be back to grab it. Once out of the boat, Lyric is joined by Lizzie, and suddenly they are alone in the woods with a friend-turned-perp. Just a theory that came to me, as always, pure speculation.
Just to re-iterate: I don't think we don't know exactly where the bikes were found, nor in what condition.
A witness reported them laying across the trail, the police spokesperson says they were leaning on a fence when he arrived.
I'm inclined to believe that when the bikes were found, the assumption was towards a drowning, and so the scene was not considered a crime scene. Knowing the family had been down there, and that the purse was found nearby, it is feasible to me that the bikes had been picked up and leaned against the fence before Abben (LE spokesperson) showed up.
And, we don't know if "by the gate" means right outside the gate, or several feet east or west of the gate. We've been told, I believe, where the purse was found in relation to the bikes, but not exactly where the bikes were.
Unless I missed something, which is completely possible at this point.
A witness reported them laying across the trail, the police spokesperson says they were leaning on a fence when he arrived.
I'm inclined to believe that when the bikes were found, the assumption was towards a drowning, and so the scene was not considered a crime scene. Knowing the family had been down there, and that the purse was found nearby, it is feasible to me that the bikes had been picked up and leaned against the fence before Abben (LE spokesperson) showed up.
And, we don't know if "by the gate" means right outside the gate, or several feet east or west of the gate. We've been told, I believe, where the purse was found in relation to the bikes, but not exactly where the bikes were.
Unless I missed something, which is completely possible at this point.
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