IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #13

[LittleMissContrary]

Sorry, I understand why a statement like that would be discouraged. I have heard of 4 "attempts" with a white van here in Iowa and 3 of them have been said to be misunderstandings or lies. I realize I may not be hearing all of the stories but I live in Cedar Rapids & the white van paranoia is driving me crazy.

Regardless of is they are real or fake, I still don't believe this is what happened to L & E because it just does not fit with the story of the 5 yo here in Cedar Rapids (white van stops on busy street to quickly snatch boy)

Here are the stories I know of:

5 year old boy in Cedar Rapids - 2 people jumped from white van and grabbed him. Boy's father chased them away. I haven't heard any follow up on this which makes me feel it was real but they haven't found the van.


"Last week, Marion police said a man driving a white van offered a 14-year-old boy candy at an intersection near Linn-Mar High School. The boy took off on his bicycle, and the interaction was later reported to police, but officials said it was not an abduction attempt."

http://thegazette.com/2012/08/02/cedar-rapids-police-fielding-several-white-van-tips/


"Two girls who reported an abduction attempt to Indianola police Monday fabricated the story, authorities said."

http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2012/08/07/abduction-attempt-reported-in-indianola/


"And last week in Dubuque, police were called after a man in a white van approached a young girl. Police talked with the owner of the van, and decided not to file any criminal charges. "

http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/...1/abduction-attempt-reported-in-cedar-rapids/

What stories am I missing?

I will concede that the hysteria in the wake of this abduction has contributed to a few unfounded stories. But looking at the bigger picture, there are many, many more legitimate stories which I have been documenting. I tried to post a link to the data in a spreadsheet form, including original msm links, but it got pulled by the mods. I have sent a request to the owners of the website to provide access to the data, as the mod kindly suggested, and am awaiting a response.
The fact is that there have been multiple attempts in Iowa and neighboring states prior to these recent events.

 

[Copper]

If you had to guess, why do you suppose the girls rode that far when they were on schedule to meet with grandma at a certain time?
Did they have previous plans to meet someone?
Or we're they grabbed by an opportunist?

Thanks. :goodpost:
Now my brain is cooking again on how the girls could have been taken much closer to home and then the bikes/purse were staged.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I will concede that the hysteria in the wake of this abduction has contributed to a few unfounded stories. But looking at the bigger picture, there are many, many more legitimate stories which I have been documenting. I tried to post a link to the data in a spreadsheet form, including original msm links, but it got pulled by the mods. I have sent a request to the owners of the website to provide access to the data, as the mod kindly suggested, and am awaiting a response.
The fact is that there have been multiple attempts in Iowa and neighboring states prior to these recent events.

Multiple (failed, alleged) attempts.

:moo:

 

[SouthernMom]

If you had to guess, why do you suppose the girls rode that far when they were on schedule to meet with grandma at a certain time?
Did they have previous plans to meet someone?
Or we're they grabbed by an opportunist?

I think that kids are notoriously bad at estimating time. They probably had made the ride before and it seemed like a quick one. That said, I could have ridden a mile and a half on a sidewalk probably in about 15 minutes on my bike when I was 10. Twenty minutes at the most. That puts them at the gate at about 12:31, using the 12:11 time stamp on the video of them near their home.
Bikes thrown down in the path suggests an element of surprise to me. The purse thrown down near the lake with the cell phone fallen out of it also suggests force.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Thanks. :goodpost:
Now my brain is cooking again on how the girls could have been taken much closer to home and then the bikes/purse were staged.

I can't get past the dogs and the scent to the wooded area.

:dunno:

 

[LittleMissContrary]

Ooops! Sorry. Wrong Link. The one in Des Moines is here: http://urbandale.patch.com/articles/girl-who-reported-abduction-will-not-go-to-juvenile-court

Good point regarding separating the real events from the hoaxes. The good news about this problem is that the hoaxes are discovered and then the media is notified. The police do take these things rather seriously.

I do not have any of the hoax events in my database so far.

I also am not specifically talking about "White van" abductions. From what I have documented thus far, there are a variety of vehicles, although vans do seem to be predominate.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think that kids are notoriously bad at estimating time. They probably had made the ride before and it seemed like a quick one. That said, I could have ridden a mile and a half on a sidewalk probably in about 15 minutes on my bike when I was 10. Twenty minutes at the most. That puts them at the gate at about 12:31, using the 12:11 time stamp on the video of them near their home.
Bikes thrown down in the path suggests an element of surprise to me. The purse thrown down near the lake with the cell phone fallen out of it also suggests force.

Do you have a link for that? Someone said they were placed neatly.

tia.

 

[Mimiof8]

http://cedarfalls.patch.com/articles/fundraiser-for-lyric-and-elizabether-planned-in-cedar-falls

Fundraiser for Lyric and Elizabeth, Missing Evansdale Cousins, Planned in Cedar Falls
A fundraiser will be held at Heartland Vineyard Church.

Snip for 10% rule more at link

Anyone who would like to help can make a donation at any Veridian Credit Union branch to the Lyric Cook Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins Fund.

 

[SouthernMom]

I'm still not sure about whether the girls planned to meet someone or it was a crime of opportunity, but one thing I can rule out is that I know for sure no one contacted them on the cell-phone which was not connected and used to play games (and IMHO, maybe keep track of time.) Maybe they had used the cell phone to time the ride before and knew they could make it back. IDK about that though.

 

[Copper]

I can't get past the dogs and the scent to the wooded area.

:dunno:

Could the scents of the girls have lasted from previous visits. It doesn't seem like they were strangers at the lake.

From http://www.missingpetpartnership.org/petdetective-scent.php

Scent will pool, cling, and survive in shady areas and areas with lush vegetation. The moisture provided by lush green grass, the shade of a front porch, or the damp surface of a gutter are all examples of places where residual scent could be present several days after the source of the scent has passed through an area.

EDIT: Found this: Human Scent and Its Detection
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ence/kent-csi/vol5no2/html/v05i2a04p_0001.htm

 

[SouthernMom]

Do you have a link for that? Someone said they were placed neatly.

tia.

I think that TG said he had to swerve to miss them but I will have to look for the link to the articles that mentioned the bikes laying on the trail and thephone laying separately from the purse, on the lake side of the fence, about 10 feet from the bikes. It's getting late here, so I may just do that tomorrow. I do think I am on to something with them following the sidewalks though. IMHO, of course.

 

[GrainneDhu]

There are about 10 intersections between the video footage and where the trail begins at the park. I really doubt that the girls powered through 1.5 miles and 10 intersections in less than 5 minutes.

Equally, I doubt a perp in a vehicle could go that 1.5 miles and 10 intersections in less than 5 minutes.

While a vehicle is faster than a bicycle over long distances, a bicycle is often faster for short distances in town. Many bicyclists don't strictly obey lights, etc. Hence bicycle messengers in large cities.

So TG's sighting of the bicycles as his estimated time of 12:20 pm is a massive spanner in the works. Or, it is simply inaccurate. Like many another eyewitness, he may have been mistaken in ID'ing the bicycles, mistaken about which day he saw them, etc.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think that TG said he had to swerve to miss them but I will have to look for the link to the articles that mentioned the bikes laying on the trail and thephone laying separately from the purse, on the lake side of the fence, about 10 feet from the bikes. It's getting late here, so I may just do that tomorrow. I do think I am on to something with them following the sidewalks though. IMHO, of course.

Every source I have says the cell phone was IN the purse.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Equally, I doubt a perp in a vehicle could go that 1.5 miles and 10 intersections in less than 5 minutes.

While a vehicle is faster than a bicycle over long distances, a bicycle is often faster for short distances in town. Many bicyclists don't strictly obey lights, etc. Hence bicycle messengers in large cities.

So TG's sighting of the bicycles as his estimated time of 12:20 pm is a massive spanner in the works. Or, it is simply inaccurate. Like many another eyewitness, he may have been mistaken in ID'ing the bicycles, mistaken about which day he saw them, etc.

The map with the orange trail doesn't appear to be the route the girls took.

 

[SouthernMom]

Good nite everyone. Wishing you all a safe and peaceful night and praying for these two sweet girls, Elizabeth and Lyric to make it home safely.

 

[taagean]

I can't get past the dogs and the scent to the wooded area.

:dunno:

Wasn't it Tammy, Misty or Grandma who said the girls scent went into the woods - not LE?
If I remember correctly, LE has never stated that the girls were there, just that their bikes were. I thought each family had something of one of the girls and the dogs went into the woods separately but then the handlers took the dogs back out. It seemed a little odd at the time and no one could understand why the dogs were called back.
I don't recall LE ever stating for sure that the girls were there. Will have to go back and check.

 

[superbee]

I am wondering if the girls could be hidden underground. In an old air raid shelter in a backyard, perhaps right close by? Did they have those in Iowa?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Pahl is the manager of Cornbelt Auctions, 3520 Lafayette Road, where a 24-hour camera captured the footage from its position behind the building. The time and date stamp — 12:11 p.m. July 13 — fits the police timeline of the case.

However, Pahl said the camera’s clock is eight minutes slower than his U.S. Cellular phone.

About 4 p.m. the youngsters’ bikes and Collins’ purse were found on the south side of Meyers Lake. Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo, a bicyclist who said he often rides the Evansdale Nature Trail, has previously told The Courier he saw the two kids’ bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children.
http://m.wcfcourier.com/news/evansd...cle_c7394e3c-d6a6-11e1-a4f3-0019bb2963f4.html

I definitely think this article the FBI is going by the time stamp specifically on the camera. Mr. Pahl said the clockon the camera is slower than his cell phone.... maybe his cellular phone is not correct. I have been known to set my clocks a little faster, so I will actually hurry and get to appointments on time....I tend to procrastinate. TG only states at about 12:20, could have been sooner than that or even later. Looking at the rate of speed the girls are traveling on the video, I do believe they could have made it to the lake within 8 minutes, maybe it was 10minutes. It was close I believe. Thanks to Wishbone for posting the link.

I have a US Cellular cell phone. I've never set the time on my phone (a very basic model) because it is set automatically every time the phone pings. That means it is re-set many times a minute.

There aren't even any settings for changing the time. There is an option to change the format from a 12 hour (civilian time) format to a 24 hour (military time) format.

That's it.

I just re-set my computer's time using the official time set by the US government. My US Cellular phone matches down to seconds (I don't bother with fractions of seconds).

Even if TG estimated the time he took to ride to the station, use the facilities and then call his daughter, the timeline is just too tight for anyone to get the bicycles there for his sighting, in my humble opinion.

 

[Ollipop]

I wouldn't be surprised if some people walking east turn around before they get to that gate area. Some not wanting to walk the creepy part of the trail and parents telling children to turn around and head back at a certain part to be sure they see them at all times. jmo

My kids and I do this often and I see others doing likewise. There is a marble bench directly across the lake from the park, dedicated to a state trooper who lost his life in the line of duty at that spot on the highway (the new construction in the area reveals new signs dedicating the bridge that carries I-380 and Hwy 20 across the Cedar River to him as well). At any rate, we start west of the park, where the trail hits Gilbert near Jones Rd, and travel counter-clockwise around the lake to that bench, and turn around and head back to the park or home. That creepy area, besides the creep, is where the trail begins to leave the lakeshore, so it is much less scenic past there as well, relatively.

That is the direct path (the bike trail through town) that I have always thought the girls took straight to where the bikes were found.

I think that map (the one counting the intersections, not sure if it copied here) shows them traveling EAST (right) on Brovan and to the trail, but the video has them going WEST (left) on Brovan towards River Forest Road (as in Hollye's map).

Pahl is the manager of Cornbelt Auctions, 3520 Lafayette Road, where a 24-hour camera captured the footage from its position behind the building. The time and date stamp — 12:11 p.m. July 13 — fits the police timeline of the case.

However, Pahl said the camera’s clock is eight minutes slower than his U.S. Cellular phone.

About 4 p.m. the youngsters’ bikes and Collins’ purse were found on the south side of Meyers Lake. Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo, a bicyclist who said he often rides the Evansdale Nature Trail, has previously told The Courier he saw the two kids’ bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children.
http://m.wcfcourier.com/news/evansd...cle_c7394e3c-d6a6-11e1-a4f3-0019bb2963f4.html

I definitely think this article the FBI is going by the time stamp specifically on the camera. Mr. Pahl said the clockon the camera is slower than his cell phone.... maybe his cellular phone is not correct. I have been known to set my clocks a little faster, so I will actually hurry and get to appointments on time....I tend to procrastinate. TG only states at about 12:20, could have been sooner than that or even later. Looking at the rate of speed the girls are traveling on the video, I do believe they could have made it to the lake within 8 minutes, maybe it was 10minutes. It was close I believe. Thanks to Wishbone for posting the link.

I agree, I think they could have made it to the lake in this timeline

If they continued on the route they were filmed, they come to River Forest Rd (not to be confused with River Rd), a main N-S (or top-to-bottom) artery in E'dale, passing from I-380 to Lafayette on the west (left) edge of town, with only one stop sign at Central. Its a busy road - by E'dale standards - but not packed, and all sideroads have to stop.

If they got back to Evans (by turning down River Forest, then turning left (east) again at some point, all sideroad traffic yields to Evans, making it also a fairly quick route.

If they continued past Evans to the bike trail, its like a wide sidewalk w/o cars, but it does cross many roads, requiring at least that you slow down, but at noon-ish on a summer Friday in E'dale, IA, there isn't going to be a "busy" street by most of the world's standards.

I think any of those routes gets them to the lake before TG sees the bikes. I agree, that he (or the reporter who interviewed him) seems to have estimated "around 12:20" based on a 12:27 phone call. If two girls can make it from River Forest Road and Brovan, all the way to the SE corner of Meyers Lake AND have time to be off their bikes and out of sight (they honestly could have been standing out on the jetty and TG simply never noticed, focusing instead on not crashing into their bikes) all in 8 minutes, then TG, who apparently was riding swiftly enough to remember needing to swerve suddenly, could easily have made it the rest of the way around the lake to where the trail continues north (up) to Gilbert, and cut over to Casey's (the corner of Gilbert and River Forest can be cut due to a parking lot) in much less than 7 minutes. Granted, he claims to have used the restroom, but conceivably that was the source of his haste, therefore he remedied it hastily.

Given what we know about clocks and inaccuracies in reporting times, isn't it possible he was at the lake as late as 12:25? (And for some reason it is stuck in my craw that he'd guesstimated the time of 12:27 as when he saw the bikes, not when the phone call was made. Can anyone confirm what TG said about the time, rather than what a reporter says he said? Could that be something LE intended to keep vague? Am I completely wrong on that time thing?)

Sorry but I think this route is incorrect.

Mr Carpenter (who sighted the girls that day) lives on Lake Ave, which would imply to me that they travelled straight down S Evans Ave, turned left to Gilbert, right to Lake which leads directly to Arbutus.

:moo:

I agree. I think they came down S. Evans, turned left on Gilbert and a right @ Lake where Mr. Carpenter saw them and then onto Arbutus. Either crossed the field beyond the woods or continued on Arbutus and picked up on the trail. I think they took this way often and someone knew it.

If I'm reading this right, then you're saying the girls took Evans almost all the way to the lake, but decided to turn east on Gilbert and then south on Lake? Anyone know why they'd do that? All I can think of is that the perp lives on Lake Avenue.

No big mystery, it's just the most direct route to where the bikes were found.

again, the Carpenters live in a corner house to Gilbert- and it has not been stated whether they turned onto Lake or were riding on Gilbert...assuming the Carpenters have the correct girls
...

SBM

Or the perp or someone they were avoiding actually lives on Evans.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

There has always been something odd about this Lake Ave sighting as well. It seems credible, it doesn't require extra stretching of the timeline, the sidewalks DO make it work, but I still can't get it out of my head that it wasn't used because it was the most direct route, but because for some reason it was most familiar to the girls - there was someone on Lake they were riding past, or someone on Evans they were riding around. At any rate, it seems they did it a lot. Enough that a little old couple who live a mile away, down a busy road, and across both directions of a busy intersection, felt that they got to know one of these little girls. That alone, when taken with what the family says about the girls' bike rides, stands out as odd to me, always has. JMO

 

[GrainneDhu]

I have been thinking about this and IMHO either the perp(s) intended to take both girls and planned for it, or the second girl was just a bonus and for some reason was taken as well, rather than left where the bikes were found. I'm thinking that leaving her there with the bikes would have created a bigger problem. Imagine if TG had come upon a child left behind in whatever condition. There would have been less time to make a getaway.
Both of these options make me sick to my stomach, however if both girls were meant to be taken, this could explain why LE made a statement that they believed the girls were alive.

I agree with this.

I think one of the girls (and I do not know which) was grabbed to delay discovery of the other girl's disappearance.

It may also have been that the perp realised both girls had seen their face, heard their voice, etc, and felt that leaving one would be leaving a witness who could at some point identify the perp. It certainly would not be the first time someone was abducted or killed because they saw the wrong thing at the wrong time.

I hate to write this but if the perp's intention from the very beginning was to hunt for someone to abuse and kill, then killing two girls is not such a large step from deliberately hunting a single victim to kill.

Or, the perp may have been deliberately looking for two victims.

The cases of Cinda Pallett and Charlotte Kinsey comes to mind. The two girls were friends, 13 years old, both disappeared at the same time on the way to the Oklahoma State Fair. A carnival worker was tried but charges were dismissed in their case. He was convicted of another murder and died in prison, so he's not a possible suspect here.

Tangential note: if you look at Charlotte Kinsey's two Doe Network photos, they were taken in the same year and she looks vastly different ages in them (maybe 12 in one, maybe 25 in the second). A very good example of how an early adolescent can look very different in a very short period of time.

http://doenetwork.org/cases/174dfok.html