IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #13

[Pensfan]

Quoting myself here since the date thing came up. It was said the girls did not fit the age profile of these other cases (the date does however), but these women are all described as petite, and as looking younger than they were. Maybe the perp started going after younger victims? The other abductions happened lare at night or very early, not a time kids would be around. Its possible he never had the opportunity, or the boldness to grab a young girl in broad daylight.

I still think the road construction link is valid. I assume LE has investgated that. I mean these construction workers were probably the closest people to the abduction site, providing they were grabbed where the bikes were found.

It was raining that morning which makes me wonder if some of the construction workers were not at their jobs early that afternoon.

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

MOVE ON from the homophobia discussion please. This is NOT the place for it.

 

[Wishbone]

It was raining that morning which makes me wonder if some of the construction workers were not at their jobs early that afternoon.

I keep hearing that it rained that day. Does anyone know if it was a good enough rain that a person shouldn't have to WATER their grass for three hours that same day?

 

[tlcya]

So frustrating without new news to chew on

 

[MagnoliaMom]

This crystalized in my mind earlier this morning. The FBI said weeks ago they have reason to believe the girls are alive and that that passage of time would not discourage them. Plus, the investigation has been silent for so long.

What if the information the FBI has is intelligence from an ongoing investigation into a pedo ring? And the reason the FBI, local LE and the family aren't saying anyting is because the Feds don't want to compromise their investigation?

A pedo ring makes some sense to me. Some perps move into a town and shack up somewhere. They spend a few weeks or months in the area, grooming a number of targets for potential abduction. And then when the oppurtunity presents itself, they grab one of their targets and run.

This has been on my mind since someone posted that link about 200+ children being rescued from a ring of horror (I can't remember if it was or trafficking) in Australia I think. What stood out in my mind was that they had been investigating it for some time before they busted the ring and saved the children. I absolutely could not have that job. How in the world does one go to bed knowing this information?

 

[tlcya]

I keep hearing that it rained that day. Does anyone know if it was a good enough rain that a person shouldn't have to WATER their grass for three hours that same day?

I have heard from locals that it simply "spit" that day. Light sprinkle earlier in the day is what I've been told. As far as the lawn waterer, I don't think he was watering for a full three hours but just waters sometime within a three hour span. My own impression of that witness is that he waters regularly in the afternoon and that is why the 3 hour time span, witness probably didn't remember exactly what time he watered that day but recalls, after hearing of missing girls, having seen them.

 

[Bettylou4you]

It was raining that morning which makes me wonder if some of the construction workers were not at their jobs early that afternoon.

Road work crews commonly inhabit Motel 6 kind of places enmass. They also commonly drive larger vehicles, like pickup trucks and vans. I would hope LE investgated these locations. Like hiding in plain sight. A motel room with a do not disturb sign all day would raise a flag for me.

 

[Sunlight]

Why didn't they pick up even one footprint?

 

[Copper]

Road work crews commonly inhabit Motel 6 kind of places enmass. They also commonly drive larger vehicles, like pickup trucks and vans. I would hope LE investgated these locations. Like hiding in plain sight. A motel room with a do not disturb sign all day would raise a flag for me.

Can you help me see how that would have gone down, a road crew worker abducting the girls and getting rid of them after? I can't see in my mind how that would have worked out.

 

[tlcya]

WEATHERING
Weather may either aid or hinder tracking. It affects signs in ways that help determine how old they are, but wind, snow, rain, and sunlight can also obliterate signs completely.

By studying the effects of weather on signs, you can determine the age of the sign. For example, when bloodstains are fresh, they may be bright red. Air and sunlight will change the appearance of blood first to a deep ruby-red color, and then to a dark brown crust when the moisture evaporates. Scuff marks on trees or bushes darken with time. Sap oozes from fresh cuts on trees but it hardens when exposed to the air.

FOOTPRINTS
Footprints are greatly affected by weather. When a foot displaces soft, moist soil to form a print, the moisture holds the edges of the print intact and sharp. As sunlight and air dry the edges of the print, small particles that were held in place by the moisture fall into the print, making the edges appear rounded. Study this process carefully to estimate the age of a print. If particles are just beginning to fall into a print, it is probably fresh. If the edges of the print are dried and crusty, the prints are probably at least an hour old. The effects of weather will vary with the terrain, so this information is furnished as a guide only.

A light rain may round out the edges of a print. Try to remember when the last rain occurred in order to put prints into a proper time frame. A heavy rain may erase all signs.

Wind also affects prints. Besides drying out a print, the wind may blow litter, sticks, or leaves into it. Try to remember the wind activity in order to help determine the age of a print. For example, you may think, "It is calm now, but the wind blew hard an hour ago. These prints have litter blown into them, so they must be over an hour old." You must be sure, however, that the litter was blown into the prints, and was not crushed into them when the prints were made.

Trails leaving streams may appear to be weathered by rain because of water running into the footprints from wet clothing or equipment. This is particularly true if a party leaves a stream in a file. From this formation, each person drips water into the prints. A wet trail slowly fading into a dry trail indicates that the trail is fresh.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/21-75/Appe.htm

I don't think there were footprints to find because of they very dry weather. Yes it was said to have lightly sprinkled briefly early in the day but by the afternoon, with the drought conditions, condition s may not even have been right to leave footprints.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Why didn't they pick up even one footprint?

We don't know that they didn't.

There is still a lot of things we don't know, like the "physical evidence" they found.

:moo:

 

[Bettylou4you]

:fence:

Can you help me see how that would have gone down, a road crew worker abducting the girls and getting rid of them after? I can't see in my mind how that would have worked out.

They spend time in various towns, identify bars, parks, ec... Where people can be observed and watched. They have down time and delays and split shifts. He could grab someone and have plenty of time to grab someone. They could be held restrained in a van for days, or in a hotel room that is locked up. They could dispose of them in another town. I din't have it all worked out, but the FBI is onto this MO and i would hope it has been explired, if only to rule it out. Just thinking out loud here since so many other scenarios have come up.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I interpret it as: We haven't found any evidence that they are dead. We don't want reporters calling us every 20 minutes so we are going to tell you that the passage of time won't change our mind. I guess the media around there got the hint, because I haven't seen any evidence of LE being pressed for more info. I would love it if someone proved me wrong though!

I can't think of any reason why someone(s) would disappear two girls other than to rape and/or murder them. I don't want to be harsh and I hope I am wrong. I'm sure there are instances of other scenarios, but I can't think of any.

Good people who want to help or don't approve of a situation don't just steal other people's children. They just don't.

I can.

<modsnip>

I wonder if we could use THIS from my new bff Deputy Abben -

"Now that it is an abduction everyone is a suspect until we find these people, these two young girls. We look at everybody not just one set of parents over the other," he said. "... Everything has to be considered."
He did however say that they requested the court put Dan Morrissey under supervision in connection with a pending drug trial so they "could have closer supervision."

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_507d9bca-d2b1-11e1-8f0b-0019bb2963f4.html


:dunno:

 

[roseofsharon]

For those who know the park, are there any refreshment booths in the park, i.e. the type of vendor that can pull a small trailer in a parking lot for the day or permanent booths located right in the park that lock up during the cold months (soda, ice cream, etc.)

Also, are there permanent washrooms in the park or the plastic johnny on the spot type of washrooms located throughout the park that get taken away until the nice weather returns.

TIA

 

[TobyWong*]

just wanted to jump in & ask.. did anything ever come of the blur movement, that I thought was a human, on the cctv of the girls?

Since Imo the girls could've been taken right after the cctv video and the bikes were rushed to the lake via the grassy area, this blurry figure is a POI.imo. I get that staging does seem like to much work but I figure if the perp(s) are local &/or known to the family they could'nt afford a search of that immediate area AND they wanted LE and any searching to take place a ways away from point of crime and in a place bikes would be common. And it had to be close enough for them to not be noticed being gone to long. All this while i think someone else took the girls away.imo

Ollipop thank you so much for that first hand account of the area that night! Invaluable insight. Awesome show of humanity in your fellow neighbors. It's so sad that organized searches just stopped. I'd love to have a rumor thread just to hear what you've heard at the bar though I don't know if it can beat the scanner thread for this case...

 

[SouthernMom]

Someone else posted this link first. It pulls details from over 600 child murder cases It is long, but worth taking a look at. Note that it compares serial murder cases to non-serial murder cases. The summary begins on page 81, for those of you who don't like to read too much.

If nothing else, read the summary. You may find the answer to one of your nagging questions.

Most of the victims of child abduction murder are victims of opportunity. pg 82, paragraph 4.

Over half of the child abduction murders are committed by a killer who is a total stranger to the victim. pg 81 last paragraph.

Commonly, the killers are at the initial killer-victim contact site for a legitimate reason. pg. 82, para. 4

Check out the distance relationship information on page 82. This should tell you that there was a good reason to drain the lake right away. If Maiden Lane were to be a murder site, the lake was a good place to look based on distance.

I hope and pray that this information is moot and does not pertain to this investigation at all. I hope these two sweet girls make it home safe and sound.


http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles/Another/Supporting_Law_Enforcement/Homicide_Investigation_Tracking_System_(HITS)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

 

[sreshowtime]

good question Rose
Olli might know.

I wonder if there is someone out there, that despises the family(-ies) or has some odd jealously towards someone, that they would want to 'steal' these girls as punishment, retribution, or to be a rescuer of sorts? Not really referring to a drug debt thing- something more twisted, to us, yet perfectly sane in the mind of the perp(s)
that make any sense?

 

[roseofsharon]

just wanted to jump in & ask.. did anything ever come of the blur movement, that I thought was a human, on the cctv of the girls?

Since Imo the girls could've been taken right after the cctv video and the bikes were rushed to the lake via the grassy area, this blurry figure is a POI.imo. I get that staging does seem like to much work but I figure if the perp(s) are local &/or known to the family they could'nt afford a search of that immediate area AND they wanted LE and any searching to take place a ways away from point of crime and in a place bikes would be common. And it had to be close enough for them to not be noticed being gone to long. All this while i think someone else took the girls away.imo

Ollipop thank you so much for that first hand account of the area that night! Invaluable insight. Awesome show of humanity in your fellow neighbors. It's so sad that organized searches just stopped. I'd love to have a rumor thread just to hear what you've heard at the bar though I don't know if it can beat the scanner thread for this case...

Hi Tobywong*, I must have missed this item. Sorry to ask for a repeat, but do you mean that there is a blurry figure in the cctv video from Cornbelt Auctions. Could you please direct me where to look. TIA

 

[katydid23]

I'm not crazy, though this may sound insane. I"ve mentioned this before here on WS - most people have a "me" in their family tree. The crazy old aunt who says stuff that you think is insane, then it ends up happening, and after awhile you stop doubting her because somehow she just KNOWS stuff.

Anyway, when I read your post and saw the bolded part above, my whole body lit up with a "DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER FOLKS" kind of reaction. Interesting to note, anyway.

I used to be a 10-11-12- year old girl. That's the age when boys are a big deal, and so is being shy and sneaky.. at least it was to me. I can absolutely remember riding bikes to where the cute boys were hanging out, then turning around and going back the other way. Repeatedly.

The skate park seems like a very good place for somewhat sketchy teens to hang out, based on my own teenage sons' old love of skateboarding... I never wanted him at our skate park. Lots of drugs, but thats here. Not in a wholesome city like Evansdale... (ok I don't even know anymore if that's sarcasm or not, this whole thing makes me so sad).

When my DD was 11 and 12, she was ALWAYS trying to find an excuse to hang out at the skate park. She and her friends even tried to learn to skateboard so they had a reason to be there.

It would make a lot more sense that the girls were attracted to riding by that skate park then they would be wanting to go ride around the somewhat deserted Lake.

I wonder if they got nabbed near the skate park and then some teens took their abandoned bikes and dumped them off at the lake. You would hope they would have come forward, except that the FBI drained the entire lake. I could see the kids being afraid of being blamed for that, and even worried about having to share the cost. [ my sons friends stupidly set off fireworks in their local woods area and their parents got fined for the cost of the fire dept coming out to stop the resulting fire.]

 

[MNDad]

good question Rose
Olli might know.

I wonder if there is someone out there, that despises the family(-ies) or has some odd jealously towards someone, that they would want to 'steal' these girls as punishment, retribution, or to be a rescuer of sorts? Not really referring to a drug debt thing- something more twisted, to us, yet perfectly sane in the mind of the perp(s)
that make any sense?

You could go look for a post from me hinting to the family of someone's BF not approving os someone.