IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #15

[nervous_nellie]

morning all, im a few pages behind yet...

but as im pondering the "killing for silence" theory... it has occurred to me that "use for unlimited profit" for owing money or because of money owed due to upcoming lengthy prison stint, makes more sense.

as for approaching...if i was trying to get the attention of a couple of little girls - i would just use a baby...tell them i thought my baby was sick and needed directions to the hospital...heck they might just get in the van/car with me leaving their bikes behind. i could tell them they can call their family from the hospital so they can fetch the bikes etc later ... could be on the interstate and long gone in no time at all.

i just scared my self... im up too early and its too quiet.... :what:

this however does not explain where the bikes and purse were found... one thought could be a merry band of prepubescent/teenagers pirating unclaimed wares and then dumping them in the most concealed area of the park...but the purse, i think elizabeth would have taken her purse...idk..

 

[Sunlight]

JMHO, but the killing for silence theory doesn't work for me too well. It certainly is a possibility, but...if I was considering a plea deal, because I had info that I was already willing to divulge about people, you can bet your bottom dollar that if any one of those people harmed a member or members of my family, I would tell everything I ever knew about those people ....down to the brand of tp they used...everything and more. I would make sure they were so caught and put away, and I'd personally throw away the key. So, I don't think killing or harming the family members is an effective method to prevent someone from testifying, however, I'm sure it happens, and I'm sure druggies don't think it through too well before they act in the first place. MOO

 

[nervous_nellie]

JMHO, but the killing for silence theory doesn't work for me too well. It certainly is a possibility, but...if I was considering a plea deal, because I had info that I was already willing to divulge about people, you can bet your bottom dollar that if any one of those people harmed a member or members of my family, I would tell everything I ever knew about those people ....down to the brand of tp they used...everything and more. I would make sure they were so caught and put away, and I'd personally throw away the key. So, I don't think killing or harming the family members is an effective method to prevent someone from testifying, however, I'm sure it happens, and I'm sure druggies don't think it through too well before they act in the first place. MOO

i tend to agree, however, i do think that there are crime type "syndicates" and what if dan owed money that now he wasnt going to be able to pay back by selling/making drugs? also if this group of scuz had provided an atty. to him... im sure his debt is not just forgiven, if anything he now owes more money because of the trouble he has gotten mixed up in. i would assume these shenanigans are just part and parcel of the crime biz... so as long as they have a way to recoup their money then their "cool".... way more lucrative than killing their source of potential income and silencing them at the same time.

now, i am like you, i would go after everything they've got and and id die trying. kill my family...well you can figure out the rest of that statement, lol...

 

[Eileen730]

I don 't think the FBI will reveal to the general public what their evidence is as it might compromise any case they might have against a perp. As the recent statement still says they believe their evidence shows the girls are alive, I will try to cling to this.
As for dead animals (except pigs which have a similar scent and decay pattern to humans) vs human remains scents they are different. There is almost a primal awareness that what you smell is human. Though I was able to keep my composure, a gut terror hit me the first time I smelled it and it was hidden INSIDE a home with doors closed and windows closed. It is hard to explain but it really does hit hard.
Just my experience...but then I have a very strong sense of smell...for a mere human. I know I pale in comparison to the magnificence of dogs, especially well trained ones. :moo:

What evidence could they have that tells them the girls are alive?

 

[Sunlight]

The pesky cctv timestamp(s), and the direction of travel, are the unexpected key that screws with a couple different timelines. MOO

 

[Sunlight]

What evidence could they have that tells them the girls are alive?

At the time LE made that statement, they may have had someone wired or tapped, and under surveillance. They did say they had interviewed several people of interest. That is my best guess. MOO

 

[Eileen730]

i tend to agree, however, i do think that there are crime type "syndicates" and what if dan owed money that now he wasnt going to be able to pay back by selling/making drugs? also if this group of scuz had provided an atty. to him... im sure his debt is not just forgiven, if anything he now owes more money because of the trouble he has gotten mixed up in. i would assume these shenanigans are just part and parcel of the crime biz... so as long as they have a way to recoup their money then their "cool".... way more lucrative than killing their source of potential income and silencing them at the same time.

now, i am like you, i would go after everything they've got and and id die trying. kill my family...well you can figure out the rest of that statement, lol...

Reminds me of the show BREAKING BAD!
Dads a meth dealer and mom sends her daughter away because they are threatened .


Only thing is, I can understand taking Lyric and removing her from this picture
but why Elizabeth?

 

[Sunlight]

One thought...if they have solid evidence that they are/were alive, why haven't they ruled some people out? Instead, they said everyone is suspect. Especially, the way the media was focusing for awhile. Now, there's just this eery silence. Ugh. MOO

 

[Thespyma]

What evidence could they have that tells them the girls are alive?

There are so many possible sources of evidence. They could have phone records, messages, surveillance videos (not the one released to public), anonymous tips from out of the area from someone who knows where they are, computer files, email messages, items found at the scene the day of the girls disappearance, items found long after the girls went missing. Tips from very reliable sources...I could go on and on.
I do believe that the information they do have would not be releasable until after they apprehend the perp or perps. They cannot afford to jeopardize the girls or any criminal case against perp(s). I am waiting for the FBI to retract their statement before I feel sure the girls are not ok. I have big doubts but I need to cling to this hope but the hope gets dimmer with each day...

 

[Eileen730]

There are so many possible sources of evidence. They could have phone records, messages, surveillance videos (not the one released to public), anonymous tips from out of the area from someone who knows where they are, computer files, email messages, items found at the scene the day of the girls disappearance, items found long after the girls went missing. Tips from very reliable sources...I could go on and on.
I do believe that the information they do have would not be releasable until after they apprehend the perp or perps. They cannot afford to jeopardize the girls or any criminal case against perp(s). I am waiting for the FBI to retract their statement before I feel sure the girls are not ok. I have big doubts but I need to cling to this hope but the hope gets dimmer with each day...

I think they said they are alive because they have no evidence that they are dead!

Now if a parent had them removed for safety sake because of the drugs
id think that parent would tell LE and we wouldnt be searching for them we would know where they were.

Sadly I dont think they are alive. I hope Im wrong!

 

[FrayedKnot]

Other than the one statement by FBI saying that based on evidence they felt the girls were alive, has either LE or FBI made subsequent statements reaffirming the earlier one?

I was quite hopeful after that first statement but as the weeks have passed, I am less so.

My instinct is to lift that statement out of the equation along with TG and the Carpenter's, and the whole lake scenario in general.

Of course that is JMOO.

 

[threecrazykids]

JMHO, but the killing for silence theory doesn't work for me too well. It certainly is a possibility, but...if I was considering a plea deal, because I had info that I was already willing to divulge about people, you can bet your bottom dollar that if any one of those people harmed a member or members of my family, I would tell everything I ever knew about those people ....down to the brand of tp they used...everything and more. I would make sure they were so caught and put away, and I'd personally throw away the key. So, I don't think killing or harming the family members is an effective method to prevent someone from testifying, however, I'm sure it happens, and I'm sure druggies don't think it through too well before they act in the first place. MOO

:rocker: I agree completely! I posted almost the same thing earlier! If they THREATEN abduction, then yes, it may keep someone quiet. But once the deed is done you just sealed your fate. You and ALL your buddies are going down at that point. DM is facing jail time and given his past convictions he probably is well aware that it's inevitable he's going to be there for awhile...why not take everyone down with you at that point?! You mess with me, it's one thing...you mess with my family or my kids and it's a whole new ballgame.

 

[TGIRecovered]

What evidence could they have that tells them the girls are alive?

I'll tell you why the statement that LE has evidence that the girls are alive means nothing to me.

When kids go missing, LE commonly claim that there is no evidence to indicate that the child is involuntarily missing, or no evidence that the child has been the victim of a crime. It happens in case after case. This is the standard excuse that they use to defend the lack of an immediate, all- out criminal investigation and public appeal for help. This is why we read time and again that police "responded quickly, once it was known that the child was missing involuntarily", even when they wait a week or more to isolate possible crime scenes, check the family's cell phone records, ask businesses for videos or thoroughly question possible witnesses or suspects etc.

This shows me that LE standard proceedures do not consider obvious circumstantial evidence in cases of missing kids. Even when kids disappear with nothing but the clothes on their back, no money, cell phones left behind, and girls who won't take out the trash without full make-up and hair disappear in sweats and flip-flops, leaving behind all of their toiletries, they routinely assume that kids are runaways.

I am referring to LE in general, not necessarily in this case. Local police did a good job of realizing pretty quickly that E&L were in big trouble, even though they did have to exclude simple drowning due to the proximity of the lake.

As far as I'm concerned, the FBI spokesperson could be referring to a lack of blood evidence on the bikes or purse, lack of signs of a struggle, or the fact that no bodies have been found as "evidence that these girls are still alive".

MOO all over the place.

 

[Eileen730]

:rocker: I agree completely! I posted almost the same thing earlier! If they THREATEN abduction, then yes, it may keep someone quiet. But once the deed is done you just sealed your fate. You and ALL your buddies are going down at that point. DM is facing jail time and given his past convictions he probably is well aware that it's inevitable he's going to be there for awhile...why not take everyone down with you at that point?! You mess with me, it's one thing...you mess with my family or my kids and it's a whole new ballgame.

Lyric wanted to run away not long before she went missing, what if it wasnt about the chores but because of what dad was into. What if she knew everything he was into? Has to be hard on her and im sure many kids were not allowed to associate with her because of what Mom and dad were into.
Maybe she was going to rat him out!
I do feel this entire thing has happend because of the drug situation!

JMO

 

[Eileen730]

I'll tell you why the statement that LE has evidence that the girls are alive means nothing to me.

When kids go missing, LE commonly claim that there is no evidence to indicate that the child is involuntarily missing, or no evidence that the child has been the victim of a crime. It happens in case after case. This is the standard excuse that they use to defend the lack of an immediate, all- out criminal investigation and public appeal for help. This is why we read time and again that police "responded quickly, once it was known that the child was missing involuntarily", even when they wait a week or more to isolate possible crime scenes, check the family's cell phone records, ask businesses for videos or thoroughly question possible witnesses or suspects etc.

This shows me that LE standard proceedures do not consider obvious circumstantial evidence in cases of missing kids. Even when kids disappear with nothing but the clothes on their back, no money, cell phones left behind, and girls who won't take out the trash without full make-up and hair disappear in sweats and flip-flops, leaving behind all of their toiletries, they claim that these kids are runaways.

As far as I'm concerned, LE could be referring to a lack of blood evidence on the bikes or purse, lack of signs of a struggle, or the fact that no bodies have been found as "evidence that these girls are still alive".

MOO all over the place.

Yes thats what i said they have no evidence they are dead! Soooo they say they feel they are alive!

 

[GrainneDhu]

Quite disturbing. Makes me wonder...how well do we truly ever "know" our neighbors?

I tend to doubt that one of the neighbours was responsible for Marc Allen's disappearance. Mostly because it was almost two years since Eugene Martin had disappeared and I can remember a sense of "is it going to happen again?" I think LE was primed and ready to roll, just in case.

Please keep in mind that all of the following is strictly from memory; it was before the internet was so easily accessible, so there's not much I can discover of the original media reports online.

From what I can recall of the story, LE basically ripped the entire neighbourhood apart within a couple hours of when Marc left the house. Since he had permission from his mother to visit his friend, he wasn't missed for a couple hours.

As soon as he was reported missing, LE were all over it. He didn't have a history of running away and he was only 13 years old. LE was also all over his father (in Minnesota) to make sure he hadn't been abducted for his father. No go.

If the person who abducted Marc was the same person who abducted Johnny Gosch and Eugene Martin, the perp had some slick way to get a young teenager out of the area very quickly. I think it was Eugene's case where the window was eventually narrowed down to less than 10 minutes by putting together eyewitness testimony.

It was totally baffling: now you see the kid, now you don't.

I think even modern forensics would not have helped in solving any of those three cases because there's a good possibility that the perp didn't leave anything behind that he'd touched (there's good reason to believe the perp was male in both cases).

And then it seemed to stop. At least in Des Moines but for all anyone knows, the perp may have shifted to different hunting grounds. Or maybe imprisoned for some other crime. Or died.

The only thing that is for sure and that is that three families were struck by terrible tragedy.

 

[song22]

SBM

There is one piece of information from the family that leads me to believe that DM and Lyric have a fairly close, loving relationship. And that is the fight over the chores that led to Lyric making a threat to run away.

Children of 10 whose parents are emotionally absent from their lives don't fight with those parents. They don't know them well enough to feel safe fighting with them. That Lyric felt safe enough to get mad at her father says to me that, flawed though he may be, he is enough of a presence in her life that she feels safe enough with him to show her anger with him.

I know there are exceptions to every generalisation but strictly my own impression is that DM does love his kids. Sadly, addiction has nothing to do with love.

Respectfully, I disagree with this and have a very different impression. My dad loved me. But he was sexually and physically abusive. We fought all the time. But that does not mean we had a close, loving relationship or that I felt safe with him to express my anger. It was all based on power and control and very confusing for me as a child. I knew things were wrong and I often fought back. He was often violent but also expressed love and would often be sorry for his behavior. Until he did it again.

Abusive men are often very loving, when they're not being abusive. That's part of the cycle. When I heard about the threat to runaway over a fight about "chores" a red flag went up for me. We know there is a history of intense domestic violence here. Many of us have arguments with our kids for unfinished chores. But when my dad got mad it was a whole different ballgame. I think you have to take DM's history of domestic abuse into account when you think about what kind of relationship he had with his daughter and whether it was close or not. Abusers generally have very close relationships with the abused and love them. But that's not what love really is.

I don't think Lyric ran away. I'm not saying DM had anything to do with this. JMO

 

[GrainneDhu]

Lyric wanted to run away not long before she went missing, what if it wasnt about the chores but because of what dad was into. What if she knew everything he was into? Has to be hard on her and im sure many kids were not allowed to associate with her because of what Mom and dad were into.
Maybe she was going to rat him out!
I do feel this entire thing has happend because of the drug situation!

JMO

Could be.

Then again... okay, I'm about to let my Iowa snob bias show all over the place.

We're talking Waterloo here. There are parts of Waterloo that are on a par as the roughest parts of the Quad Cities. I would honestly be surprised if MCM or DM's legal problems raised much of an eyebrow in Waterloo.

Okay, I'm turning off my Iowa snob again.

Lyric has been living with her grandma for about 5 years. In this day and age, that's not such an unusual situation for a child. I just don't see anything about her that would be an obvious target for shunning by other parents.

 

[TxLady2]

Other than the one statement by FBI saying that based on evidence they felt the girls were alive, has either LE or FBI made subsequent statements reaffirming the earlier one?

I was quite hopeful after that first statement but as the weeks have passed, I am less so.

My instinct is to lift that statement out of the equation along with TG and the Carpenter's, and the whole lake scenario in general.

Of course that is JMOO.

My thoughts too.... how long has it been since the FBI made that statement, and has there been any other statement recently that contradicted it or affirmed that is still their belief?

In a lot of cases, I hear LE saying they have no evidence of foul play and I hear them saying they are going on the premise that the child is still alive. However, it is one thing to keep the family's hope up by saying they don't have indications that the child is dead, and quite another to say they actually have evidence that the child is still alive. That's pretty specific, IMO. Not finding evidence to suggest they were killed is a far reach from stating there is evidence they are alive. IOW, the absence of evidence is not evidence OF something.

 

[janie]

Could be.

Then again... okay, I'm about to let my Iowa snob bias show all over the place.

We're talking Waterloo here. There are parts of Waterloo that are on a par as the roughest parts of the Quad Cities. I would honestly be surprised if MCM or DM's legal problems raised much of an eyebrow in Waterloo.

Okay, I'm turning off my Iowa snob again.

Lyric has been living with her grandma for about 5 years. In this day and age, that's not such an unusual situation for a child. I just don't see anything about her that would be an obvious target for shunning by other parents.

I've read your post over and over again trying to figure out what you mean when you say, Iowa snob bias." I'm not a dumb person and I know what each word means, IOWA, SNOB, BIAS, but the way you put the words together, I have no clue if your saying you are biased against Iowans, or you are an Iowa snob who is biased against certain cities, etc.? What do you mean?