IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #15

[hollyblue]

Could be.

Then again... okay, I'm about to let my Iowa snob bias show all over the place.

We're talking Waterloo here. There are parts of Waterloo that are on a par as the roughest parts of the Quad Cities. I would honestly be surprised if MCM or DM's legal problems raised much of an eyebrow in Waterloo.

Okay, I'm turning off my Iowa snob again.

Lyric has been living with her grandma for about 5 years. In this day and age, that's not such an unusual situation for a child. I just don't see anything about her that would be an obvious target for shunning by other parents.[/quote]

I don't know. While agreeing it is not the child's fault for her environment and would want my child to respect, treat her fairly...and not shun her, however, I wouldn't allow my child to be present at Lyric's house nor spent the night knowing the parent"s and sibling's background. It wasn't just grandma that lived in that house. I would allow Lyric's presence in mine and if my daughter wanted her to spend the night I probably would, but I'd have my antennas in full position. imo

 

[hollyblue]

Interesting new article


Missing Iowa cousins gone for a month: Are they victims of trafficking?

http://www.examiner.com/article/mis...e-for-a-month-are-they-victims-of-trafficking

Thank you. Here are just two off the list:

The average age of entry for children victimized by the sex trade industry is 12 years. U.S. Department of Justice


An estimated 14,500 to 17,500 foreign nationals are trafficked into the United States each year. The number of U.S. citizens trafficked within the country is even higher, with an estimated 200,000 American children at risk for trafficking into the sex industry. U.S. Department of Justice Report to Congress from Attorney General John Ashcroft on U.S. Government Efforts to Combat Trafficking in Persons


http://www.sctnow.org/contentpages....pageguid=29d295d1-5818-4e7a-bde1-f61690fa44a8

 

[otto]

Maybe. That's not how I've heard the term "bull in a china shop" used, though. I've only heard it used to mean someone who moves in an awkward, rushed manner and has a tendency to break things because of it. :moo:



:what: Now, that's interesting. Why do we always have them coming in from the Eastern side? Maybe that has something to do with LE thinking the man at Casey's on River Forest Rd. might have some information.

Sorry ... long post ...

I have a brother that I describe as a "bull in a china shop". What that means to me is that he impulsive, doesn't think things through, doesn't pay attention to detail, acts without thinking, doesn't seem to have the capacity to carefully consider all of the consequences, assumes that he has it all figured out when it seems obvious that there's no depth in his figuring ... and after he has acted, there are a multitude of unfortunate consequences. I have never associated the phrase with being clumsy.

I'm guilty of initially having the girls enter the park on the east side because I immediately assumed that they entered the trail starting at Lafayette. I was thinking last night that I still hadn't been able to reduce the facts to a theory without adding new facts.

We know they went west on Brovan and we know the bikes were at the lake, so why assume they went to the east side of the lake trail ... the simplest answer is that they went to the west side of the lake trail. I looked at sidewalks from Brovan towards the lake, as I'm assuming the girls stayed on the sidewalks if the roads were at all busy. This would have the girls riding south on River Forest Road, turning east for a block or two at Central Avenue and then south on Jones. That gets them straight to the west end of the trail.

Regarding the timeline between the camera and the cyclist, again we have a conflict (4 minutes isn't really long enough to make the trip). Suppose the cyclist is riding west and the girls are riding east, but the girls have decided that they want to get to the water for some reason - an adventure, let's say. They drop their bikes on the path, the cyclist has to swerve around them, and he continues on to the bathroom. The girls can't access the lake well enough where they dropped their bikes, so they get back on their bikes, ride to the double gate, lean their bikes against the fence and enter the shore area through the unlocked gate. Perhaps it was their intention to return the way they came (avoid the "creepy area"). Elizabeth puts her purse on the shore and they walk/explore a bit. Let's suppose someone else is in the area ... someone that is parked on Maiden Lane, perhaps someone fishing or looking for driftwood ... then they vanish.

 

[dotr]

This bit of news may or may not have a bearing on what info. is available about older cold-cases in the area.
http://thegazette.com/2012/08/14/journalist-researcher-battle-for-control-over-iowa-cold-case-data/

Journalist Jody Ewing has chronicled hundreds of bizarre and gruesome unsolved Iowa murders, but she now finds herself pondering a drier mystery: who owns the copyright to their stories?

Ewing started Iowa Cold Cases in 2005 after she wrote about Sioux City crimes and realized no agency compiled details of unsolved cases in Iowa. The nonprofit became popular, with relatives seeking answers in a loved one’s death and with journalists, and its online database expanded to 450 unsolved killings and 150 missing persons cases.

But a nasty feud between Ewing and researcher Nancy Bowers, who was the site’s co-administrator from 2010 until recently, has become a major distraction to the group and put a question mark over its future"

 

[Sunlight]

Wow, Holly, I didn't know that, reminds me of Adam Mayes, but we've not heard of any acquaintance missing that could have taken these girls. Unless they had met or already knew someone and left willingly. Kids are so trusting and Lyric already had problems, enough to where she wanted to runaway days before.

I also would love to know what their demeanor was in the video. I only heard of one girl looking like one of them being seen by a clerk and the man was asked, it was his daughter.

Where did you hear that? Where and when was that supposed to have occurred? I guess I missed that bit of info.

 

[hollyblue]

Honestly,
If someone took them because of something dad or mom was into i dont think after all this time they are still alive!

Depends on the motive. If revenge, not good. If it was someone who wanted to take the girls because they felt they were in a bad environment and thought they could give them a better life, then they wouldn't harm the girls. Sick reasoning, but they'd still be safe and alive.

Same with a sex offender!

Depends on motive again. If just wanting to sexually attack the girls for gradification. Not good. If wanting to sexually exploit the girls for profit, then they would still be alive.

I dont see a good outcome here.
How can they let the girls go they kidnapped them!

Agree, rare chance they will just let them go, but they can hopefully be found. The public really needs to be aware of the girls and make an effort to take an extra look at the people around them for any tiny strange behavior.....and the main thing is to call it in. Not to brush it off as probably nothing because it just may be the huge break LE is needing.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Wow, Holly, I didn't know that, reminds me of Adam Mayes, but we've not heard of any acquaintance missing that could have taken these girls. Unless they had met or already knew someone and left willingly. Kids are so trusting and Lyric already had problems, enough to where she wanted to runaway days before.

I also would love to know what their demeanor was in the video. I only heard of one girl looking like one of them being seen by a clerk and the man was asked, it was his daughter. I don't understand why LE doesn't show the video so anyone could identify the person, someone would have to know him.

BBM, I believe holly was using it as a hypothetical, there hasnt been any indication that the girls have been captured on video that I am aware of.

 

[otto]

This bit of news may or may not have a bearing on what info. is available about older cold-cases in the area.
http://thegazette.com/2012/08/14/journalist-researcher-battle-for-control-over-iowa-cold-case-data/

Journalist Jody Ewing has chronicled hundreds of bizarre and gruesome unsolved Iowa murders, but she now finds herself pondering a drier mystery: who owns the copyright to their stories?

Ewing started Iowa Cold Cases in 2005 after she wrote about Sioux City crimes and realized no agency compiled details of unsolved cases in Iowa. The nonprofit became popular, with relatives seeking answers in a loved one’s death and with journalists, and its online database expanded to 450 unsolved killings and 150 missing persons cases.

But a nasty feud between Ewing and researcher Nancy Bowers, who was the site’s co-administrator from 2010 until recently, has become a major distraction to the group and put a question mark over its future"

Thanks ... isn't that something! The last time I saw a feud between two co-administrators, they split the board, kept the name except for .net or .org, and pretty much everything fell apart. Ownership seems to come down to the person that pays for the site and, if it's free, the person that registered the site. Hopefully there will be transparency in the feud and the person that hopped on board late, yet wants total control, will step aside.

 

[callyn]

Sorry ... long post ...

I have a brother that I describe as a "bull in a china shop". What that means to me is that he impulsive, doesn't think things through, doesn't pay attention to detail, acts without thinking, doesn't seem to have the capacity to carefully consider all of the consequences, assumes that he has it all figured out when it seems obvious that there's no depth in his figuring ... and after he has acted, there are a multitude of unfortunate consequences. I have never associated the phrase with being clumsy.

I'm guilty of initially having the girls enter the park on the east side because I immediately assumed that they entered the trail starting at Lafayette. I was thinking last night that I still hadn't been able to reduce the facts to a theory without adding new facts.

We know they went west on Brovan and we know the bikes were at the lake, so why assume they went to the east side of the lake trail ... the simplest answer is that they went to the west side of the lake trail. I looked at sidewalks from Brovan towards the lake, as I'm assuming the girls stayed on the sidewalks if the roads were at all busy. This would have the girls riding south on River Forest Road, turning east for a block or two at Central Avenue and then south on Jones. That gets them straight to the west end of the trail.

Regarding the timeline between the camera and the cyclist, again we have a conflict (4 minutes isn't really long enough to make the trip). Suppose the cyclist is riding west and the girls are riding east, but the girls have decided that they want to get to the water for some reason - an adventure, let's say. They drop their bikes on the path, the cyclist has to swerve around them, and he continues on to the bathroom. The girls can't access the lake well enough where they dropped their bikes, so they get back on their bikes, ride to the double gate, lean their bikes against the fence and enter the shore area through the unlocked gate. Perhaps it was their intention to return the way they came (avoid the "creepy area"). Elizabeth puts her purse on the shore and they walk/explore a bit. Let's suppose someone else is in the area ... someone that is parked on Maiden Lane, perhaps someone fishing or looking for driftwood ... then they vanish.

BBM
I've only heard and used "bull in a china shop" to mean clumsy. As a bull in a china shop would be knocking things over and breaking things. I live in California, it's interesting how these sayings have such different meanings in different areas. (I suppose a bull in a china shop would be considered impulsive and not considering the consequences of his decision to enter said shop) :hills:

 

[Considering]

Wow, Holly, I didn't know that, reminds me of Adam Mayes, but we've not heard of any acquaintance missing that could have taken these girls. Unless they had met or already knew someone and left willingly. Kids are so trusting and Lyric already had problems, enough to where she wanted to runaway days before.

I also would love to know what their demeanor was in the video. I only heard of one girl looking like one of them being seen by a clerk and the man was asked, it was his daughter.

I never have read that Lyric "had problems." This seems to be an assumption that is made. A family member reported that Lyric said she wanted to run away because her father was upset with her for not doing her chores. She's ten. She got in trouble for not doing her chores. How many kids will get in trouble for not doing their chores today, think it's not fair, and say they're going to run away? We won't know because those children won't disappear next week and we won't hear about it, but it will happen. For all we know, one day Elizabeth didn't do her chores, her father got upset, and Elizabeth said she was going to run away. They both appear to be happy little girls in their pictures. Why assume that Lyric "had problems"? I've seen no evidence that she did.

 

[hambirg]

Sorry ... long post ...

I have a brother that I describe as a "bull in a china shop". What that means to me is that he impulsive, doesn't think things through, doesn't pay attention to detail, acts without thinking, doesn't seem to have the capacity to carefully consider all of the consequences, assumes that he has it all figured out when it seems obvious that there's no depth in his figuring ... and after he has acted, there are a multitude of unfortunate consequences. I have never associated the phrase with being clumsy.

I'm guilty of initially having the girls enter the park on the east side because I immediately assumed that they entered the trail starting at Lafayette. I was thinking last night that I still hadn't been able to reduce the facts to a theory without adding new facts.

We know they went west on Brovan and we know the bikes were at the lake, so why assume they went to the east side of the lake trail ... the simplest answer is that they went to the west side of the lake trail. I looked at sidewalks from Brovan towards the lake, as I'm assuming the girls stayed on the sidewalks if the roads were at all busy. This would have the girls riding south on River Forest Road, turning east for a block or two at Central Avenue and then south on Jones. That gets them straight to the west end of the trail.

Regarding the timeline between the camera and the cyclist, again we have a conflict (4 minutes isn't really long enough to make the trip). Suppose the cyclist is riding west and the girls are riding east, but the girls have decided that they want to get to the water for some reason - an adventure, let's say. They drop their bikes on the path, the cyclist has to swerve around them, and he continues on to the bathroom. The girls can't access the lake well enough where they dropped their bikes, so they get back on their bikes, ride to the double gate, lean their bikes against the fence and enter the shore area through the unlocked gate. Perhaps it was their intention to return the way they came (avoid the "creepy area"). Elizabeth puts her purse on the shore and they walk/explore a bit. Let's suppose someone else is in the area ... someone that is parked on Maiden Lane, perhaps someone fishing or looking for driftwood ... then they vanish.

This is what makes the most sense to me. The timeline just doesn't seem to work and the most logical explanation, to me, is that TG saw the bikes before the abduction.

 

[Reverie]

this interview bothers me to no end!

WHY is no one crying or upset that 2 little girls are missing

I have not seen one person weep they all talk tooo much and bla bla blA they are happy
Is it just me?

It is not just you. This family does not seem stressed at all. Not one little bit.

 

[winterrose]

I never have read that Lyric "had problems." This seems to be an assumption that is made. A family member reported that Lyric said she wanted to run away because her father was upset with her for not doing her chores. She's ten. She got in trouble for not doing her chores. How many kids will get in trouble for not doing their chores today, think it's not fair, and say they're going to run away? We won't know because those children won't disappear next week and we won't hear about it, but it will happen. For all we know, one day Elizabeth didn't do her chores, her father got upset, and Elizabeth said she was going to run away. They both appear to be happy little girls in their pictures. Why assume that Lyric "had problems"? I've seen no evidence that she did.

Her grandmother had custody, parents in and out of jail, so I assume her wanting to run away could be considered a small problem, but I guess her life was normal to her. You are right though, in her pictures she does appear happy, as most kids do.

 

[cindysue]

Might there have been a ransom type note found in Elizabeth's purse? Just speculation of course. LE would certainly keep this quiet if it would keep the girls safe.

They prob wouldn't have spent so much time draining the lake looking for the girls there if they found a note like that

 

[winterrose]

BBM, I believe holly was using it as a hypothetical, there hasnt been any indication that the girls have been captured on video that I am aware of.

Oh, I see that now, I reread, she does mean hypothetical, thought I missed that sighting.

 

[otto]

BBM
I've only heard and used "bull in a china shop" to mean clumsy. As a bull in a china shop would be knocking things over and breaking things. I live in California, it's interesting how these sayings have such different meanings in different areas. (I suppose a bull in a china shop would be considered impulsive and not considering the consequences of his decision to enter said shop) :hills:

Within context, the grandmother is being asked to describe the two girls. She doesn't seem to be talking about Lyric being clumsy or awkward ... it's more like she is describing Lyric as fearlessly making decisions without thinking them through.

Lizzie: "chatter, chatter, chatter ... she's so loving and bubbly and ..."
Lyric: "... would definitely be the leader, for one she's older, she has no fear, she's the bull in the china shop, to get lost in the woods so what, let go this direction and we're going, and we'll see where we come out on the other end, if that doesn't work, we'll turn around, we'll go a different direction"

time: 6:21
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-816543

 

[otto]

I never have read that Lyric "had problems." This seems to be an assumption that is made. A family member reported that Lyric said she wanted to run away because her father was upset with her for not doing her chores. She's ten. She got in trouble for not doing her chores. How many kids will get in trouble for not doing their chores today, think it's not fair, and say they're going to run away? We won't know because those children won't disappear next week and we won't hear about it, but it will happen. For all we know, one day Elizabeth didn't do her chores, her father got upset, and Elizabeth said she was going to run away. They both appear to be happy little girls in their pictures. Why assume that Lyric "had problems"? I've seen no evidence that she did.

Lyric's grandmother describes them as normal, happy children that liked and did all the normal things that 10 year old girls do. It seems that they both had close relationships with their own, and each other's, grandmothers ... kind of like being raised by an extended family. It seems like a healthy family situation aside from the parent's substance abuse problems ... but even with that, it seems like the grandmothers stepped in to help raise the children.

 

[otto]

This is what makes the most sense to me. The timeline just doesn't seem to work and the most logical explanation, to me, is that TG saw the bikes before the abduction.

I've certainly jumped around with my theory, but if the cyclist really did see the bikes and we can't place a blind curve, or the photos of the cyclist talking with police, at the double gate, then it's quite possible he saw the bikes at another location on the trail. It would be rather unusual for there to be two sets of children that left their bikes on the trail that day, so it was most likely one set of children.

If we're working with cell phone tiime, the video was taken at 12:19 and the latest the cyclist saw the bikes would be at 12:25. That leave 4-6 minutes, which is perhaps enough time for the girls to ride immediately south from Brovan and drop their bikes somewhere on the west end of the trail ... it's still a tight timeline. However, if the girls dropped their bikes, explored, then rode them further down the trail, that explains the "on the path" and "leaning on the fence" as well.

 

[Reverie]

Lyric's grandmother describes them as normal, happy children that liked and did all the normal things that 10 year old girls do. It seems that they both had close relationships with their own, and each other's, grandmothers ... kind of like being raised by an extended family. It seems like a healthy family situation aside from the parent's substance abuse problems ... but even with that, it seems like the grandmothers stepped in to help raise the children.

Closer to the end of the video, note Grandma's face as she describes how the girls played together 'every day'. She says that they would come over and 'clean'. Immediately after she says clean, her mien changes....as though maybe she feels guilty about something. A Freudian slip, perhaps? Then she regains her composure and changes the subject.

I just think it is interesting.

 

[otto]

It is not just you. This family does not seem stressed at all. Not one little bit.

Lyric's grandmother clearly was looking at all possibilities and trying to eliminate those that didn't make sense. When she's asked to describe the girls, she has no problem describing their personalities and it's very clear to me that she's struggling to keep her mind focused so that she doesn't completely break down. I suspect that they are all doing their best to stay strong for each other. The grandmothers have to stay strong for their children, their children have to stay strong for the girl's siblings. It can't be easy for any of them, but it's not helpful if they fall apart while giving information to the media during a search for the children.

Think about cases where we know the family is hiding the facts versus terrified for the children. I'm reminded of Cayley Anthony's grandmother weilding a hammer and threatening people that were looking for answers.