IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #16

[otto]

I've read it described as a back pack.

Maybe it was one of those small backpack convertible type purses? That had a carry handle as well? I seem to recall my daughter having something like that.

:dunno:

Every article I've read, from the beginning, mentions a purse and a cell phone.

July 15: "Police discovered the girls' bikes and Collins' purse and cell phone near Meyers Lake approximately four hours later."

http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...volunteers-search-elizabeth-collins-iowa-lake

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think the fact that they were looking for the white van along River Forest Rd illustrates that they are looking for a white van that may have gone along River Forest Rd...they know what type of vehicle they are looking for...surprise, creepers typical choice of transport...a white van.

:moo:

 

[MotherOcean]

Yes it could, but I assume that LE has checked them, the paddleboat and their property out. They did willingly come forward and by doing so subjected themselves to a possible search. I just can't picture someone grabbing two girls using a paddleboat. Yes it could be used as a lure, but no matter where on the shorline their destination was, can you picture someone paddling like a bat of hell trying to get there? In my opinion anyone who would choose a paddle boat as the escape vehicle of choice wouldn't be smart enough to elude all of us for this long.

I don't think the paddleboater is an unnamed suspect. I think the paddleboater was either reported by someone who was at the lake sometime that day and LE wants to validate that person's testimony or just wanted to be sure they had talked to everyone who was on the lake that day. If he has an active role in the abduction I think he was a "look out". A paddleboater could have had his eye on the parking lot and surrounding areas as the abduction took place. Depending on how the girls entered the lake area, he may have been able to alert the abductor that they were coming his/her/their way. I doubt that's the case but as I find myself saying more and more lately... it could be.

 

[cindersoot]

I think the fact that they were looking for the white van along River Forest Rd illustrates that they are looking for a white van that may have gone along River Forest Rd...they know what type of vehicle they are looking for...surprise, creepers typical choice of transport...a white van.

:moo:

When were they looking for a white van along forest road?

 

[Bootsctr]

I've read it described as a back pack.

Maybe it was one of those small backpack convertible type purses? That had a carry handle as well? I seem to recall my daughter having something like that.

:dunno:

Only thing I can remember is I thought I read it was purple and it looked like it had just been set down.... maybe TB said that because the contents were not strewn about and the straps were intact not broken like they could have been if there was a struggle.

 

[cindersoot]

Only thing I can remember is I thought I read it was purple and it looked like it had just been set down.... maybe TB said that because the contents were not strewn about and the straps were intact not broken like they could have been if there was a struggle.

Saphire Steel is right, I heard backpack also but can't remember where.

 

[cindersoot]

Every article I've read, from the beginning, mentions a purse and a cell phone.

July 15: "Police discovered the girls' bikes and Collins' purse and cell phone near Meyers Lake approximately four hours later."

http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...volunteers-search-elizabeth-collins-iowa-lake

I don't think it was an article, I think the sheriff said it.

 

[Bootsctr]

snipped by me --

I can't believe we've been posting and hashing for over a month and I have never read anyone ask about helmets!! I didn't even think about helmets!! And I never let my kids ride without helmets. This is why it's so great when new people come alongside us and participate in this discussion.

My 13 year old son is about 5'3" and weighs 140 pounds. He is HUGE, not overweight huge because he is beginning to look like a young man and he isn't really flabby. But, he is a big kid for his age and it's hard for me to imagine that Lyric was 145 pounds, but I guess it's possible. I think it's likely someone would think she is older than ten.



Now I'll go back and find Cindersoot's thread. I'm catching up from over most of today.

Never thought about helmets either. But thinking back at the video, even though it was fast and I could not tell if it was the girls or not, I don't remember it looking like there were helmets. Could definitely be wrong though. :what:

 

[nikb]

I just have a strong feeling that it came off in a struggle.

I did too initially but a few things make me doubt that. There's this article, which is the only one I can find where the condition/position of the purse is mentioned:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/16/ijvm.01.html

KERA MASHEK, REPORTER, KWWL: We have been told that the bikes were laying very neatly, just like any child that might get off their bike and go for a walk. They were just sitting right there along the lake side like any other ordinary day, nothing really awry with that. And the purse was also just kind of sat down -- not like it was thrown around or that they would, you know, been involved in a struggle of any kind. ​

And there's also the point that one of the locals here made about the height of the fence - the purse would almost certainly have landed in the water if thrown over the fence, unless someone climbed the fence and dropped it, or Elizabeth set it down. Or maybe they tossed it nearly straight up and got lucky, but I think the phone would've fallen out. That's not to say there wasn't a struggle, I definitely have lost a lot of confidence in the details of MSM reporting over the last few weeks, but I thought it was important that they were so specific in saying it was "sat down" and not "involved in a struggle of any kind."

 

[nikb]

On another note, looking for the purse info lead me to another interesting article/thought (BBM): http://wcfcourier.com/news/article_18411a90-cd32-11e1-a656-0019bb2963f4.html

The girls’ bicycles and a purse were found on a trail behind Meyers Lake on Friday, and on Tuesday residents streamed into the adjacent park to watch as the water receded as part of a drawdown that is part of search operations.​

How can you be "behind" a lake when a trail goes all the way around it? I'm sure I'm reading too much into it, it just struck me as strange to describe it that way. Behind relative to what? The auction house, Collins home, main entrance to the trail, the news studio...? It was described that the bikes were on the "South/Southest" part of the lake... does that fit with what we know about the location and gates? It seems to, I just wanted to get other thoughts.

 

[Thinkzerz]

Saphire Steel is right, I heard backpack also but can't remember where.

yes i heard that too. Also you got me thinking about those helmets. I cant believe we never thought about this.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Fascinating! So the fox releases a scent that goes over the hounds heads and then the humans can smell that. Does that throw the hounds off, make them think they have lost track of the fox? I guess the hunters then have to become the trackers?

You got it.

Fox smell musky, a little like skunk but without the unpleasant pungency. Hard to describe.

For whatever reason, scent that rises into the air like that doesn't seem to last anywhere near as long as scent on the ground does. After about 12 hours or so, it would be very unusual to find air scent in Iowa. I don't know if the same is true in more humid areas such as sub-tropical parts of Florida.

So, the point of all this is that if someone had carried the bicycles to the spot where they were found on Friday, any air scent from the bicycles would have dissipated by Tuesday when the Bloodhounds were put to work.

What the Bloodhounds most probably found was scent on the ground.

 

[callyn]

yes i heard that too. Also you got me thinking about those helmets. I cant believe we never thought about this.

I think it was brought up awhile ago and decided that had they been wearing helmets, that would have been in the description of clothing for sure.

 

[Bootsctr]

There are a lot of trucks there too ... semi cabs. That may explain why police were looking at vans that travelled along River Forest Road.

If the bikes were staged and dogs track from oldest to most recent (hope I got that right), then perhaps the dogs should start tracking at the Collins home or at Maiden Lane.

If it was a delivery van from somewhere who made deliveries often to the area and ate at Lottie's Lounge when he came to Evansdale and the girls frequented that area, he certainly would have been aware of the girls and could have even watched them from the parking lot in the vehicle without drawing attention to himself.

If he came from quite a distance he possibly was familiar with Meyers Lake and might have possibly used the area to nap before heading back to his destination. He knows he needs to get rid of the bikes and knows if he plants them by the lake, the lake will be searched thoroughly because drowning will be everyone's first thoughts giving him plenty of time to get far away from the area. He had thought about this for a while and knew it was only a matter of time.

Crime of opportunity and only a little forethought.

 

[otto]

I think the fact that they were looking for the white van along River Forest Rd illustrates that they are looking for a white van that may have gone along River Forest Rd...they know what type of vehicle they are looking for...surprise, creepers typical choice of transport...a white van.

:moo:

I think that investigators may be looking at traffic, vans and vehicles of any color, that may have been in the parking lot on Brovan.

 

[GrainneDhu]

There are a lot of trucks there too ... semi cabs. That may explain why police were looking at vans that travelled along River Forest Road.

If the bikes were staged and dogs track from oldest to most recent (hope I got that right), then perhaps the dogs should start tracking at the Collins home or at Maiden Lane.

You are correct about tracking scent from oldest to newest.

We don't know where they set the dogs tracking. They may have tried them on Brovan where the girls were last seen. I seem to recall one witness account saying the dogs went into that patch of woods around Maiden Lane but I don't have a cite for it right now.

Environmental conditions contribute to how long scent sticks around. Moist, cool-ish ground (say about 55 F) is really good at holding scent. Pavement is not so good and while some dogs can follow a subject in a car, it's hit and miss. It depends on how airtight the vehicle is, whether the vents were open to outside air or whether they were set on recirculate, etc.

Plus, gasoline fumes tend to kill a dog's ability to scent. When transporting a dog by car, handlers get the dog out and walk them around for a bit to let the dog stretch their muscles and get any possible gas fumes out of their nose.

At this point, after a month, it might be worth a try to see if a dog could find the girls' tracks from Brovan but I wouldn't bet on the dog's success. The heat of the last month, the pavement, the traffic overlaying any track from the girls would all be against a dog successfully tracking.

 

[katydid23]

I have a possible 'paddleboat' scenario:

Some perps are hanging out at an 'empty' house, getting high, watching ...etc.

They 'borrow' a paddleboat from a neighbor and go out on the lake. They see 2 little girls throwing rocks into the water. They talk to each other for a bit, and then ask the girls if they want to take a ride.

Sure they do. So the perps say " come back in 15 minutes and just park your bikes on the trail and meet us on the jetty over there...

Nobody would ever actually take the girls on the boat or make their escape on the boat at all. They would just 'promise' the girls a ride. They would lure them with a ride, but never get that far.

 

[MotherOcean]

Yes, thats what I read, a backpack. Thanks

I watched a video in which the reporter said it was a "bag type" purse.

 

[foxbluff]

Sorry, I don't know the question regarding if the girls were wearing helmets. I suspect not.

I have a young cousin. She just turned 13 a month ago. She looks like she could be 18 years old. Worry about her a lot. I did think Lyric looked large for her age in her recent pictures and an early bloomer. Elizabeth looked small. From a distance, I imagined side by side from a distance someone could have mistaken Elizabeth for an adult.

Thank you, Bootsctr. Yes, they seem to grow up entirely too quickly these days. Even if LC wasn't wearing the dangling earrings while biking, I do believe I would have guessed them to be sisters ... older and younger sisters. In other words, had I seen them that day, I wouldn't have called police to let them know I had seen the little missing girls that day. yikes!

 

[otto]

Saphire Steel is right, I heard backpack also but can't remember where.

Police stated early on that a purse and cell phone were found 10 feet east of the bikes, two feet away from the fence. "Purse" may have morphed into "backpack" during the last 4 weeks, but it was described as a purse.