IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #17

[Confusion]

Sorry ... I didn't understand that when you said:

"Add in Mr G, Mr C and Mr P, also Mr C's wife, and Mr G's daughter, and there are just too many (in my mind) CREDIBLE witnesses to the girls being at (or at least very nearby) that lake."

... that it was your opinion that there were too many credible witnesses placing the girls at the lake. In fact, investigators have said repeatedly, most recently on August 3, that there are no witnesses placing the girls anywhere after the sighting behind the Auction Shop at 12:19 PM. I'm wondering on what you base your opinion?

So you don't believe the C's or the mystery man saw them or that TG saw their bikes?

 

[nikb]

Something I wondered both times I watched it was - if someone had gone by with a fairly young child, would they have reacted differently. Would the kid/s realize something was wrong?

I also think it's ironic that those who did stop to help are the same guys many people would be afraid to have around their children. I was not only glad that someone stopped to help, but also that it was those two in particular. With enough views, maybe it will help to fight some of those harmful stereotypes.

I thought about both things too. The kid was only 7 so we're not talking about an angry/defiant teenager. It did seem like the younger people walking by at least paid a little more attention to it, particularly thinking about the boy who looked like maybe a teen waiting with someone else (Dad? friend?) for the crosswalk light

About the guys who stopped, I agree completely! I hope the story does help, on multiple fronts.

ETA: oops I see that I misunderstood what you meant. I do wonder if someone walking by with a young child would've reacted differently.

 

[otto]

Apologies and thank you, my mistake. :blushing:

I'm equally confused. The FBI and investigators have said that no one places the girls anywhere after 12:19. If there are links where credible witnesses claim they saw the girls at the lake, I too would like to read about it.

 

[otto]

So you don't believe the C's or the mystery man saw them or that TG saw their bikes?

It's not really about what I believe, in my opinion, but more about what can be verified as true. The point in question iis whether the girls were at the lake. If there were credible witnesses, police would not say that there are no witnesses.

 

[Jules71]

Did a reporter ever ask if the girls were seen on the cctv before the time in the video they released? If the girls left the Collins house and went right (east) they would not be on video as they were leaving. If you take TG's sighting out of the timeline (for whatever reason) and they were heading home but went past the house they would be on video then. I wish we could find out what the girls were doing from 11:30 - 12:15.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sunlight]

I believe that all of the witnesses are credible when they say they may have seen the girls and/or the bikes. I think there is a glitch in the timeline though that has yet to be unraveled to make total sense. MOO

 

[SapphireSteel]

Yes please. I would like to see links supporting the statement regarding credible witnesses placing the girls at the lake.

Reposting for clarity -

Please understand I am not snarking at you, I had absolutely considered the abduction taking place away from the lake...it still may have...but this would mean specifically discounting Mr G's sighting.

I get strong indications that this witness is very solid. It appears I am alone in this on this forum. I do not believe for one second he "confabulated" the sighting, made it up, embroidered it, got his times or days wrong.

I do not believe it was a stranger abduction, at all. Never have. I believe the girls knew their abductor.

Add in Mr G, Mr C and Mr P, also Mr C's wife, and Mr G's daughter, and there are just too many (in my mind) CREDIBLE witnesses to the girls being at (or at least very nearby) that lake.

The dogs tracking their scent into the wooded area tends to confirm this.

All opinion only.


I actually said AT or NEARBY that lake....not definitely AT THE LAKE.

Credible witnesses being - Mr Gamerdinger who saw the bikes, his daughter who confirms the timing as he spoke to her on the phone at the time, Mr Carpenter who lives in Lake Ave (very nearby) who saw the girls go past, his wife who confirms he saw the girls go past, Mr P who has stated he cannot see how they got "that far in 8 minutes" thereby implying (to me at least) that LE have suggested they did indeed go that far in 8 minutes.

I can post links to all of the above if required but this is common knowledge.

My point is that these CREDIBLE individuals all had something to say regarding the girls, the bikes, and the timing.

My point was ALSO MY OPINION ONLY.

 

[Confusion]

The point is that the girls were at the lake. If there were credible witnesses, police would not say that there are no witnesses.

I guess maybe I've been misreading a lot lately (there are a lot of things that would surprise me more :blushing, but I thought they said there were no confirmed sightings, not that the witnesses weren't credible. I really don't know how they'd confirm it, unless others saw the same thing at the same time. It really doesn't sound like anyone would be a confirmed witness unless they happened to be recording something with their phone or a camera (where were all of those shutterbugs that day?!)

 

[cluciano63]

as someone who works with this age group I can tell you that MOST girls of this age are not interested in boys beyond thinking they are "cute" and being smitten by them.....HOWEVER, I have met several, usually coming from disfunctional homes, with older siblings and a lack of parental care, that are VERY interested and to a point that becomes provocative....it is disturbing, very disturbing for a 10 yr. old.

Also...while boy their own age seem goofy and dumb to many girls...there is a lure about older boys...if they pay them attention.

 

[Sunlight]

Reposting for clarity -

Please understand I am not snarking at you, I had absolutely considered the abduction taking place away from the lake...it still may have...but this would mean specifically discounting Mr G's sighting.

I get strong indications that this witness is very solid. It appears I am alone in this on this forum. I do not believe for one second he "confabulated" the sighting, made it up, embroidered it, got his times or days wrong.

I do not believe it was a stranger abduction, at all. Never have. I believe the girls knew their abductor.

Add in Mr G, Mr C and Mr P, also Mr C's wife, and Mr G's daughter, and there are just too many (in my mind) CREDIBLE witnesses to the girls being at (or at least very nearby) that lake.

The dogs tracking their scent into the wooded area tends to confirm this.

All opinion only.


I actually said AT or NEARBY that lake....not definitely AT THE LAKE.

Credible witnesses being - Mr Gamerdinger who saw the bikes, his daughter who confirms the timing as he spoke to her on the phone at the time, Mr Carpenter who lives in Lake Ave (very nearby) who saw the girls go past, his wife who confirms he saw the girls go past, Mr P who has stated he cannot see how they got "that far in 8 minutes" thereby implying (to me at least) that LE have suggested they did indeed go that far in 8 minutes.

I can post links to all of the above if required but this is common knowledge.

My point is that these CREDIBLE individuals all had something to say regarding the girls, the bikes, and the timing.

My point was ALSO MY OPINION ONLY.

8 minutes in relation to what? MOO

 

[ShyViolet]

I am not actually questioning Mr G or Mr C at the moment.

I am questioning the statement that there were three additional witnesses placing the girls at or near the lake that day. It is news to me, and I would like to read about it.

 

[Confusion]

as someone who works with this age group I can tell you that MOST girls of this age are not interested in boys beyond thinking they are "cute" and being smitten by them.....HOWEVER, I have met several, usually coming from disfunctional homes, with older siblings and a lack of parental care, that are VERY interested and to a point that becomes provocative....it is disturbing, very disturbing for a 10 yr. old.

BBM

Those things and/or those who were molested at a young age. I agree with your description of how most girls that age feel about boys. Those I know are in love with actors or singers, or may have a crush on some boy they know a bit, but would be too embarrassed to actually meet one of them and really wouldn't have interest in much more than staring at them from afar.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

We are on the same page.

This level of planning indicates the perp was known to the girls.

:cow:

What planning if I may ask?

Most kidnapping cases such as this one are crimes of opportunity. Especially ones that happen in broad daylight. I dont think a lot of planning had to go into kidnapping the children. By that I mean planning for a day or more.

All the perp had to do is see the two young girls alone with no one around them. The seized opportunity worked because no one saw or heard a thing... showing that the girls were not around anyone else other than the predator at the time of the kidnapping.

I dont think they were kidnapped at the lake. The back of the stores is very remote and eerie imo and looks very isolated. I dont think anyone that may have lived around the back of the stores would even notice girls coming by on bikes and they would have to be out there at the exact same time the girls were kidnapped anyway. Unless it is someone who lives in that area then we know no one else saw a thing. Not even them riding their bikes behind the stores.

I just think if it was someone known to the girls even remotely LE would have connected it by now.

IMO

 

[iamnotagolem]

Are there still searches being done for the girls?

I wonder what the general opinion is in the town (and on this forum) of whether the girls are alive or not. It would definitely dictate search areas, I would think.

I used to remain so optimistic when kids went missing, then as days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, months turn in years....I've come to realize that there are precious few children that come home. At least in cases like this. It makes me so sad. So sad for these girls, so sad for their families, so sad for their community.

 

[nikb]

8 minutes in relation to what? MOO

That's a great question. I believe the 8 minutes is in relation to the time stamp on the CCTV which showed the girls riding by and the time on his watch, but what else was in relation to those 8 minutes?

 

[otto]

Reposting for clarity -

Please understand I am not snarking at you, I had absolutely considered the abduction taking place away from the lake...it still may have...but this would mean specifically discounting Mr G's sighting.

I get strong indications that this witness is very solid. It appears I am alone in this on this forum. I do not believe for one second he "confabulated" the sighting, made it up, embroidered it, got his times or days wrong.

I do not believe it was a stranger abduction, at all. Never have. I believe the girls knew their abductor.

Add in Mr G, Mr C and Mr P, also Mr C's wife, and Mr G's daughter, and there are just too many (in my mind) CREDIBLE witnesses to the girls being at (or at least very nearby) that lake.

The dogs tracking their scent into the wooded area tends to confirm this.

All opinion only.


I actually said AT or NEARBY that lake....not definitely AT THE LAKE.

Credible witnesses being - Mr Gamerdinger who saw the bikes, his daughter who confirms the timing as he spoke to her on the phone at the time, Mr Carpenter who lives in Lake Ave (very nearby) who saw the girls go past, his wife who confirms he saw the girls go past, Mr P who has stated he cannot see how they got "that far in 8 minutes" thereby implying (to me at least) that LE have suggested they did indeed go that far in 8 minutes.

I can post links to all of the above if required but this is common knowledge.

My point is that these CREDIBLE individuals all had something to say regarding the girls, the bikes, and the timing.

My point was ALSO MY OPINION ONLY.

The cyclist, Mr G, saw two bikes at 12:20. The girls were 1.5 miles away at 12:19, so it doesn't seem credible that the bikes belonged to the girls, and very definitely there is no confirmation that the girls were at the lake. His daughter wasn't there so it doesn't matter what she says.

The lawn watering man, Mr C, claims that he saw a girl, between noon and 3, that rides past his house every evening, a girl that talks to many people on the street. He has said that he thinks that girl was Elizabeth. This has not been publicly confirmed by any of the neighbors. Mr C was also watering his lawn after it had rained all night and through the morning. It seems rather odd to be watering his lawn as soon as the rain stopped. Perhaps he's mistaken about the day and the girl. His wife was not home, so it doesn't matter what she says.

Those two people have given statements to the media, but neither statement has been officially recognized as confirmation that the girls were at, or near, the lake.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I am not actually questioning Mr G or Mr C at the moment.

I am questioning the statement that there were three additional witnesses placing the girls at or near the lake that day. It is news to me, and I would like to read about it.

Please show me where I stated that the girls themselves were seen at the lake?

I realise that I should have said "sighting of the girls NEAR the lake, and sighting of the BIKES AT THE LAKE".

I did not, my error...I would have been more precise if I had realised how my post would be read.

 

[iamnotagolem]

As to whether or not Lyric was into boys or not, I believe a large part of it depends on parents. I had a friend growing up who was very into boys at age 10 but her mom had always pushed her towards boys, starting at 3 years old she always had a "boyfriend" same with her little brother and sister.

On the other hand, I was not into boys, sure during my teens I thought boys were cute and didn't mind getting attention from them, but I had plans, I had a life I wanted to live and I didn't start dating until I was 25. I knew I didn't want to get married until I had done certain things and so I didn't date until I was ready to get married.

 

[otto]

That's a great question. I believe the 8 minutes is in relation to the time stamp on the CCTV which showed the girls riding by and the time on his watch, but what else was in relation to those 8 minutes?

12:19 - girls seen behind the Auction Shop
12:27 - the cyclist called his daughter

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The cyclist, Mr G, saw two bikes at 12:20. The girls were 1.5 miles away at 12:19, so it doesn't seem credible that the bikes belonged to the girls, and very definitely there is no confirmation that the girls were at the lake. His daughter wasn't there so it doesn't matter what she says.

The lawn watering man, Mr C, claims that he saw a girl, between noon and 3, that rides past his house every evening, a girl that talks to many people on the street. He has said that he thinks that girl was Elizabeth. This has not been publicly confirmed by any of the neighbors. Mr C was also watering his lawn after it had rained all night and through the morning. It seems rather odd to be watering his lawn as soon as the rain stopped. Perhaps he's mistaken about the day and the girl. His wife was not home, so it doesn't matter what she says.

Those two people have given statements to the media, but neither statement has been officially recognized as confirmation that the girls were at, or near, the lake.

It really seems to me that LE is not finding either sighting credible.

They seem to be going by the last time they were seen is when they were riding their bikes behind the stores when it was captured on video.