IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #17

[CN2Souls]

You too and your song vids are priceless. Lololol

Music to wake up and drink Coffee.


Can someone Help me remember when DanM next court date is?

 

[goaskalice]

Just thinking ... wondering

Great map thank you. I always wondered if they were close to a freeway. I heard on the news last week that there is a prostitution ring in Ohio with girls as young as 11. You never know. Were they seen from the highway? Was it a crime of opportunity? God bless those girls. Deb

 

[otto]

(I am having Font issues... Sorry)

ANYHOW...........

I can't seem to find anywhere that the FBI or LE said the dogs tracked the scent to the waters edge...

Only that the dogs tracked to bikes.

Only thing I can find is the family has stating they tracked to the waters edge and to the woods.

There was a link for FBI Breault stating that the dogs tracked to the lake. Family members said the dogs tracked to the wooded area. It's ambiguous in the sense that "to the lake" could mean 4 feet from the gate to the shore, or around the fence through the wooded area towards the lake,

IF the dogs started tracking at the bikes and the bikes were the last known connection with the girls ... and dogs track from oldest to most recent ... so they tracked from the bikes to the lake. Does that mean around the end of the fence, into the wooded area and towards the lake, where the dogs lost the scent?

I'll look for a link later today ... but I'm pretty sure that Breault said that the dogs tracked to the lake ... but ... it's ambiguous.

 

[GrainneDhu]

great map!
The area you've arrowed where the bikes and purse were found....I found that area interesting in another map and asked OPop if that area would have the girls more or less cornered. He said no. It sure looks to me like the girls could have been cornered there if they were abducted there.
Why haven't they been found? lease:

Anywhere a bicyclist goes where the freedom of movement is limited can be cornered. A ten foot wide trail with a fence on either side would make it so easy to catch a bicyclist that I'm betting even I could do it and I have to use a walker to move! I'm not that mobile but close to 30 years experience of training dogs has given me a good sense of timing.

The obstacle confining a bicyclist doesn't even have to be as large as a fence. A bicyclist riding parallel to a street curb is often just as trapped by someone pulling up alongside unless they've given themselves experience in horsing a bicycle into a sideways jump up a curb (which would be very few bicyclists).

 

[TxLady2]

LOL I'd kill for a snuggy.

No a woolly jumper is a sweater/cardigan.

The temperature here right now is 11c which works out to be 52 degrees...the coldest day I can remember.

I've got a snuggie I can send you, I hate the thing.
52 degrees???? In Texas, that's just balmy... sweater weather, but not cold enough to wear a coat.

 

[cindersoot]

I has some time yesterday to watch utube videos when the case was young, (because I was in the naughty chair) and Missy said the dogs tracked the girls scent to the waters edge.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Question?

Dog Handlers and Trainers and Trackers. Or anyone who may know.

We here at our Sheriff’s department had a case where the dog tracked to a spot and signaled they had picked up the victims scent near a water hose.

But later to find out........

The perpetrator had not brought the victim to the hose but had gone alone to the hose to wash off his face and hands after abducting the victim.

Our K9 trainers said this is common, that he was shedding the victims transfer skin cells and hair and scent that had gotten on him during the struggle and carrying of the victim…

Have any of you Dog Handlers and Trainers and Trackers hear of this?

Okay, first of all, I may not be understanding you because scent dog people use the word "tracking" differently than most people use it.

To a scent dog person, tracking is only what a dog does when it is actively following a targeted being. Since this is about following a human, that's what I'll write about (rather than about fox, coyote, bear, mountain lion, raccoon, rabbit, pheasant, quail, etc). A dog that is looking for a scent is casting. When a dog first finds the scent, they indicate.

It is unlikely to me that the dog tracked the perpetrator to the hose end unless he kicked the victim a lot. Skin rafts that touch a surface either fall off again fairly quickly or they get stuck in place.

What is highly likely is that the dog was casting about the area for the victim's scent and discovered it at the end of the hose where the perp handled it and used water to wash with. The action of washing would wash a bunch of those stray skin rafts off. Actively rubbing (by handling the hose) and washing (water running over the stray skin rafts) will certainly do it.

Interpreting the dog's behaviour involves the use of logic.

In another case, Sierra LaMar, the perp placed her purse next to a disused building full of stuff people had apparently thrown away. They way they knew that was because as soon as the purse was found, LE brought tracking dogs out to the location and asked them to track. The dogs' behaviour indicated that the purse was indeed Sierra's purse (no doubt about that anyway) but her scent went nowhere.

Now, it could have been dropped by Sierra herself from a hovercraft or beamed into that location by aliens but that's highly unlikely. The most likely explanation is that someone else, the perp, placed the purse there when Sierra herself was not present.

It's also necessary for someone observing a scent dog to be familiar with that particular dog. Some dogs have very different behaviour when they are casting from when they are tracking; scenthounds were bred for this, they were bred for the instinct to give voice while on the track, so a silent scenthound is one that is still looking for the track. Some dogs really don't look that different unless you see the instant the dog catches the scent and says via their behaviour "checking... checking... OH! here it is! tracking... tracking... tracking..." It's that instant of "OH! here it is!" that tells the difference.

Also, some scenthounds whine to themselves when they are casting but when they indicate and start tracking they give voice. Just because a scenthound is making noise doesn't mean they are on the track.

Man, I would so love to be riding a Thoroughbred listening to the music of 50 or 60 Foxhounds on the scent... Even if I couldn't be in the field and was restricted to the hilltoppers, I'd love it (but I really wanna be in the field and fly <G>).

 

[CN2Souls]

What is highly likely is that the dog was casting about the area for the victim's scent and discovered it at the end of the hose where the perp handled it and used water to wash with. The action of washing would wash a bunch of those stray skin rafts off. Actively rubbing (by handling the hose) and washing (water running over the stray skin rafts) will certainly do it.

Respectfully shortened for length and space


So, in conclusion, A perpetrator can abduct a person and maybe wrestle with them as they are trying to restrain them and carry them to where ever they are bringing them, and if the sweat, hair follicles and dead skin cells get on the perpetrator clothing. The perpetrator can than go to another location and if he/she wash off their hands or shakes out their clothing it will leave scent of the victim.


And what would this have to do with this case you might ask....?

What IF the perpetrator Grabbed the girls at the beginning of the trail, wrestled with them as they were putting them in a vehicle and restraining them. Then walked the bikes to the gate and dropped them, then walked to the waters edge to wash off sweat and or dampen a cloth to wash off prints from bikes. That would leave the girls scent there.... NO?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Great map thank you. I always wondered if they were close to a freeway. I heard on the news last week that there is a prostitution ring in Ohio with girls as young as 11. You never know. Were they seen from the highway? Was it a crime of opportunity? God bless those girls. Deb

It's possible but seems unlikely due to local conditions on 13 July 2012.

Iowa has two seasons, winter and road construction. At that time, there was construction on that highway and both directions of the highway had been squeezed onto one side. When they have to do that, they move the two lanes over a bit so that there's room on either side for a shoulder. That means that the shoulders for either direction are much smaller than usual and anyone stopping would stick out. Literally.

Right where the lake is, the highway is considerably higher than the lake and trail. So there's a very steep slope down towards the trail and an eight foot fence at the bottom of the slope (Iowa interstates have 8 foot chainlink on either side to discourage deer from getting onto the interstate).

There is a hole in the chainlink caused by a highway accident fairly near where the bicycles were found but it's all overgrown and not real obvious.

Someone who parked their vehicle and walked down to the trail would probably come back to find a highway patrol officer overseeing the towing of their vehicle on grounds of being a hazard in a construction zone.

So someone who noticed the girls from the highway would have to get off the highway and then figure out how to get to Meyer's Lake via streets. There's no signs directing people to Meyer's Lake from the interstate.

It seems unlikely that the two girls would have hung around in just that spot long enough for that to happen.

Also, the parking lot is in clear sight from many different angles. I think it took local knowledge to know that there about Maiden Lane or the grassy area on the other side of the wooded area (the two places where a vehicle could be parked without being noticed).

 

[RNER]

I has some time yesterday to watch utube videos when the case was young, (because I was in the naughty chair) and Missy said the dogs tracked the girls scent to the waters edge.

I was there with ya! LOL

 

[GrainneDhu]

Respectfully shortened for length and space


So, in conclusion, A perpetrator can abduct a person and maybe wrestle with them as they are trying to restrain them and carry them to where ever they are bringing them, and if the sweat, hair follicles and dead skin cells get on the perpetrator clothing. The perpetrator can than go to another location and if he/she wash off their hands or shakes out their clothing it will leave scent of the victim.


And what would this have to do with this case you might ask....?

What IF the perpetrator Grabbed the girls at the beginning of the trail, wrestled with them as they were putting them in a vehicle and restraining them. Then walked the bikes to the gate and dropped them, then walked to the waters edge to wash off sweat and or dampen a cloth to wash off prints from bikes. That would leave the girls scent there.... NO?

Yes, that's possible.

The lake had pretty murky, smelly water and would not be my own first choice to freshen up but then, I'm not a person who has just grabbed two girls and has a strong motivation to look as normal as possible while driving away.

 

[cindersoot]

Respectfully shortened for length and space


So, in conclusion, A perpetrator can abduct a person and maybe wrestle with them as they are trying to restrain them and carry them to where ever they are bringing them, and if the sweat, hair follicles and dead skin cells get on the perpetrator clothing. The perpetrator can than go to another location and if he/she wash off their hands or shakes out their clothing it will leave scent of the victim.


And what would this have to do with this case you might ask....?

What IF the perpetrator Grabbed the girls at the beginning of the trail, wrestled with them as they were putting them in a vehicle and restraining them. Then walked the bikes to the gate and dropped them, then walked to the waters edge to wash off sweat and or dampen a cloth to wash off prints from bikes. That would leave the girls scent there.... NO?

I agree, except I can't see the perp going to the waters edge to wipe off sweat. But blood, yes.

 

[RNER]

I agree, except I can't see the perp going to the waters edge to wipe off sweat. But blood, yes.

If the dogs tracked the scent to the water's edge to blood or whatever else was washed off in the lake, wouldn't they also be tracking the perps scent?

From the point of contact with the girls to wherever the perp went (with or without the girls) would the dogs be tracking the girl's scent or the perps scent?

If girls went or were taken one direction, maybe to a vehicle, and perp went another direction, maybe to lake or woods or trail, would the dogs be able to distinguish the 2 scents?

 

[CN2Souls]

I agree, except I can't see the perp going to the waters edge to wipe off sweat. But blood, yes.

Thank you! :yes:.... I think you are soooooo Right on that.


:doh: I hadnt thought of that.

 

[CN2Souls]

If the dogs tracked the scent to the water's edge to blood or whatever else was washed off in the lake, wouldn't they also be tracking the perps scent?

From the point of contact with the girls to wherever the perp went (with or without the girls) would the dogs be tracking the girl's scent or the perps scent?

If girls went or were taken one direction, maybe to a vehicle, and perp went another direction, maybe to lake or woods or trail, would the dogs be able to distinguish the 2 scents?

They were only given the girls scent.... so they tracked that.

They wouldn't even think of tracking any other if they were commanded to track the girl scent...

 

[Ambi16]

I has some time yesterday to watch utube videos when the case was young, (because I was in the naughty chair) and Missy said the dogs tracked the girls scent to the waters edge.

Cindersoot...you crack me up. When I am catching up on this case, I always love to read your posts. You are the "honeybadger" of websleuths. Ever seen the hilariously inappropriate honeybadger on you tube?

"Cindersoot don't care!!"

Sorry had to add that. :worms:

 

[CN2Souls]

I agree, except I can't see the perp going to the waters edge to wipe off sweat. But blood, yes.

Or maybe the Perp wasn't only washing but what if he/ she were looking to see if the coast was clear to drop the bikes there and were just looking across and around the lake form that point at the waters edge.

 

[cindersoot]

If the dogs tracked the scent to the water's edge to blood or whatever else was washed off in the lake, wouldn't they also be tracking the perps scent?

From the point of contact with the girls to wherever the perp went (with or without the girls) would the dogs be tracking the girl's scent or the perps scent?

If girls went or were taken one direction, maybe to a vehicle, and perp went another direction, maybe to lake or woods or trail, would the dogs be able to distinguish the 2 scents?

The dogs knew the girls scent ( from something the family gave FBI), but the dogs didn't know the perps scent.

 

[cindersoot]

Or maybe the Perp wasn't only washing but what if he/ she were looking to see if the coast was clear to drop the bikes there and were just looking across and around the lake form that point at the waters edge.

I dought he would take the time to observe, he would drop the bikes and run. But see, if he did that I don't think he would of went that far up the trail to dump the bikes, unless...he came thru the gate from maiden ln. Hmmm

 

[cindersoot]

The honeybadger, lol. Love that guy.