IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #18

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  • #561
Im glad all my children are adults.
What should a child do if a kidnapper has a weapon and holds the weapon on another child?
I think the results may be 50/50.
I think half would run and half would stay with their friend, IMO
 
  • #562
Another one of the early stories, interesting (IMO) parts BBM with my comments in brackets.

http://news92fm.com/262304/police-have-no-clues-in-search-for-missing-iowa-girls/
Collins and Cook vanished from Cook’s grandmother’s home around noon, and were reported missing about three hours later.​
[what?! this sure has changed over time IMO.]​

Tammy Brousseau, Cook’s aunt, says she knew what to do if a stranger approached her.

“I taught her myself if they got a hold of your arm, drop to the ground, kick, bite, scream, do everything you can,” said Brousseau.​
[since it's been stated several times there was nothing to indicate a struggle, this goes back IMO to the abductor being someone they knew, most likely.]​


Speaking of it being an acquaintance, it makes me think about Scott Kimball. He was an ex-con and FBI informant, so played both sides of prison bars.

The perp in Lyric and Elizabeth's case could conceivably be, or have connections to, a fellow inmate of one of the parents?? I wonder if Lyric ever visited them while they were incarcerated?

Just another of my wandering thoughts about what could have happened to these precious girls, so :moo:
 
  • #563
Sorry everyone but I have to give up on the search for any further Florida connections - I just can't find much. Hope someone has better luck than I did! I can recall a few references to Florida but they were pretty loosely linked to the case (if linked at all).

- IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #16 where Sunlight suggested maybe they were on a extended Disney vacation with someone they know or trust (don't we all wish?!).

- There were posts here that someone who was linked to the family - I'm not even sure who it is based on the initials - was visiting Disneworld. IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #9 is one of the posts.

- IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #9 Aunt T. is quoted/paraphrased as saying something to the effect of Evansdale not being a big city like Orlando.

- A week or two ago there were some drug/meth-related arrests made I believe, but I've never seen anything that tied those to this case.

I believe Tammy said in an interview "well this isn't Orlando" or something similar. Never knew what she meant.

The other person who went to Disney World was JM (CL/camper creeper).

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
 
  • #564
Im glad all my children are adults.
What should a child do if a kidnapper has a weapon and holds the weapon on another child?
I think the results may be 50/50.
I think half would run and half would stay with their friend, IMO

Run run run! And the other child should fight and run IMO.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
 
  • #565
I vaguely remember someone posting about a family member who abducted their own kids (I think) and they were found in a hotel in FL. IIRC the kids were still very young and it sounded like it was some kind of custody dispute. Does that ring any bells?

I only saw this reported in a Chelsea Hoffman 'exclusive' news article with an un-named family member. If I understand correctly, this is a non-authoritative source?

ETA: If the family connection is correct, there was a WS forum set up for the previous event.
 
  • #566
Run run run! And the other child should fight and run IMO.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

I'm with you Jules! That's what I hope the girls did.
IMO
 
  • #567
I wonder if anyone told the girls what to do if they were threatened with a weapon.
 
  • #568
Speaking of it being an acquaintance, it makes me think about Scott Kimball. He was an ex-con and FBI informant, so played both sides of prison bars.

The perp in Lyric and Elizabeth's case could conceivably be, or have connections to, a fellow inmate of one of the parents?? I wonder if Lyric ever visited them while they were incarcerated?

Just another of my wandering thoughts about what could have happened to these precious girls, so :moo:

Good thinking!!
It could be possible that they took the little girl to the jail to visit one of the parents. Who is Lyrics bio father? is it Dan?
Just checking.
 
  • #569
Just want to say that my comment about an "extended" vacation was alluding to the possibility that they were in some form of protective custody due to possible threats related to Dan's pending trial. Protective custody by either the family or the FBI or some combination thereof. It was just brainstorming at the time...and wishful thinking...still is. MOO
 
  • #570
I only saw this reported in a Chelsea Hoffman 'exclusive' news article with an un-named family member. If I understand correctly, this is a non-authoritative source?

ETA: If the family connection is correct, there was a WS forum set up for the previous event.

Ahh, thanks. I knew I heard something like that but couldn't remember where. Take it with a grain of salt considering the source. :rolleyes:
 
  • #571
People think that teaching a child once, twice, several times to fight back will be effective. But there's all sorts of evidence that such teaching is not effective.

I always bring out this example because I think it speaks so directly to the problem. Studies of soldiers in battle from WWII, the Korean War and the Vietnam War show that only 10% of all soldiers on the battlefield shoot to kill the enemy.

We're not talking an 8 year old and 10 year old here. We're talking soldiers who have been through military basic training and who are in a situation where it is very clear their lives are in danger. And even so, only 10% of them actually try to kill the enemy.

Does anyone here think that Aunt TB took the girls for 16 weeks and spent all day every day teaching them to fight back? I don't and I think it would be considered child abuse to do so. In the US, we no longer expect children to do adult jobs.

So if the military can't reliably turn out a killer in 16 weeks of 24/7 effort, why does anyone think that one amateur dealing with two young girls would do so much better?

The military also has no way to predict which soldiers will fight back effectively. If they could predict that, then they could greatly streamline training techniques and job assignments. So saying that a given child would fight back because that child is feisty or stubborn is misguided.

There have been several posters to these threads who have recounted being attacked and they said that they did not fight back. In my opinion, that is completely normal and is what most people would do. As a society we start inhibiting our children from aggressive responses very early. We tell our children "use your words." We tell our children that it isn't okay to hit another child.

Is this bad? I don't think so! I think it is one of the foundations of having a civilised society, that the vast majority of members use their words rather than just resorting to fists when a co-worker hums that stupid song again.

But it does mean we have to accept that it is normal for people under attack to be inhibited from a physical response.

Of course in the earlier wars (WWII, Korea, Vietnam) the basic was necessarily shorter and less intense so as to have a quick infusion of new troops to send over and replace those lost. The soldiers were often very young and many falsified their ages to serve. The college bound tended to avoid service which skews the results of any theory based on data. In my studies, when children are adequately trained they can often react in the manner which befit their training. It does take more than just a talk or two. My daughter received martial arts defense training and when someone tried to approach her in our yard, she did just what she was taught. She was 9 then. She is 13 now and I still watch her like a hawk but I know she would not freeze up. We don't know what sort of preparation these girls had. The area, like some have said was one where you have an expectation of safety, the small town "everyone knows each other" safe place to live. I think that makes it easier for an unsavoury person to commit such a heinous deed.
You are correct in saying society tells children to use their words and not hit. But in cases where there is danger, some of us instil the idea that it is ok to defend yourself. My father NEVER used corporal punishment on any of us. But I was taught self-defense. In basic training it was reinforced to fight back. In one of my duty stations I role played OPFOR and gave new special forces soldiers a "lesson" in what to do if captured (We were VERY thorough). Now I teach my daughter. If she is ever a victim, she will fight back and she has even assured me she will leave evidence (bite marks, etc.). Being a peaceful person is great, though Sadly these days it seems kids need to learn how to survive or at least take a captor down with them. I wish the world were not so scary...and that these little girls were safe at home, complaining about summer being over.
 
  • #572
We've previously discussed what children have been taught and what they do in an actual situation. It seems that children, even young teenagers, forget everything they've learned when confronted with a traumatic situation. My son had a situation when he was about 13 where a very aggressive man was banging on the door demanding that he unlock the garage. It seems that there was a car parked in the garage and the man wanted it. Even though my son was alone and knew better, he was so stunned by the situation that he opened the door, got the key, opened the garage and only afterwards realized that he did all the wrong things. He had been told repeatedly ... and I mean repeatedly, for years ... to never open the door to a stranger when he was alone, yet that is exactly what he did. When I asked him why he did the wrong thing, the only answer he had was because he was scared.

I think that 10 and 8 year old girls would think that they were pretty grown up, but when confronted with a traumatic situation, they would just do what they were told ... even if they knew better.
 
  • #573
Of course in the earlier wars (WWII, Korea, Vietnam) the basic was necessarily shorter and less intense so as to have a quick infusion of new troops to send over and replace those lost. The soldiers were often very young and many falsified their ages to serve. The college bound tended to avoid service which skews the results of any theory based on data. In my studies, when children are adequately trained they can often react in the manner which befit their training. It does take more than just a talk or two. My daughter received martial arts defense training and when someone tried to approach her in our yard, she did just what she was taught. She was 9 then. She is 13 now and I still watch her like a hawk but I know she would not freeze up. We don't know what sort of preparation these girls had. The area, like some have said was one where you have an expectation of safety, the small town "everyone knows each other" safe place to live. I think that makes it easier for an unsavoury person to commit such a heinous deed.
You are correct in saying society tells children to use their words and not hit. But in cases where there is danger, some of us instil the idea that it is ok to defend yourself. My father NEVER used corporal punishment on any of us. But I was taught self-defense. In basic training it was reinforced to fight back. In one of my duty stations I role played OPFOR and gave new special forces soldiers a "lesson" in what to do if captured (We were VERY thorough). Now I teach my daughter. If she is ever a victim, she will fight back and she has even assured me she will leave evidence (bite marks, etc.). Being a peaceful person is great, though Sadly these days it seems kids need to learn how to survive or at least take a captor down with them. I wish the world were not so scary...and that these little girls were safe at home, complaining about summer being over.

Thank you for serving your country. I, too, served my country proudly for over 20 years.
 
  • #574
Of course in the earlier wars (WWII, Korea, Vietnam) the basic was necessarily shorter and less intense so as to have a quick infusion of new troops to send over and replace those lost. The soldiers were often very young and many falsified their ages to serve. The college bound tended to avoid service which skews the results of any theory based on data. In my studies, when children are adequately trained they can often react in the manner which befit their training. It does take more than just a talk or two. My daughter received martial arts defense training and when someone tried to approach her in our yard, she did just what she was taught. She was 9 then. She is 13 now and I still watch her like a hawk but I know she would not freeze up. We don't know what sort of preparation these girls had. The area, like some have said was one where you have an expectation of safety, the small town "everyone knows each other" safe place to live. I think that makes it easier for an unsavoury person to commit such a heinous deed.
You are correct in saying society tells children to use their words and not hit. But in cases where there is danger, some of us instil the idea that it is ok to defend yourself. My father NEVER used corporal punishment on any of us. But I was taught self-defense. In basic training it was reinforced to fight back. In one of my duty stations I role played OPFOR and gave new special forces soldiers a "lesson" in what to do if captured (We were VERY thorough). Now I teach my daughter. If she is ever a victim, she will fight back and she has even assured me she will leave evidence (bite marks, etc.). Being a peaceful person is great, though Sadly these days it seems kids need to learn how to survive or at least take a captor down with them. I wish the world were not so scary...and that these little girls were safe at home, complaining about summer being over.

:lurk: This is a great conversation!! :goodpost:
 
  • #575
:gthanks: Thank you Snowbunny and Thespyma! :yourock::usa::unksam::heartbeat::heartbeat:

God bless you! I appreciate your service from the bottom of my heart! :woohoo:
 
  • #576
The best strategy to teach for situations like this is to never leave with the abductor.

Kick, scream, fight, bite, be silent and run at the last second...instinct will take over regardless of what defence strategies have been learnt...its more important to teach your loved ones to NOT GET IN THE CAR.

Essentially teach flight, rather than fight. Statistically, you are done if you leave the site of the abduction.

Both my kids (10 and 14) have black belts in karate and on the first day years ago the instructor got the kids all pumped up about learning their first move. He asked "Are you ready? Are you sure you are paying attention because this is the most important technique I will ever teach you?" Once he was sure that the kids were ready and eager to learn this first karate move; he ran across the room with his arms waving in the air screaming at the top of his lungs. The first move they learned was the "run, yell, tell" move; the most important technique they will ever learn.

Even though both kids have the designation of black belt, I know without a doubt that I could overpower them if I wanted to and I have no doubt that in a stranger situation, if the abductor got ahold of them, they would not stand a chance. They know the escapes, the strikes and the kicks and have trophies to prove it, but that is very different than being in a real world situation. Without trying to break down their self confidence, I have let them know that they should never feel over safe just because of this belt color designation and they still need to use their brains first.
 
  • #577
Speaking of it being an acquaintance, it makes me think about Scott Kimball. He was an ex-con and FBI informant, so played both sides of prison bars.

The perp in Lyric and Elizabeth's case could conceivably be, or have connections to, a fellow inmate of one of the parents?? I wonder if Lyric ever visited them while they were incarcerated?

Just another of my wandering thoughts about what could have happened to these precious girls, so :moo:

I remember this guy. He killed 3 young ladies and his own uncle. He called himself Hannibal! He is serving 70 years. Should have been life +1 to make sure that $#_#(@#%& is for sure dead.
 
  • #578
Just want to say that my comment about an "extended" vacation was alluding to the possibility that they were in some form of protective custody due to possible threats related to Dan's pending trial. Protective custody by either the family or the FBI or some combination thereof. It was just brainstorming at the time...and wishful thinking...still is. MOO

Thanks Sunlight. That's what I thought but didn't want to put words in your 'virtual' mouth. :) I know, still wishful thinking for me too.
 
  • #579
I vaguely remember someone posting about a family member who abducted their own kids (I think) and they were found in a hotel in FL. IIRC the kids were still very young and it sounded like it was some kind of custody dispute. Does that ring any bells?

Thanks for the help on the Florida thoughts! This doesn't ring any bells for me, but I know there are stories like this all the time so it wouldn't surprise me.
 
  • #580
I believe Tammy said in an interview "well this isn't Orlando" or something similar. Never knew what she meant.

The other person who went to Disney World was JM (CL/camper creeper).

Ah thanks Jules! The Orlando comment seemed to just be a reference to the size of Evansdale IMO. I thought it was an odd city choice because at least a dozen other cities would come to mind first for me (New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.), but maybe she'd been there recently or something.

Thanks for the help with the initials too. :) I was hoping someone would remember that piece.
 
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