IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

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  • #321
TY, tlcox..
For those that don't have access to the history channel:

The Body Farm & Beyond - YouTube
Noted forensic anthropologist and author, Dr. Bill Bass, takes us on a tour of the world-famous Body Farm in Knoxville, TN.

Thank you very much for sharing this. I learned a lot just from this short clip. I had no idea a place like that even existed! Had never heard of this place before. Learn something new everyday :)

Thanks again for posting this!! :rocker:
 
  • #322
I agree with much of what you said. I don't however, feel that the fact that Elizabeth's parents would like to hold a celebration of life for their daughter marginalizes Lyric life at all. I think each girl deserves to be celebrated. I'm sure each of them had their own friends, hobbies, habits etc. My prayer would be that both families have a special time to celebrate the life of the lovely daughter they brought into the world. My prayers are with them.

:goodpost: thank you, that was kind of you to post this :)
 
  • #323
  • #324
Those stumps would suck as firewood because they were green, growing trees. I suppose some idjit might cut them down to put on a campfire but it would be a smoky, unpleasant fire. I can't see someone trekking into the woods to find firewood to season.

I agree with the person who said there may have been fibres or other evidence that a human being touched those trees. Probably not connected to the girls but there's always a chance.

The trees may also have been cut to increase access to the site for LE.

BBM thanks GrainneDhu, I was thinking the same thing! I can't imagine cutting down fresh growing trees for firewood. I'm not much of a camping person, but the few times I've gone I remember it was always a huge search for dead wood/trees that were dry.

I do think there might've been some other evidence on these trees. I hope so.
 
  • #325
GrainneDhu, I respect and honor your opinion, but even with the amount of awareness, there will still be those that are unaware.

In the adjacent communities before the Jessica Ridgeway abduction/murder, as well as in Westminister, CO community where she lived. There were several abduction attempts prior to hers. At least one of these attempts was by Austin Sigg; Jessica's abductor/murderer. Yet the community was not on high alert.
If a recidivist child predator is responsible for these tragic murders. No amount of awareness or vigilance is too much, imo...

I'm a dog trainer so please excuse me if the following seems insensitive; it isn't meant that way.

Puppies are born with immunity from the diseases their mothers are immune to (which includes immunity from vaccination). Until that maternal immunity wears off, vaccination shots don't work because their little bodies already have those immune cells. At some point the maternal immunity fades and then their bodies take over the job of producing immune cells. Unfortunately, there is a window period where maternal immunity is too low to offer reliable protection from disease but too high to trigger their bodies to produce immune cells. This window period lasts about a week and can happen anywhere between 6 and 24 weeks of age.

Research shows that the developmental period during which puppies easily accept novelty is between birth and 12-14 weeks old. Most anything that a puppy has a positive reaction to during this period of time will be accepted throughout the puppy's life as normal. Early socialisation is important for bite control, among other things (fear is by far the most common reason dogs bite).

So, look at those timelines. There's definitely a chance of a gap there, when the puppy needs socialisation experiences but may not be immune to diseases.

There was a time when vets strongly recommended that puppies not be exposed to the world at large until 16 weeks old, due to the fear of disease. But that also means that the puppy is not being exposed to life at large and runs the risk of not being able to accept normal things easily.

So what's a good dog owner to do? Wrap their puppy up in cotton wool and HEPA filtres, do lots of titre testing and not expose the puppy to the world until they are certain the puppy has good immunity? Or expose the puppy to the world, accepting the risk of disease?

Making that decision involves mentally balancing the risk factors. Is being safe from disease more important than learning about the world? Is being less likely to bite a human being more important than protecting the puppy from potential diseases?

There is no single correct answer, it all depends on the individual owner and puppy.

So how does all this apply to raising children? It seems to me that there is a direct correlation. It's natural to want to keep children totally, completely, as close to 100% safe as possible... except that is not always in the child's own best interests. Unlike dogs, children do grow up and eventually have to face the world on their own. So a wise parent realises that they have to release the death grip on their child at some point before the child hits 18 and can legally say "you can't stop me, nyah nyah nyah!" Or the child hits 18, 19, 20, 25, etc, and refuses to leave the parental home out of fear of the outside world.

I've seen what can happen to a kid whose life is too strictly controlled and bound by a parent. My best friend didn't even wait until he was 18 to say "I'm going and you can't stop me!" Then he spent 15 years doing the most dangerous stuff he could find in order to somehow prove to his mother that she couldn't stop him. I'm so grateful one of his early steps was to join the Army, which gave him a sort of safe environment to be a reckless daredevil (door gunner, sniper, etc).

Frankly, if he were my kid, his life would give me heart attacks. He scares me sometimes even now but the only thing I cannot say to him is "please don't do that because it is too risky." All I can say is "can I hold your beer for you?" Yeah, we're rednecks.

Each parent has to decide where the right balance between freedom and the attendant risks vs safety and the attendant risks lies. And no parent makes the perfect decision every single day.

Usually, the mistakes are not fatal but sometimes they are.
 
  • #326
This whole cut trees issue is bugging me...
Recently cut... define "recent"
last week? last month? with in the last 6 months?
Why would LE have taken a part of a tree as
evidence? I am not sure they did but...

To compare cutting tools?

Wasn't there someone close to the family that "cut trees"?

Did he work alone or did he have people that worked with him?
Could it have been a co-worker that took the girls?
 
  • #327
The orange crime scene flag puzzles me. I have been chewing on the idea of its meaning since 5 and now wonder if it means nothing at all. I read some msm report that referred to these markers been placed about the scene but we only see a pic of this one?

I think it was inadvertently dropped upon exitting and clearing the scene. If LE had just left them all behind I would expect the site to be littered with them.

:slaphead:

Sometimes I over obsess.

I got to go to a seminar for LE on investigation techniques. The presenter said something along the lines of "you know you are doing your job correctly if 95% of the stuff you collect at a crime scene has nothing to do with the crime."

I think you have the mindset to be a good crime scene investigator.
 
  • #328
I didn't realize Readlyn was only 7 minutes from Seven Bridges park. I shudder to think if the kidnapping CMF was accused of had been successful if the victim would also have been taken to Sevenbridges as well. :please:

when you look at google maps for seven bridges, it lists it as readlyn, iowa. So that was a big red flag for me when you said his crime was committed in Readlyn. Crazy.
 
  • #329
Perhaps the trees were cut and taken as evidence. Wasn't it stated that the girls were chained to trees? I've been away for a long time, needed a rest from being here....so forgive me if you've discussed this already.
 
  • #330
Aww...it's not that bad. The book was written by a graduate of the world-renowned Iowa Writers' Workshop:rocker: I can't vouch for the film, however.

Yes and he was a professor at UNI in Cedar Falls at the time.

Just goes to show that even the Writer's Workshop (which I grew up with) doesn't always work.
 
  • #331
Thank you very much for sharing this. I learned a lot just from this short clip. I had no idea a place like that even existed! Had never heard of this place before. Learn something new everyday :)

Thanks again for posting this!! :rocker:

There's a book written by Patricia Cornwell called "The Body Farm." It's fiction, but it's an interesting read.

ETA: I can guarantee you it's better than Bridges of Madison County.
 
  • #332
To people who do not share them, fetishes usually seem freaky. No one sees someone whose arousal includes breasts, legs or butts to be fetishistic because it seems normal.

To me, the freaky part of the above is the nonconsensual nature of carrying it out. If I found out a friend had to lick feet to become sexually aroused (the definition of a fetish), that wouldn't bother me. It would bother me if said friend was breaking into people's homes in order to do so, not because licking feet is wrong but because breaking into homes is wrong.

Good point GrainneDhu. If someone wants to lick feet and someone else likes their feet being licked... well, go for it, IMO.

What I do hope in this case is that there's something (a "fetish" or "calling card" or whatever else) that makes it even a little bit easier to find whoever did this to these girls. And as awful as it is that they're no longer here, I sure hope it wasn't a sexual crime or one where they were kept around a long time for some sick reason.
 
  • #333
  • #334
Yes and he was a professor at UNI in Cedar Falls at the time.

Just goes to show that even the Writer's Workshop (which I grew up with) doesn't always work.

That's true. I had a very hard time getting into Gilead by Marilynne Robinson, who is an excellent writer.

UNI isn't all that bad either...it's not U of Iowa, but not every school can be so lucky.:moo:
 
  • #335
  • #336
Perhaps the trees were cut and taken as evidence. Wasn't it stated that the girls were chained to trees? I've been away for a long time, needed a rest from being here....so forgive me if you've discussed this already.

BBM

Hi, kseal07, welcome back.

No, it definitely has not been said that the girls were chained to trees. That's just been some of our speculation in an effort to figure out why the trees were cut down.

At this time, all we know is that Lyric and Lizzie are dead, and their bodies were found at Seven Bridges Wildlife Area. Anything beyond that is just typical WS speculation in lieu of any info from LE.

We did have some delightful wild pig conversations yesterday, so be sure not to miss those.

Glad you're back with us, I remember your posts from earlier on.
 
  • #337
Yes and he was a professor at UNI in Cedar Falls at the time.

Just goes to show that even the Writer's Workshop (which I grew up with) doesn't always work.

I couldn't sit through the movie in the theater...boring...like watching paint dry.
 
  • #338
This whole cut trees issue is bugging me...
Recently cut... define "recent"
last week? last month? with in the last 6 months?
Why would LE have taken a part of a tree as
evidence? I am not sure they did but...

To compare cutting tools?

Wasn't there someone close to the family that "cut trees"?

Did he work alone or did he have people that worked with him?
Could it have been a co-worker that took the girls?

Oh my gosh gngr snap you're right. I had forgotten that until you mentioned it. These are older articles but per this one: http://www.examiner.com/article/police-search-for-two-missing-black-hawk-county-children "Drew and Heather work at Johnson's Bakery & Planetary Tree Service"

And this one: http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_94b14cc4-cf32-11e1-9131-001a4bcf887a.html

"The Collins own Planetary Tree Service in Evansdale. M****** S******, who also owns a local tree service with her husband, volunteered to hand out food and drinks on Sunday." (name asterisked out by me)

Yes... there's an association with tree cutting services. Related? Who knows, but good memory.
 
  • #339
This whole cut trees issue is bugging me...
Recently cut... define "recent"
last week? last month? with in the last 6 months?
Why would LE have taken a part of a tree as
evidence? I am not sure they did but...

To compare cutting tools?

Wasn't there someone close to the family that "cut trees"?

Did he work alone or did he have people that worked with him?
Could it have been a co-worker that took the girls?

BBM

I don't know about tree cutting, but Drew Collins owns a tree trimming business. However, I can't believe for one minute that he was involved in this. JMO.
 
  • #340
Thank you very much for sharing this. I learned a lot just from this short clip. I had no idea a place like that even existed! Had never heard of this place before. Learn something new everyday :)

Thanks again for posting this!! :rocker:


YW, StormyNights. There are many body farms around the country now thanks to Dr. Bass's TN body farm model. There is also a collection of books/novels written about Dr. Bass.


http://www.jeffersonbass.com/

The Inquisitor's Key

The most riveting and ambitious novel to date in Jefferson Bass's New York Times bestselling Body Farm mystery series,
 
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