IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #3

[brighidin]

Ollipop: you need to upload your pictures somewhere, then you can link to them here. Go to min.us and upload your pics. I don't think you have to sign up, but I don't know how big your pics are. Once they are uploaded to the web, click on the "go advanced" button, rather than the "post quick reply." YOu will see a little icon (I think it looks like a mountain.) Click on it and enter the url of the picture and they should show up here.

 

[brighidin]

At this point I believe the girls are in the Lake. Would love to be wrong though.

I also fear that they are in the lake. I can understand why the parents do not seem to think so: as Ms. Facetious posted upthread, or in the last thread, if they are in the lake, they have passed, but if they aren't there is a chance they are still alive.

I can't even imagine how the families are feeling.

 

[StacyMarie83]

I'm discounting Mr Carpenter's sighting as well.

For one thing, the bicyclist who swerved to avoid the two bikes on the trail at 12:27 pm seems like a much more credible witness. He has the cell phone call to anchor the time to within a couple minutes.

For another, even though he claimed he was familiar with the girls, he didn't know what colour bikes they rode. He also implied he'd been seeing the two girls around for weeks but Lyric only started staying in Evansdale with Elizabeth 5 days previously.

I don't think Mr Carpenter is lying; I think he is mistaking some other pair of girls for Elizabeth and Lyric.

I may be wrong, maybe Mr Carpenter did see Elizabeth and Lyric.

Another reason LE may be sticking so firmly to 12:15 pm as the last known sighting is that they may not want to tighten up the timeline any further than it already has been. If the girls were abducted (and I am fairly sure they were), then only the perpetrator and the two girls know precisely when it happened.

If LE has it further pinpointed, then they can use that knowledge to help sort through tips for a more efficient use of manpower.

If that is the case: I would have to say someone followed the girls there, whether it was from grams or closer to meyer's lake.

If they left grams at 12:15 they would of been taken/drown within 5 minutes of being there (iirc it is a 10 minute ride from gram to the lake). If grams time is right and they left at 11:30...that opens a wide gap of time a perp would have to hurt/take these two girls, but still less than 45 minutes. I also believe 1 perp could do this, a perp would only need one girl to make the other come with.

 

[Ollipop]

I don't know how to directly upload them to this site ... I started a photobucket account to post images. Just upload them there - and then, after they're uploaded, hover your mouse over the image, options appear below the image --> select the bottom option (click on it), that creates a copy, and paste that (control V) into a message. That should work. I can help with a map tomorrow afternoon (in about 15 hours).

Had issues with my first attempt, followed the "Quick Links" to try to create an album. After selecting the photos and waiting for them to upload, there was something about a "security token."

I'll try again in a bit...got quite a few photos.

 

[StacyMarie83]

I also fear that they are in the lake. I can understand why the parents do not seem to think so: as Ms. Facetious posted upthread, or in the last thread, if they are in the lake, they have passed, but if they aren't there is a chance they are still alive.

I can't even imagine how the families are feeling.

I personally don't think they are in the lake with no clothes or shoes floating up, there are grates on the drainage, the dogs scent didn't lead to the lake, etc.

Out of curiosity, why do you think they are?

Poor families indeed! So sad either way!

 

[mrsu]

Yes, I do believe that was last year, 2011, and from reading those, she was staying with her cousin. Wanted to go home...It may have been around the time her mother was in the hospital?

That would have been Elizabeth's mother in the hospital, NOT Lyric's.

 

[SapphireSteel]

My opinion based on what I've read so far -

The girls had dumped their bikes and were playing on/near the dock.

There is an access trail to the dock, presumably for cars.

SOMEONE THEY KNEW drove into that access trail, and called them over, then abducted them.

:moo:

 

[Jules71]

So what about the man the Aunt approached at the lake that said he saw them riding their bikes heading east (from the park/dock area) at 2:30? Is it credible? If the bike rider saw the bikes at 12:27, but not the girls - both sightings don't seem possible.

I tend to believe the girls left Gram's at 11:30 - the biker saw the bikes on the lake path at 12:27 - Aunt (Tammy) and Gram came to lake at 2:45 looking for them. They said LE swarmed the place at 3. Bikes found about 4. See I don't think it would take an hour for LE to find their bikes on the trail. How long does it take to walk around the lake?

 

[brighidin]

I personally don't think they are in the lake with no clothes or shoes floating up, there are grates on the drainage, the dogs scent didn't lead to the lake, etc.

Out of curiosity, why do you think they are?

Poor families indeed! So sad either way!

I'm not completely sure. I would guess that statistically, it is more likely that a young child would drown than be abducted (nothing to back me up here, just a guess).

Having said that, I agree with your assessment, so I guess I have no idea.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Good insight. I wonder though (humour me ) Would a perps first concern when accosting a child be " I bet this little girl has a cell in her purse. Better toss it." If that is the case, wouldn't he/she first make sure the cell was off or otherwise not functioning in order to prevent it being pinged via GPS ? Secondly, what if whomever confronted the girls KNEW Elizabeth had a cell phone in her purse ? Meaning they knew Elizabeth prior to the incident and were aware that she carried the phone with her.

SBM

Well, having followed crime stories for over 40 years, my first thought would be to get rid of any possible cell phones. If I planned to transport my victim, I wouldn't care at all if the phone was pinging, just get rid of the thing because I'm planning to be long gone.

However, I'm not a criminal (you'll have to trust me on that) and I have seen over and over that many criminals are... um... not the sharpest knives in the block. It may be due to high adrenaline levels (adrenaline gets us ready for action but knocks points off our IQs as a trade-off).

So, who knows? Maybe Elizabeth's first reaction to seeing Lyric accosted was to start fumbling with her purse.

 

[StacyMarie83]

I'm not completely sure. I would guess that statistically, it is more likely that a young child would drown than be abducted (nothing to back me up here, just a guess).

Having said that, I agree with your assessment, so I guess I have no idea.

That's very true though. I guess it's because I don't want to the think the worst even though my mind was there from the beginning lease:

Any locals think that if the girls swam on the end of the lake where their bikes were found----anyone would here them scream? Whether it was a drowning or abduction???

 

[Jules71]

My opinion based on what I've read so far -

The girls had dumped their bikes and were playing on/near the dock.

There is an access trail to the dock, presumably for cars.

SOMEONE THEY KNEW drove into that access trail, and called them over, then abducted them.

:moo:

The dock and bikes are on opposite sides of the lake. Dock is at north end and bikes were at south east end. The bikes were on the bike path that goes around the lake. There is a wooded area there with a trail that possibly goes thru to Evans/Arbutus. There is also a grassy area there and homes.

I heard the dogs picked up their scent on the dock and at the bikes. I don't know for sure though about the scent trail.

 

[mrsu]

I can say I found it odd as well. He just lives in a weird spot for bike riders to turn around (I was near his house today, I believe). I honestly think he was confusing them with other kids, and/or commenting that kids/riders in general ride by his house. I can't think of any reason they would discount it for no reason, so it may have been speculative or maybe he has been deemed non-credible.

Also, just in general, it seems LE has all along been very hesitant/reluctant to discuss or acknowledge the possibility of an abduction, whereas the family is openly assuming it. The family's "spin" on info seems to lean in that direction, whereas LE's assessment remains neutral.

I am still haunted by the feeling that those bikes were not ridden there by the girls. I don't know why, its just such a perfectly-chosen spot to go to in order to be completely secluded, and the spot is so small. It seems like a perfect spot to hide and/or dump something that you may not want found immediately. I'm wondering if those tracks I found mean anything, like a truck backed in there where they'd be out of sight both from the road and the trail, and threw the bikes over the fence onto the trail, dropping the purse along the way, in an effort to stall/misdirect attention towards the lake.

But why not just dump the bikes in the tall grass? Why risk even walking anywhere with them or tossing over a fence?

 

[liz b.]

I find this wording extremely interesting:

Wow, TY I had not seen this...MOO

 

[Ollipop]

My opinion based on what I've read so far -

The girls had dumped their bikes and were playing on/near the dock.

There is an access trail to the dock, presumably for cars.

SOMEONE THEY KNEW drove into that access trail, and called them over, then abducted them.

:moo:

The dock is across the lake from where the bikes were found. A long walk, silly to do so if you had a bike. There are two docks, one for fishing, one for boats. You can see across the lake pretty well - enough to probably identify someone you knew.

Where the bikes were found, the trail is bound on both sides by 8ft of chain link fence. Over the fence to the south, up a steep and overgrown bank, is a 4-lane divided interstate highway compressed down to 2 lanes ATM, very busy, very congested. Over the fence to the north is the lake, with the distance between the fence and the lake ranging from 1 ft to maybe 15 ft. There is a gate right there in the lake-side fence, leading to a rock jetty that allows access to the drain that they are currently using to empty the lake. Most cars would fit between the fences on the trail, but never onto the jetty, and if a car were on the trail there, it would be both incredibly suspicious and illegal, as well as completely blocking the trail, which approaches blindly from around slight bends and uphill in both directions.

I don't know where people are thinking the dock comes in to play here. I never heard that the dogs keyed on the docks, nor that they even got to that side of the lake. The docks - as of now - are dismantled and stacked in the parking lot of the park area. I have pics that would show this, having trouble getting them uploaded.

Also, if the girls are in the lake, they somehow got WAY into the lake. Most of the lake along the shore is very shallow and muddy. I've seen pics of searchers walking almost across it in water that is only nipple deep in the middle. I will be shocked and surprised (altho, sadly, maybe a little relieved) if they are found in there when that lake empties.

 

[Kimster]

We're not going to discuss the family's demeanor at this stage of the game. The family is off limits unless news comes out that changes that course. We don't even know for sure if a crime has been committed yet! Let's be kind to them, folks.

 

[StacyMarie83]

The dock is across the lake from where the bikes were found. A long walk, silly to do so if you had a bike. There are two docks, one for fishing, one for boats. You can see across the lake pretty well - enough to probably identify someone you knew.

Where the bikes were found, the trail is bound on both sides by 8ft of chain link fence. Over the fence to the south, up a steep and overgrown bank, is a 4-lane divided interstate highway compressed down to 2 lanes ATM, very busy, very congested. Over the fence to the north is the lake, with the distance between the fence and the lake ranging from 1 ft to maybe 15 ft. There is a gate right there in the lake-side fence, leading to a rock jetty that allows access to the drain that they are currently using to empty the lake. Most cars would fit between the fences on the trail, but never onto the jetty, and if a car were on the trail there, it would be both incredibly suspicious and illegal, as well as completely blocking the trail, which approaches blindly from around slight bends and uphill in both directions.

I don't know where people are thinking the dock comes in to play here. I never heard that the dogs keyed on the docks, nor that they even got to that side of the lake. The docks - as of now - are dismantled and stacked in the parking lot of the park area. I have pics that would show this, having trouble getting them uploaded.

Also, if the girls are in the lake, they somehow got WAY into the lake. Most of the lake along the shore is very shallow and muddy. I've seen pics of searchers walking almost across it in water that is only nipple deep in the middle. I will be shocked and surprised (altho, sadly, maybe a little relieved) if they are found in there when that lake empties.

i previously saw that when the lake was drained awhile back the doc broke. So this could be the reason for taking it down before the water is gone and it collapses or breaks.

 

[Ollipop]

But why not just dump the bikes in the tall grass? Why risk even walking anywhere with them or tossing over a fence?

Well, I agree with you. I don't understand the criminal mind, lol. I suppose someone on the trail spotting the bikes back there would be suspicious, whereas bikes actually seem to belong on a trail. The guy who had to swerve to miss them didn't think it odd at all until he'd heard the girls were missing and that their bikes were found there.

My scenario goes something more like this:
Someone lured these girls into a vehicle way back up by their house, maybe even in the parking lot right in front of their homes.

Then, to avoid two bikes laying unattended in a parking lot raising suspicion, they threw them in the back and drove down to dump them in the lake, but getting there realized there was not good spot to do that. They may have happened upon the pump/lift house and wooded area while circling the lake by vehicle, backed in to those woods expecting to dump the bikes in the lake, but discovered the lake wasn't deep enough to even conceal two bikes lying on their sides, so threw them on the trail, maybe just to buy time and/or misdirect any investigation.

Or, possibly, the bikes were left behind, and some teens/low-lifes came across them in "downtown" Evansdale, hopped on them and quickly rode to the trail and to the lake where they could rifle thru the contents of the purse out of view. Finding nothing, they threw the purse and simply walked on down the trail, leaving the bikes.

Given the timeline discrepancies, I think there is the possibility that we have up to an hour between when grandmother saw them and trail-rider swerved to miss their bikes, then another 2-3 hours before anyone realized they were missing.

 

[Jules71]

Some good sites in Iowa for sleuthing:

Court records:
https://www.iowacourts.state.ia.us

Parcel Search / Property records:
http://co.black-hawk.ia.us/depts/bhentry.htm
click yes, and then click address

Iowa Dept of Corrections
http://www.doc.state.ia.us/OffenderInfo.asp

Facebook for missing girls:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/343090685768618/
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Help-...43346585739588
https://www.facebook.com/events/496061437074360/

Lyric's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/lyric.morrissey?sk=friends&v=friends&ft_ref=fbsa

 

[Soulmagent]

I sympathize with your plight but at the same time it saddens me that you feel the need to restrict your loved ones freedom. I grew up in the "Serial Killer" age (as it seems like you have). Bundy, Green River, Gacy, Dahmer, Kemper. This was the 'prime' serial killing era. But somehow we managed to make it out unscathed. I do agree that society has become more "sexed and violent'", something Bundy warned society about (see youtube). But truth be told, I cannot remember a missing persons/child case in my city/area in atleast 15+ years, if then. I guess its all in how you interpret the information you have and how much you buy in to the "fear" that is disseminated. Otherwise dont get me wrong, It is never wrong to safeguard your child how you seem fit.

I remember seeing bundy on TV the day he died.

I lived in Virginia as a child.
We did have these abductions arround us and serial killings often impacted my small town near DC, even years before I was born starting with Melvin rees.
George knowles from flordia commited a murder within miles of my home.
The Lyons sisters were abducted from my mothers home town.
Johnn hurdley and James McQueary from fairfax virginia prior to my birth but remembered here vividly. They went to the same public school as friends of mine .

Melissa Brannon ,Sofia Silver, the lisk girls, Jennifer short and alot of other well known and not so well known cases of teens and adults. Morgan Harrington, Samantha Clark ,Tyreke davis and Bethany Decker

The vampire killer .

Then add in the colonial parkway murders and the route 29 stalker , the D.C sniper , Marc evonitz
My kids go nowhere either. Half the time I dont feel safe putting them on the school bus.

I guess location is everything...My kids go no where.